The death of Tyre Nichols

[Toni]

police applying street justice. He ran, they punished him by beating him.

This is about the worst crime it's possible to commit. Not because of the impact on the victim, serious though that is. But because it's a crime against the entire structure of society.

Police are not allowed to punish people. Courts punish. Police detain and investigate.

Appropriating to oneself powers reserved to the state, and abusing your position as an agent of the state in order to achieve that appropriation, is as bad as it gets.

Inflicting grievous harm on a person is a lesser crime than inflicting it on society.

Police who exceed their authority should be penalised proportionately to the magnitude of their crime - they should be looking at life in jail for even conspiring with colleagues to punish any citizen, much less actually meting out such punishment.

"street justice" is just another way to say "police overreach and brutality". Justice is the sole prerogative of a court of law.

I'd 'like' this 10 times if I could.

 

[TomC]

If cops are resigning because their delicate snowflake feelings are hurt, then they obviously signed up for purely egotistical reasons.

I don't see that as obvious.
Tom

But you think it's BLM's fault.

Is that a question or an assertion?
Tom

 

[Oleg]

There has been a large increase in crime in general and in homicides both in urban and in rural areas. While crime rates are lower in rural areas, these same areas have seen a dramatic increase in rates (20-25%, depending on source). No one seems certain of reasons but some are speculating it is related to COVID and the resulting decrease in social interactions at places such as churches, etc. Some localities have seen much more dramatic increases in rates.

My personal guess would be that it is a more direct result from increase in illegal drug usage, based on what I am seeing in local news.

But why the sudden uptick of black male homicide in mid-May 2020? It wasn’t Covid. When the pandemic began crime dropped. And Covid was global yet the spike in homicide was a uniquely US phenomenon. This same pattern happened after Ferguson. Demonize the cops. Cops pull back. Homicide goes up.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

If police were also screaming that they weren't going to do their jobs, it's kind of on them:
Police do bad stuff ==> Police reforms ==> Police don't do their jobs because they are mad about police reforms.

The root cause isn't the proximal cause but instead the cause of the proximal cause, which goes back to police.

In any case, there is some interesting firearm data...

When the pandemic began, people started buying guns, probably out of fear. Some of those guns then eventually made their way to those who might commit murder or at least there is a correlation between firearm access and firearm homicides.

Firearm Purchasing and Firearm Violence in the First Months of the Coronavirus Pandemic in the United States

Importance Firearm violence is a significant public health and safety problem in the United States. A surge in firearm purchases following the onset of the coronavirus pandemic may increase rates of firearm violence. Objective To estimate the association between changes in firearm purchasing...

www.medrxiv.org

None of which seems to have anything to do with this thread about Tyre Nichols death, since as stated before there was a significant police shortage in Memphis since 2014 due to city budget debt. So if there were unqualified persons in the force the primary reason for it was trying to balance the budget in 2014 even though it had been stated that it would lead to less safety.

 

[Oleg]

None of which seems to have anything to do with this thread about Tyre Nichols death,

I’d agree. The Ferguson and Minneapolis effect has little to do with the beating of Nichols.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, but the point was that they were trying to save black people and ended up with more black people dead due to their actions. The fact that more white people also ended up dead is irrelevant to the point.

They were trying to save black people from police violence.

So it doesn't matter how bad the result if the intent was good? You would throw the switch to divert the trolley from the track with one person to the track with ten people?

What are you babbling about now?

Once again, you resort to insults rather than address points you do not have answers for.

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Evidence has already been presented and never addressed. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it go away.

Where has it been presented?

This very thread, amongst others.

You don't like it, you ignore it and turn around and ask for evidence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your alternative explanation to an increase of 90 homicides from 2019 to 2020 in Memphis is exactly what? Clearly, you are saying it has something to do with BLM. Are you saying police didn't want to police people because BLM? Are you saying BLM killed the 90 people? Are you saying Memphis defunded the police because of BLM and that caused the homicides? Are you saying police quit their jobs because BLM? When you use extremist language like "BLM began its carnage" it doesn't sound like any of that and so could you try harder.

The cops were being thrown under the bus--things like firing to appease the public before an actual investigation was done. (Just look at this case--two people who weren't even at the beating were fired.)

Of course they will react by minimizing the chance of being in such a situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

has it been presented?

Oleg #363
Tom

That isn't very good evidence. Try 233: https://iidb.org/threads/the-death-of-tyre-nichols.26987/page-12#post-1081118

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If cops are resigning because their delicate snowflake feelings are hurt, then they obviously signed up for purely egotistical reasons. All that means is they should never had been cops in the first place. Fuck 'em.

I’d guess that the high resignations and low recruitment is due to no cop wanting to be the next viral video. If an interaction doesn’t go 100% perfect, the cop’s life could be ruined. But fewer cops gives us more crime and homicides. So, if that’s what you like.

