Drag Shows

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

This is a good post.

I really struggle with the entire concept that children are "forced" to go through puberty, and that they "ought to" have a choice about it. To me it seems as irrational as saying that people are "forced" to walk upright due to the interaction between the gravity and our evolved phenotype... and that people "ought to" have the choice to levitate instead. I have a really hard time even locating a point of shared perspective from which to have any meaningful discussion.

It feels like trying to have a discussion about the fastest route from Kyoto to San Diego when the other person truly believes the earth is flat.

That isn't what Toni said. What Toni expressed, and I agree, minors shouldn't be able to make these decisions without a ton of oversight. Anyone saying children should have carte blanche would be wrong.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

This is a good post.

I really struggle with the entire concept that children are "forced" to go through puberty, and that they "ought to" have a choice about it. To me it seems as irrational as saying that people are "forced" to walk upright due to the interaction between the gravity and our evolved phenotype... and that people "ought to" have the choice to levitate instead. I have a really hard time even locating a point of shared perspective from which to have any meaningful discussion.

It feels like trying to have a discussion about the fastest route from Kyoto to San Diego when the other person truly believes the earth is flat.

That isn't what Toni said. What Toni expressed, and I agree, minors shouldn't be able to make these decisions without a ton of oversight. Anyone saying children should have carte blanche would be wrong.

My only caveat that I would present to this is that due to the time sensitive nature of the treatment requested and the vanishingly small impact of treatment for short periods of time, that access be granted to blockers (not non-endogenous hormones) for a SHORT period (no longer than 60 days following endocrinologist evaluations) while initial oversight begins.

In short, "trust but verify".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In most cases (?) I would presume this isn't coming out of the blue, however, as noted, a number of professional layers wrapped in this. You read so many people thinking it is as simple as a kid trying on mommy's shoes, which is ridiculous.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

I agree and from what I've read, this is exactly how a trans child is able to get the treatment they require. The sad part is that so many states that are controlled by ignorant, far right crazies are preventing these children from getting the help and treatment they need, which sadly leads to an increase in depression, suicidal ideation and even suicide.

The problem is that in the states with incredibly lax approaches... we're getting children who are effectively being sterilized, and who are removing their breasts, and who are NOT having their pre-existing mental health concerns addressed, and whose rate of suicidal ideation and attempts continue to be at high levels.

The most recent research on this shows that there is no change in depression or suicidality for kids who get affirmative treatments. And in this case, no change means that the degree of depression and suicidality that led them to seek treatment in the first place is not alleviated.

Please don't use mental health conditions as a threat to enact policy. "Let kids do what they want or else they will kill themselves" is not a very good approach to policy.

I've not heard of anything like that, but of course, I'm mostly familiar with the treatment in Atlanta, since I live within 50 miles of the city. Could you please specify which states you are referring to, and add some documentation from a reliable source. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm alway skeptical of such claims without them being backed up with documentation from either a real source of news or a governmental source that explains what is permitted when it comes to helping trans children. Are you saying that these treatments are being done legally with the support of state government?

Please substantiate your claims. The treatment that is given in ATL is reasonable. Unfortunately, our Christian idiot governor and his pack are making it close to impossible for trans children to get help, and since I think that suicidal ideations and depression are serious issues, that put the life of the child at risk, I will continue to mention this problem. You only seem concerned about the possible side effects of treatment, while some of us are more concerned about the side effects when treatment is asked for but isn't available.

I can promise you as a retired nurse with 42 years of experience that every treatment, medication, procedure or surgery has risks. The risks have to be balanced along with the benefits before a treatment is offered. I'm certainly not expert, but I think I've read enough information about the difficulties that trans children face to know that we have failed them. I hope we can do better in the future, but it's going to be a long journey.

Btw, I'm not writing policy. I'm just discussing the political impact and possible risk factors involved with a medical treatment.

 

[Emily Lake]

My only caveat that I would present to this is that due to the time sensitive nature of the treatment requested and the vanishingly small impact of treatment for short periods of time, that access be granted to blockers (not non-endogenous hormones) for a SHORT period (no longer than 60 days following endocrinologist evaluations) while initial oversight begins.

In short, "trust but verify".

Okay. Let's start here.

I can do 60 days. When I had to take Lupron several years ago, my surgeon was adamant that I needed to have a decision made and a procedure scheduled within a 90 day period, because anything longer than that introduced additional serious side effects do to the Lupron itself.

Here's the complication I see. A lot of the teens presenting with gender dysphoria have a history of other mental health conditions and issues. They frequently have histories of depression, anxiety disorders, and frequently autism.

Do you think that 60 days is sufficient time to determine whether or not the pre-existing conditions are sufficiently addressed and managed to even consider dysphoria being a direct result of a neurological disconnect to one's sexed body? Do you think that's sufficient time for a good psychologist to actually address and mitigate those conditions?

 

[Emily Lake]

In most cases (?) I would presume this isn't coming out of the blue, however, as noted, a number of professional layers wrapped in this. You read so many people thinking it is as simple as a kid trying on mommy's shoes, which is ridiculous.

There are also a whole lot of reports of it actually coming out of the blue.

That's where a significant concern about ROGD as a social contagion comes from. It's not something invented from whole cloth, it's based on the observation of a lot of parents and clinicians who have seen kids with no prior history of any dysphoria, no prior body image issues, no prior discomfort with their sex, largely even without any material gender incongruence.

The rate of teens presenting with claims of gender dysphoria have risen dramatically in the last decade.

 

[Emily Lake]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

I agree and from what I've read, this is exactly how a trans child is able to get the treatment they require. The sad part is that so many states that are controlled by ignorant, far right crazies are preventing these children from getting the help and treatment they need, which sadly leads to an increase in depression, suicidal ideation and even suicide.

The problem is that in the states with incredibly lax approaches... we're getting children who are effectively being sterilized, and who are removing their breasts, and who are NOT having their pre-existing mental health concerns addressed, and whose rate of suicidal ideation and attempts continue to be at high levels.

The most recent research on this shows that there is no change in depression or suicidality for kids who get affirmative treatments. And in this case, no change means that the degree of depression and suicidality that led them to seek treatment in the first place is not alleviated.

Please don't use mental health conditions as a threat to enact policy. "Let kids do what they want or else they will kill themselves" is not a very good approach to policy.

I've not heard of anything like that, but of course, I'm mostly familiar with the treatment in Atlanta, since I live within 50 miles of the city. Could you please specify which states you are referring to, and add some documentation from a reliable source. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm alway skeptical of such claims without them being backed up with documentation from either a real source of news or a governmental source that explains what is permitted when it comes to helping trans children. Are you saying that these treatments are being done legally with the support of state government?

Please substantiate your claims. The treatment that is given in ATL is reasonable. Unfortunately, our Christian idiot governor and his pack are making it close to impossible for trans children to get help, and since I think that suicidal ideations and depression are serious issues, that put the life of the child at risk, I will continue to mention this problem. You only seem concerned about the possible side effects of treatment, while some of us are more concerned about the side effects when treatment is asked for but isn't available.

I can promise you as a retired nurse with 42 years of experience that every treatment, medication, procedure or surgery has risks. The risks have to be balanced along with the benefits before a treatment is offered. I'm certainly not expert, but I think I've read enough information about the difficulties that trans children face to know that we have failed them. I hope we can do better in the future, but it's going to be a long journey.

Btw, I'm not writing policy. I'm just discussing the political impact and possible risk factors involved with a medical treatment.

Pretty straightforward - go read any Planned Parenthood page on how they deal with it. They don't require any evaluation, and in most cases they will write you a prescription for cross-sex hormones or for puberty blockers on the same day as your first appointment.

In most states, the language technically says that it requires the consent of a parent if the person is a minor... but there's a lot of wink-wink-nudge-nudge involved.

But hey, who knows, maybe what happened to my niece and three of her close friends was totally a random fluke and an unfortunate oversight, and it really actually never ever happens.

 

[ZiprHead]

Pretty straightforward - go read any Planned Parenthood page on how they deal with it. They don't require any evaluation, and in most cases they will write you a prescription for cross-sex hormones or for puberty blockers on the same day as your first appointment.

Here's Planned Parenthoods pages on gender. I can find no references to evaluation and treatment at all. I suspect you've swallowed some BS by someone and decided to regurgitate it here.

Sex and Gender Identity

There’s more to gender than sex assigned at birth. What's biological sex or assigned sex? What does Female, Male, and Intersex mean?

www.plannedparenthood.org

 

[Jarhyn]

Here's the complication I see. A lot of the teens presenting with gender dysphoria have a history of other mental health conditions and issues. They frequently have histories of depression, anxiety disorders, and frequently autism

And so you tackle these issues in parallel, rather than letting yourself get distracted by delays to care. It's a shitty thing to tell someone that you can't address their gender issues because you're busy addressing their autism issues.

Do you think that 60 days is sufficient time to determine whether or not the pre-existing conditions are sufficiently addressed and managed to even consider dysphoria being a direct result of a neurological disconnect to one's sexed body? Do you think that's sufficient time for a good psychologist to actually address and mitigate those conditions

What I think is that this is an excuse to deny multiple parallel discussions of treatment, and a dumbass conservative talking point designed specifically to excuse trying nothing and being all out of ideas.

The fact is that due to the comorbidity of autism and gender atypicalities, the presence of autism in fact suggests that expressions of gender dysphoria are serious and more likely to be credible.