Beats the alternative.

So more dead blacks is better than less dead blacks? Sorry, this isn't Stormfront.

 

[TomC]

has it been presented?

Oleg #363
Tom

That isn't very good evidence. Try 233: https://iidb.org/threads/the-death-of-tyre-nichols.26987/page-12#post-1081118

There's been several posts that basically got crickets. Yours is one.

Anything that doesn't support the BLM narrative either gets ignored or mischaracterized. "Police are oppressors, criminals are victims."
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Evidence has already been presented and never addressed. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it go away.

Where has it been presented?

This very thread, amongst others.

I'm asking you for help here... and you ain't helping! Throw me a bone for crying out loud and just give me a link to wherever it is in this thread.

You don't like it, you ignore it and turn around and ask for evidence.

I've been asking and all you've been doing is saying I'm asking. I keep asking, because I HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN IT.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

police applying street justice. He ran, they punished him by beating him.

This is about the worst crime it's possible to commit. Not because of the impact on the victim, serious though that is. But because it's a crime against the entire structure of society.

Police are not allowed to punish people. Courts punish. Police detain and investigate.

Quit preaching to the choir. I'm explaining, not saying it's right. Most of the legitimate gripes about the police stem from the street justice approach.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, but the point was that they were trying to save black people and ended up with more black people dead due to their actions. The fact that more white people also ended up dead is irrelevant to the point.

They were trying to save black people from police violence.

So it doesn't matter how bad the result if the intent was good? You would throw the switch to divert the trolley from the track with one person to the track with ten people?

What are you babbling about now?

Once again, you resort to insults rather than address points you do not have answers for.

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.

No, BLM is about reducing police violence towards blacks.

But your argument is that the uptick in murders is due to a reduced police presence. That makes it the police’s responsibility.

I don’t think the uptick is due to a reduced police presence.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But the record remains: you were blaming BLM for black people getting killed. And it turns out that was a lie some people are trying to promulgate, and they tricked you into adding your voice and passing on their lie.

And where was it proven a lie?

Where has this been rebutted: https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-lives-matter-protest-crime-ferguson-effects-murder

From the article, it states a couple things.

It’s worth noting that Campbell didn’t subject the homicide findings to the same battery of statistical tests as he did the police killings since they were not the main focus of his research. (He intends to do more research on how these protests affected crime rates.)

and

The reasons for this rise in murders are not fully known, but one possible explanation is that police morale drops following scrutiny, leading officers to reduce their efforts and thereby emboldening criminals. Another is that members of the public voluntarily withdraw from engagements with the police after a police homicide delegitimizes the justice system in their eyes. (More on this below.)

Aren't you the King of reminding people about Correlation and Causation?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Once again, you resort to insults rather than address points you do not have answers for.

The supposed purpose of BLM was to save black lives. I'm pointing out the actual result was to kill blacks. The trolley (think of the standard trolley problem) was diverted from the guy killed by the police onto a whole bunch of people killed by criminals.

No, BLM is about reducing police violence towards blacks.

But your argument is that the uptick in murders is due to a reduced police presence. That makes it the police’s responsibility.

I don’t think the uptick is due to a reduced police presence.

It could be. But I haven't seen a case be made to make that conclusion remotely as definitive as being alleged by LP et al.

 

[Oleg]

I don’t think the uptick is due to a reduced police presence.

So why the sudden uptick of black homicide at the time the police pulled back?

 

[Gospel]

I think this has already been addressed but here goes.

Police messed up → BLM → Police quit &/or pulled back

BLM was a result of actions taken by the police. Meanwhile Black on Black crime was a thing before and will continue well after BLM. If you truly believe that black people haven't been trying to bring attention to black on black crime I can't honestly do anything other than call you and anyone that believes that a fool. So using it as a crutch to not examine the current behavior of our police force, the historic effects and purpose of said police force in regards to the black community is hurting no one but yourself. In this day and age, the same police force given unconditional authority over niggers (yeah I said it) has already begun to turn on their owners. White people who don't waive their rights immediately upon encountering them are getting killed as you read this. Thanks for nothing.

 

[laughing dog]

I don’t think the uptick is due to a reduced police presence.

So why the sudden uptick of black homicide at the time the police pulled back?

I think there was a lot of pent up rage in the communities where there protests that was ignited by police violence.

In the US, the police are reactive not proactive. While some killings may have been due to a reduced police presence, I don’t buy that the police would have prevented them. But if I did buy that theory, then clearly the police are also responsible for the consequences of their choices.

 

[Oleg]

I think there was a lot of pent up rage in the communities where there protests that was ignited by police violence.

It's this peculiar but dangerous conspiracy theory on the left the the police are just shooting up black people for no reason. Another example of statstical ignorace. So if there is "pent up rage," it because black people have been persistently lied to.