Demanding that gender dysphoria be the last concern to address, of a pile of concerns, is ignorant as hell, since the dysphoria is the only one of those concerns with any sense of time sensitivity.

I think regardless of whether someone has other shit going on, 60 days is enough to at the very least look at the concern being addressed in the 60 day treatment schedule specifically for the dysphoria.

 

[Toni]

I don't think that Emily is talking about clinicians spending months/years dealing with possible autism--a lifelong conditions or mental health issues such as depression and anxiety--extremely common! in lieu of treating gender dysmorphia. I think she's talking about the difficulty in sorting out these issues especially in teens, and especially when the teen has multiple issues.

She's also speaking about her family member, whom she loves and is very concerned about and who is not alone in being concerned that this family member is being rushed into irreversible breast removal when there are other underlying issues that are more likely to be causing the distress her family member is going through. At least one other family member, who is trans, btw, is in agreement with Emily.

Obviously I have no idea as to the details of the situation. I don't know Emily IRL or her family, either. But I do hear that she's writing from a place of love and concern, not of bigotry.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In most cases (?) I would presume this isn't coming out of the blue, however, as noted, a number of professional layers wrapped in this. You read so many people thinking it is as simple as a kid trying on mommy's shoes, which is ridiculous.

There are also a whole lot of reports of it actually coming out of the blue.

A "lot" of "reports"? Is this the same type of "a lot of reports" being "lots of people are saying"?

That's where a significant concern about ROGD as a social contagion comes from.

Again with the changing one's gender being a fad. Trying out being gay or bisexual can and is a thing. As the taboo has lifted for the most part, the ability to experiment sexually is quite a natural to expect sort of behavior for some. It isn't a fad, it is an availability, an option.

To change one's gender?! I can see this being possible among extremely impressionable people that suffer from a myriad of mental illnesses. But as a fad?

It's not something invented from whole cloth, it's based on the observation of a lot of parents and clinicians who have seen kids with no prior history of any dysphoria, no prior body image issues, no prior discomfort with their sex, largely even without any material gender incongruence.

This from the "a lot of reports"? You do realize just because it has an acronym, doesn't mean it is a clinical term or exists? Reminds me of this story, about parents suing a school district because they think a teacher made their kid trans. Oddly enough, the Fox News article is actually way more balanced than the Newscorp takes at the NY Post and Daily Mail.

The parents were supportive of supporting their child discovering their identity, but they did not believe their daughter expressed a desire to change her gender on her own. "[The parents] were incredibly concerned about the well-being of their 9-year-old daughter. They have and will always support [their child] but worried that [she] was being persuaded by Rosenquist to be transgender when she had not expressed any such inclination."

It is such an interesting way to see just how two faced parents can be. And in denial, etc...

The rate of teens presenting with claims of gender dysphoria have risen dramatically in the last decade.

*uncited claim filed in the trash can*

Children coming out is likely rising due to the less hostile (well... temporarily) environment as well as to parents who can't handle it has risen as well.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think that Emily is talking about clinicians spending months/years dealing with possible autism--a lifelong conditions or mental health issues such as depression and anxiety--extremely common! in lieu of treating gender dysmorphia. I think she's talking about the difficulty in sorting out these issues especially in teens, and especially when the teen has multiple issues.

She's also speaking about her family member, whom she loves and is very concerned about and who is not alone in being concerned that this family member is being rushed into irreversible breast removal when there are other underlying issues that are more likely to be causing the distress her family member is going through. At least one other family member, who is trans, btw, is in agreement with Emily.

Obviously I have no idea as to the details of the situation. I don't know Emily IRL or her family, either. But I do hear that she's writing from a place of love and concern, not of bigotry.

Oh, she is talking about exactly that, as pertains to BLOCKERS.

Her family member is in a tragic position created by views like Emily's wherein blockers are denied and the breasts grow.

If blockers had been offered as soon as there was any question of WHETHER her family member wanted breasts, if the eventuality had been considered before hand, her family member would be in the state "doesn't have them, but doesn't need surgery if later decides wants them".

I would absolutely slap the shit out of anyone who says "men" or "trans men" shouldn't have breasts to my child.

That's not OK. If someone is rushing a child towards an essentialism driven binary, that's child abuse.

Children should know their options, but they should be left to make their own decisions when they know, albeit with repeated and multitude opportunities to "do what most people do and just let their biology do it's thing".

All that is good and fine.

The issue is that concern trolling about "multiple issues" is something that I see pop up fairly often when this idea of "trust but verify" pops up. It is almost universally pushed as an excuse to withhold treatment "while they get the other things sorted out".

Well, by then it's too fucking late, and instead of the options of "take a pill to keep the boobs off me" it's "take a knife to get the boobs off me".

Once the breasts are there, the cows are out of the barn already, and in the pasture, metaphorically speaking. The ship has sailed, and now they have to tolerate it until they are 18+, preferably 21+.

I am not advocating surgery, have never advocated surgery, on a child. I don't advocate it even when it "could make their life easier". The ONLY time surgery on a child is EVER recommended is "imminent threat of major illness, further injury, or death". This means even "penile circumcision" is off the table by my principles, right up until they are 18+ years old, in all cases but that of severe phimosis or UTI that can be validated as not resulting from parental neglect.

I only advocate reversible breast prevention, not irreversible breast removal, for minors.

In that way I also agree with Emily, so she can't really use that as an excuse to speak against blockers.

 

[Toni]

Ffs, Jarhyn: At age 11 if I had been given the chance to just not have periods or grow breasts. I surely would have grabbed it. Even though I also wanted to have children. And then I grew up a little. A lot of 11 year olds are not that enthusiast about periods abd bras. Some of us could have used a little bit of reassurance and maybe a more positive relationship with our mothers. Puberty blockers? Not so much.

As far as I can tell from what Emily has stated about her family member, they only very recently announced that they wanted to be male and had shown no previous signs of ge fee dysmorphia.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ffs, Jarhyn: At age 11 if I had been given the chance to just not have periods or grow breasts. I surely would have grabbed it. Even though I also wanted to have children. And then I grew up a little. A lot of 11 year olds are not that enthusiast about periods abd bras. Some of us could have used a little bit of reassurance and maybe a more positive relationship with our mothers. Puberty blockers? Not so much.

As far as I can tell from what Emily has stated about her family member, they only very recently announced that they wanted to be male and had shown no previous signs of ge fee dysmorphia.

Yes, and then in 60 days, it would be apparent that you were one of the people who will promptly decide they do want to be like the rest of your peers, because you wanted to have children. You grew up a little. And then you would have desisted, when your fears of "growing up" dissipated.

Two things about Emily's apparently trans-masculine relative: one, Emily's recent awareness of it is not a strong argument to the recency of the feelings.

Take me: of my family, I have sworn the only two who know I am a eunuch to secrecy against my sister and parents. The one time it came up in my young-adult life was when I heard about a eunuch on testosterone, I looked into it, and shut up about it when I realized that nobody would give me testosterone blockers at the time, and the only other way to be a eunuch was "someone go get the banding machine..." The fact is I wanted to have a chance to find out if that was what I wanted without necessarily permanent consequences if I didn't.

If my parents or sister heard me say it, and I hadn't had the courage to tell the two who know iny family, it would seem sudden to them too, I'm sure. Even though that won't be dropped on my sister until after my parents are dead.

These are the kinds of feelings that all too often simmer causing grief and pain because you don't think your family will understand. And for fuck sakes, IF I WAS RELATED TO EMILY I WOULDN'T LET HER CATCH A FUCKING FART OF IT. You think her family member doesn't know how much rhetoric Emily and probably her whole family spits about trans folks?

But then there's that second thing: once their body is shaped some way, they have to suck it up and live with it until they are at least 18, preferably 21+, and all that time listen to folks like me who say "men can have breasts, and there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of men wish they could have breasts and it doesn't make them not-men."

If their response to that is "____ says..." Then you slap the shit out of ____. If their response is "but I'm not one of those men", then the counter-response goes back to "the save your money up for when you turn 18, or if you still want it and can't afford it by your 21st I'll pay for it."

Saving up 3-5000 dollars over the course of 3 years and actually holding onto it is a pretty serious way of saying "I actually really do want this". Especially as teen.

The fact is that all the arguments I give Emily as to why there is no true "man" or "woman", why there is no true "male" beyond "sperm" and why there is no "female" beyond egg, are all the same arguments that must be leveled against trans people when they say they must do some thing to their body to be a "man", or to be a "woman".

Each of their concerns, be they the growth of breasts, or the influence of their hormones on their thought process, or any other thing, should be first examined alone, before understanding the interaction between those factors of what is intolerable to them specifically about what is going on with their bodies and minds. The cessation of hormones without the presentation of non-endogenous hormones is exactly what clarifies whether the thing they hate is real or imagined.

The answer "I just want to be a man" doesn't tell anyone what they want to be, why, or how. It doesn't paint the picture of that perfect self and without a clear destination, there is no clear path. "Man" is a vague direction. So is "woman".

 

[southernhybrid]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

I agree and from what I've read, this is exactly how a trans child is able to get the treatment they require. The sad part is that so many states that are controlled by ignorant, far right crazies are preventing these children from getting the help and treatment they need, which sadly leads to an increase in depression, suicidal ideation and even suicide.

The problem is that in the states with incredibly lax approaches... we're getting children who are effectively being sterilized, and who are removing their breasts, and who are NOT having their pre-existing mental health concerns addressed, and whose rate of suicidal ideation and attempts continue to be at high levels.

The most recent research on this shows that there is no change in depression or suicidality for kids who get affirmative treatments. And in this case, no change means that the degree of depression and suicidality that led them to seek treatment in the first place is not alleviated.

Please don't use mental health conditions as a threat to enact policy. "Let kids do what they want or else they will kill themselves" is not a very good approach to policy.

I've not heard of anything like that, but of course, I'm mostly familiar with the treatment in Atlanta, since I live within 50 miles of the city. Could you please specify which states you are referring to, and add some documentation from a reliable source. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm alway skeptical of such claims without them being backed up with documentation from either a real source of news or a governmental source that explains what is permitted when it comes to helping trans children. Are you saying that these treatments are being done legally with the support of state government?

Please substantiate your claims. The treatment that is given in ATL is reasonable. Unfortunately, our Christian idiot governor and his pack are making it close to impossible for trans children to get help, and since I think that suicidal ideations and depression are serious issues, that put the life of the child at risk, I will continue to mention this problem. You only seem concerned about the possible side effects of treatment, while some of us are more concerned about the side effects when treatment is asked for but isn't available.

I can promise you as a retired nurse with 42 years of experience that every treatment, medication, procedure or surgery has risks. The risks have to be balanced along with the benefits before a treatment is offered. I'm certainly not expert, but I think I've read enough information about the difficulties that trans children face to know that we have failed them. I hope we can do better in the future, but it's going to be a long journey.

Btw, I'm not writing policy. I'm just discussing the political impact and possible risk factors involved with a medical treatment.

Pretty straightforward - go read any Planned Parenthood page on how they deal with it. They don't require any evaluation, and in most cases they will write you a prescription for cross-sex hormones or for puberty blockers on the same day as your first appointment.

In most states, the language technically says that it requires the consent of a parent if the person is a minor... but there's a lot of wink-wink-nudge-nudge involved.

But hey, who knows, maybe what happened to my niece and three of her close friends was totally a random fluke and an unfortunate oversight, and it really actually never ever happens.

I did a lot of reading regarding the age and outcomes of trans children who have breast removal surgery prior to age 18. It's rather rare, but in the vast majority of cases, based on what I've read, the children who opt for this type of surgery are very satisfied. There are a few who have some regrets, but I think of this like I think of abortion. It's a decision that should be made between the doctor and the patient. Of course, in the case of minors, the parents should be involved as well. Of course this isn't an easy, but it does seem in the case of children who identify as trans at a very early age, we should respect their right to have help with feeling more comfortable in the bodies that match their gender. I've read enough about how gender is determined by the brain, not the body parts. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to be. trans in the current atmosphere, where so many conservatives refuse to even consider the science that supports trans identity.

You and I can have our opinions, but since I assume that like me, you are a cis woman, we really can't fully understand what it's like to be a trans child and have the government and large parts of society prevent you from obtaining help in transitioning so body parts match gender id.

I'm not saying that I totally agree with everything said by Jaryhn but I think someone like Jaryhn knows better than we do, what it's like to have a brain that identifies as a gender that doesn't match their body parts. I'm not saying that breast removal in an 12 year old is a great idea, as a child that age is not mature enough to make such a drastic decision and from what I've read, surgery is almost always delayed until age 17 or 18, or older in some states, but what do you and I know about what these children go through? It must be very difficult not being accepted by their peers and in many cases by their own parents?

I'm not an expert when it comes to things like hormone blockers but the more I read, the more I'm convinced that these do more good than harm, in the vast majority of cases. As I said earlier, all medical procedures have risks. There are a tiny percentage of women who choose to have an abortion, who sometimes later regret it. That doesn't mean that abortion should be banned, anymore than helping trans children should be banned, as it is in many conservative states. Let physicians who specialize in this area determine, along with the parents, what is best for their patients. Government needs to stay out of medical care decisions, with very few exceptions, imo.

Btw, I have a good friend, who's 15 year old daughter has recently come out as nonbinary or trans. My friend is very progressive and yet she was shocked since this is the first time her daughter ever mentioned this. Since my friend doesn't even have insurance, there isn't much that can be done for her daughter, other than gaining the support of her mother, so she is simply accepting what her daughter is saying and waiting to see if she continues to Identify this way. I tend to think when a teen comes out as trans without ever mentioning this before, it might just be a phase they are going through, or perhaps they are unhappy with gender stereotypes or it could also be they are trans or nonbinary and never felt comfortable bringing this up to a parent before. It's certainly complicated and I think we can both agree on that.

I will read what Planned Parenthood says about this matter, when I have the time.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm not saying that I totally agree with everything said by Jaryhn but I think someone like Jaryhn knows better than we do, what it's like to have a brain that identifies as a gender that doesn't match their body parts. I'm not saying that breast removal in an 12 year old is a great idea, as a child that age is not mature enough to make such a drastic decision and from what I've read, surgery is almost always delayed until age 17 or 18, or older in some states, but what do you and I know about what these children go through? It must be very difficult not being accepted by their peers and in many cases by their own parents?

I have said loudly and repeatedly that I do not condone such surgeries. Really, the only time I would even budge is if someone is holding their own life hostage to get it. At that point, it's either let them have this or lose them, and if someone feels that strongly about it, they aren't going to be unhappy for a long time, and they only have themselves to blame if they do.

Very few do, as you note.

As I said in my previous post

The fact is that all the arguments I give Emily as to why there is no true "man" or "woman", why there is no true "male" beyond "sperm" and why there is no "female" beyond egg, are all the same arguments that must be leveled against trans people when they say they must do some thing to their body to be a "man", or to be a "woman".

I tend to think when a teen comes out as trans without ever mentioning this before, it might just be a phase they are going through, or perhaps they are unhappy with gender stereotypes or it could also be they are trans or nonbinary and never felt comfortable bringing this up to a parent before.

Personally, I think the correct course is to "trust but verify". AKA "give the benefit of doubt".

As I said, the reason I said nothing is that I wouldn't have been listened to. I knew that every time. I knew when I was in my early teens that I was expected to be a certain way and I let that control me. I was practically shamed into masking as a "man" or a "boy" at the time I guess.

Later on, when I looked into it during "the dark years", I realized the world wasn't ready for someone that just wanted to be a eunuch, and wanted to do it through medically valid channels... And given the reason I call them "the dark years", I had other reasons to mournfully set the idea aside.

It's better to be the kind of parent that listens to their child, just like you want the kind of doctor that listened to you as a patient or the kind of husband that listens to you as a partner.

If for someone wanting to change one's hormones is merely a phase, the seriousness of it all, the procedure and the hassle, the psych appointments and the blood samples will dissuade all but the most adamant folks. It's not like wanting to play the guitar or rollerblade or play badminton, where just picking it up is a fairly tiny investment.

Just going through those overtures will be enough to scare away "low investment fad chasers".

 

[Toni]

In most cases (?) I would presume this isn't coming out of the blue, however, as noted, a number of professional layers wrapped in this. You read so many people thinking it is as simple as a kid trying on mommy's shoes, which is ridiculous.

There are also a whole lot of reports of it actually coming out of the blue.

A "lot" of "reports"? Is this the same type of "a lot of reports" being "lots of people are saying"?

That's where a significant concern about ROGD as a social contagion comes from.

Again with the changing one's gender being a fad. Trying out being gay or bisexual can and is a thing. As the taboo has lifted for the most part, the ability to experiment sexually is quite a natural to expect sort of behavior for some. It isn't a fad, it is an availability, an option.

To change one's gender?! I can see this being possible among extremely impressionable people that suffer from a myriad of mental illnesses. But as a fad?

It's not something invented from whole cloth, it's based on the observation of a lot of parents and clinicians who have seen kids with no prior history of any dysphoria, no prior body image issues, no prior discomfort with their sex, largely even without any material gender incongruence.

This from the "a lot of reports"? You do realize just because it has an acronym, doesn't mean it is a clinical term or exists? Reminds me of this story, about parents suing a school district because they think a teacher made their kid trans. Oddly enough, the Fox News article is actually way more balanced than the Newscorp takes at the NY Post and Daily Mail.

The parents were supportive of supporting their child discovering their identity, but they did not believe their daughter expressed a desire to change her gender on her own. "[The parents] were incredibly concerned about the well-being of their 9-year-old daughter. They have and will always support [their child] but worried that [she] was being persuaded by Rosenquist to be transgender when she had not expressed any such inclination."

It is such an interesting way to see just how two faced parents can be. And in denial, etc...

The rate of teens presenting with claims of gender dysphoria have risen dramatically in the last decade.

*uncited claim filed in the trash can*

Children coming out is likely rising due to the less hostile (well... temporarily) environment as well as to parents who can't handle it has risen as well.

I think you are correct that more children are expressing trans identity because it’s more openly discuses and potentially more accepted.

But I also believe Emily when she says her niece received little counseling and that a trans family member thought that this was potentially too rushed and the wrong path for them. I also wonder if, with different parents and in a different community a child like I was could be pushed into thinking that they were maybe trans because they liked things that society says are appropriate for the other gender. I was told by other kids. - couple of teachers a d even siblings that what I liked/wanted/ who I was was not female appropriate. As it was I pushed back and realized that it was assigning gender to activities abd clothing and interests and talents and colors that was ducked up. But i
am particularly stubborn and sure of who I am.

 

[Jarhyn]

In most cases (?) I would presume this isn't coming out of the blue, however, as noted, a number of professional layers wrapped in this. You read so many people thinking it is as simple as a kid trying on mommy's shoes, which is ridiculous.

There are also a whole lot of reports of it actually coming out of the blue.

A "lot" of "reports"? Is this the same type of "a lot of reports" being "lots of people are saying"?

That's where a significant concern about ROGD as a social contagion comes from.

Again with the changing one's gender being a fad. Trying out being gay or bisexual can and is a thing. As the taboo has lifted for the most part, the ability to experiment sexually is quite a natural to expect sort of behavior for some. It isn't a fad, it is an availability, an option.

To change one's gender?! I can see this being possible among extremely impressionable people that suffer from a myriad of mental illnesses. But as a fad?

It's not something invented from whole cloth, it's based on the observation of a lot of parents and clinicians who have seen kids with no prior history of any dysphoria, no prior body image issues, no prior discomfort with their sex, largely even without any material gender incongruence.

This from the "a lot of reports"? You do realize just because it has an acronym, doesn't mean it is a clinical term or exists? Reminds me of this story, about parents suing a school district because they think a teacher made their kid trans. Oddly enough, the Fox News article is actually way more balanced than the Newscorp takes at the NY Post and Daily Mail.

The parents were supportive of supporting their child discovering their identity, but they did not believe their daughter expressed a desire to change her gender on her own. "[The parents] were incredibly concerned about the well-being of their 9-year-old daughter. They have and will always support [their child] but worried that [she] was being persuaded by Rosenquist to be transgender when she had not expressed any such inclination."

It is such an interesting way to see just how two faced parents can be. And in denial, etc...

The rate of teens presenting with claims of gender dysphoria have risen dramatically in the last decade.

*uncited claim filed in the trash can*

Children coming out is likely rising due to the less hostile (well... temporarily) environment as well as to parents who can't handle it has risen as well.

I think you are correct that more children are expressing trans identity because it’s more openly discuses and potentially more accepted.

But I also believe Emily when she says her niece received little counseling and that a trans family member thought that this was potentially too rushed and the wrong path for them. I also wonder if, with different parents and in a different community a child like I was could be pushed into thinking that they were maybe trans because they liked things that society says are appropriate for the other gender. I was told by other kids. - couple of teachers a d even siblings that what I liked/wanted/ who I was was not female appropriate. As it was I pushed back and realized that it was assigning gender to activities abd clothing and interests and talents and colors that was ducked up. But i
am particularly stubborn and sure of who I am.

I mean, facially, it is clearly the wrong path to let anyone take. Once the breasts are there, the expectation is that the owner of them live with them until they are old enough to be considered an adult capable of adult decisions.

If I was somehow just as I am today sitting in front of Toni the Young and Unhappily Breasted, I would say the same damn thing. If it was "Toni the Young and Not Yet Breasted" I would repeatedly tell you that it's not important to play to "girl" or "boy". It's important that you are "exactly yourself".

As to your anatomy issues, I would be clear that even as a not-woman, I would absolutely choose to have breasts at least until after I had as many children as I was going to, and that no matter how someone grows up, there is pain and hardship. That even a eunuch would grow up with pain and hardship... Just a different variety of it. It's there no matter which you choose, especially during puberty. Were you to be a boy, instead of your body hitting you, hurting you, and promising more physical suffering, it's going to be your peers doing that. Were you to choose to be neither... Well, then the concerns are different still. And as a eunuch, forever, from an early age? The thing is, people who cease hormones before puberty resolves those problems, urinary incontinence can end up being a lifelong issue.

It's either your genitals punch you, your friends punch you, or you might end up pissing your pants occasionally and needing to wear diapers, at which point it's your wallet punching you.

I expect that after a few sessions where that is clarified, and you are suitably warned off of it by someone who is clearly not warning you off because they think nobody should but rather because you were doing it for the wrong reasons, that you would desist, and back to your regularly scheduled puberty.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think you are correct that more children are expressing trans identity because it’s more openly discuses and potentially more accepted.

But I also believe Emily when she says her niece received little counseling and that a trans family member thought that this was potentially too rushed and the wrong path for them. I also wonder if, with different parents and in a different community a child like I was could be pushed into thinking that they were maybe trans because they liked things that society says are appropriate for the other gender. I was told by other kids. - couple of teachers a d even siblings that what I liked/wanted/ who I was was not female appropriate. As it was I pushed back and realized that it was assigning gender to activities abd clothing and interests and talents and colors that was ducked up. But i
am particularly stubborn and sure of who I am.

If you put enough elephants in front of enough keyboards with larger than average size keys, given enough time, you are going to wonder what you were thinking.

That aside, I am 100% certain there are bad doctors, bad psychologists, bad therapists (not morally, but just not really good) out there. I'm willing to believe that there are children getting bad counseling. I am 100% certain that there are even doctors, psychologists, therapists out there that have an agenda... who think they are doing good but aren't. They are out there. And there are parents that need to manage their children's health care all the more diligently. And further, there are likely people that have mental health issues that make them prone to suggestion, without even suggesting things to them, that could sway in that direction.

However, Emily Lake isn't suggesting that this is possible, she is saying that there is peer and social pressure to be trans, which is utterly ridiculous. She is raising the 'serious' issue of ROGD... an acronym that has no clinical backing behind it. I can't speak for her family members. I certainly have less than no information about them. And it is anecdotal, at best. It is not a representative picture of how transgender treatment is handled in the US. It is just a dot. Not unimportant, but not representative. And I personally do not like people shoving their asses into the private care of children, without any reasonable amount of information to move forward with. I hate doctors, parents, family, therapists being targeted and demonized.

Emily isn't herself demonizing people... actively. But this ROGD bullshit is definitely doing so, and she's tugging that rope. Hiding it behind a false cloak of clinicality doesn't make its ugliness any less apparent.

 

[Toni]

Ffs, Jarhyn: At age 11 if I had been given the chance to just not have periods or grow breasts. I surely would have grabbed it. Even though I also wanted to have children. And then I grew up a little. A lot of 11 year olds are not that enthusiast about periods abd bras. Some of us could have used a little bit of reassurance and maybe a more positive relationship with our mothers. Puberty blockers? Not so much.

As far as I can tell from what Emily has stated about her family member, they only very recently announced that they wanted to be male and had shown no previous signs of ge fee dysmorphia.

Yes, and then in 60 days, it would be apparent that you were one of the people who will promptly decide they do want to be like the rest of your peers, because you wanted to have children. You grew up a little. And then you would have desisted, when your fears of "growing up" dissipated.

Two things about Emily's apparently trans-masculine relative: one, Emily's recent awareness of it is not a strong argument to the recency of the feelings.

Take me: of my family, I have sworn the only two who know I am a eunuch to secrecy against my sister and parents. The one time it came up in my young-adult life was when I heard about a eunuch on testosterone, I looked into it, and shut up about it when I realized that nobody would give me testosterone blockers at the time, and the only other way to be a eunuch was "someone go get the banding machine..." The fact is I wanted to have a chance to find out if that was what I wanted without necessarily permanent consequences if I didn't.

If my parents or sister heard me say it, and I hadn't had the courage to tell the two who know iny family, it would seem sudden to them too, I'm sure. Even though that won't be dropped on my sister until after my parents are dead.

These are the kinds of feelings that all too often simmer causing grief and pain because you don't think your family will understand. And for fuck sakes, IF I WAS RELATED TO EMILY I WOULDN'T LET HER CATCH A FUCKING FART OF IT. You think her family member doesn't know how much rhetoric Emily and probably her whole family spits about trans folks?

But then there's that second thing: once their body is shaped some way, they have to suck it up and live with it until they are at least 18, preferably 21+, and all that time listen to folks like me who say "men can have breasts, and there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of men wish they could have breasts and it doesn't make them not-men."

If their response to that is "____ says..." Then you slap the shit out of ____. If their response is "but I'm not one of those men", then the counter-response goes back to "the save your money up for when you turn 18, or if you still want it and can't afford it by your 21st I'll pay for it."

Saving up 3-5000 dollars over the course of 3 years and actually holding onto it is a pretty serious way of saying "I actually really do want this". Especially as teen.

The fact is that all the arguments I give Emily as to why there is no true "man" or "woman", why there is no true "male" beyond "sperm" and why there is no "female" beyond egg, are all the same arguments that must be leveled against trans people when they say they must do some thing to their body to be a "man", or to be a "woman".

Each of their concerns, be they the growth of breasts, or the influence of their hormones on their thought process, or any other thing, should be first examined alone, before understanding the interaction between those factors of what is intolerable to them specifically about what is going on with their bodies and minds. The cessation of hormones without the presentation of non-endogenous hormones is exactly what clarifies whether the thing they hate is real or imagined.

The answer "I just want to be a man" doesn't tell anyone what they want to be, why, or how. It doesn't paint the picture of that perfect self and without a clear destination, there is no clear path. "Man" is a vague direction. So is "woman".

Having gone through the onslaught of adolescence, it would not have been nearly so simple as that. Hormones affect how you feel. And trust me when I say that I was raised by parents who did not believe in quitting, especially when, to their way of thinking, it would involve ‘wasting a lot of time and mine for what? So you could change your mind????’

I am NOT against puberty blockers after AND in conjunction with careful screening and ongoing counseling with psychiatrists and psychologists with expertise in gender issues and adolescent health.