Drag Shows

[Toni]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

I agree and from what I've read, this is exactly how a trans child is able to get the treatment they require. The sad part is that so many states that are controlled by ignorant, far right crazies are preventing these children from getting the help and treatment they need, which sadly leads to an increase in depression, suicidal ideation and even suicide.

The problem is that in the states with incredibly lax approaches... we're getting children who are effectively being sterilized, and who are removing their breasts, and who are NOT having their pre-existing mental health concerns addressed, and whose rate of suicidal ideation and attempts continue to be at high levels.

The most recent research on this shows that there is no change in depression or suicidality for kids who get affirmative treatments. And in this case, no change means that the degree of depression and suicidality that led them to seek treatment in the first place is not alleviated.

Please don't use mental health conditions as a threat to enact policy. "Let kids do what they want or else they will kill themselves" is not a very good approach to policy.

I've not heard of anything like that, but of course, I'm mostly familiar with the treatment in Atlanta, since I live within 50 miles of the city. Could you please specify which states you are referring to, and add some documentation from a reliable source. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm alway skeptical of such claims without them being backed up with documentation from either a real source of news or a governmental source that explains what is permitted when it comes to helping trans children. Are you saying that these treatments are being done legally with the support of state government?

Please substantiate your claims. The treatment that is given in ATL is reasonable. Unfortunately, our Christian idiot governor and his pack are making it close to impossible for trans children to get help, and since I think that suicidal ideations and depression are serious issues, that put the life of the child at risk, I will continue to mention this problem. You only seem concerned about the possible side effects of treatment, while some of us are more concerned about the side effects when treatment is asked for but isn't available.

I can promise you as a retired nurse with 42 years of experience that every treatment, medication, procedure or surgery has risks. The risks have to be balanced along with the benefits before a treatment is offered. I'm certainly not expert, but I think I've read enough information about the difficulties that trans children face to know that we have failed them. I hope we can do better in the future, but it's going to be a long journey.

Btw, I'm not writing policy. I'm just discussing the political impact and possible risk factors involved with a medical treatment.

Pretty straightforward - go read any Planned Parenthood page on how they deal with it. They don't require any evaluation, and in most cases they will write you a prescription for cross-sex hormones or for puberty blockers on the same day as your first appointment.

In most states, the language technically says that it requires the consent of a parent if the person is a minor... but there's a lot of wink-wink-nudge-nudge involved.

But hey, who knows, maybe what happened to my niece and three of her close friends was totally a random fluke and an unfortunate oversight, and it really actually never ever happens.

I did a lot of reading regarding the age and outcomes of trans children who have breast removal surgery prior to age 18. It's rather rare, but in the vast majority of cases, based on what I've read, the children who opt for this type of surgery are very satisfied. There are a few who have some regrets, but I think of this like I think of abortion. It's a decision that should be made between the doctor and the patient. Of course, in the case of minors, the parents should be involved as well. Of course this isn't an easy, but it does seem in the case of children who identify as trans at a very early age, we should respect their right to have help with feeling more comfortable in the bodies that match their gender. I've read enough about how gender is determined by the brain, not the body parts. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to be. trans in the current atmosphere, where so many conservatives refuse to even consider the science that supports trans identity.

You and I can have our opinions, but since I assume that like me, you are a cis woman, we really can't fully understand what it's like to be a trans child and have the government and large parts of society prevent you from obtaining help in transitioning so body parts match gender id.

I'm not saying that I totally agree with everything said by Jaryhn but I think someone like Jaryhn knows better than we do, what it's like to have a brain that identifies as a gender that doesn't match their body parts. I'm not saying that breast removal in an 12 year old is a great idea, as a child that age is not mature enough to make such a drastic decision and from what I've read, surgery is almost always delayed until age 17 or 18, or older in some states, but what do you and I know about what these children go through? It must be very difficult not being accepted by their peers and in many cases by their own parents?

I'm not an expert when it comes to things like hormone blockers but the more I read, the more I'm convinced that these do more good than harm, in the vast majority of cases. As I said earlier, all medical procedures have risks. There are a tiny percentage of women who choose to have an abortion, who sometimes later regret it. That doesn't mean that abortion should be banned, anymore than helping trans children should be banned, as it is in many conservative states. Let physicians who specialize in this area determine, along with the parents, what is best for their patients. Government needs to stay out of medical care decisions, with very few exceptions, imo.

Btw, I have a good friend, who's 15 year old daughter has recently come out as nonbinary or trans. My friend is very progressive and yet she was shocked since this is the first time her daughter ever mentioned this. Since my friend doesn't even have insurance, there isn't much that can be done for her daughter, other than gaining the support of her mother, so she is simply accepting what her daughter is saying and waiting to see if she continues to Identify this way. I tend to think when a teen comes out as trans without ever mentioning this before, it might just be a phase they are going through, or perhaps they are unhappy with gender stereotypes or it could also be they are trans or nonbinary and never felt comfortable bringing this up to a parent before. It's certainly complicated and I think we can both agree on that.

I will read what Planned Parenthood says about this matter, when I have the time.

I M extremely aware of the limitations of my ability to truly understand what it is to be a trans child. Mostly I have been writing as a counterpoint to the perception that people who have concerns about non-reversible surgeries fit children and who are not in agreement that puberty blockers are harmless are bigots.

I understand the concerns from both perspectives. Regarding those who have a different perspective as bigots isn’t helpful. Not saying you are doing that .

 

[Toni]

I think you are correct that more children are expressing trans identity because it’s more openly discuses and potentially more accepted.

But I also believe Emily when she says her niece received little counseling and that a trans family member thought that this was potentially too rushed and the wrong path for them. I also wonder if, with different parents and in a different community a child like I was could be pushed into thinking that they were maybe trans because they liked things that society says are appropriate for the other gender. I was told by other kids. - couple of teachers a d even siblings that what I liked/wanted/ who I was was not female appropriate. As it was I pushed back and realized that it was assigning gender to activities abd clothing and interests and talents and colors that was ducked up. But i
am particularly stubborn and sure of who I am.

If you put enough elephants in front of enough keyboards with larger than average size keys, given enough time, you are going to wonder what you were thinking.

That aside, I am 100% certain there are bad doctors, bad psychologists, bad therapists (not morally, but just not really good) out there. I'm willing to believe that there are children getting bad counseling. I am 100% certain that there are even doctors, psychologists, therapists out there that have an agenda... who think they are doing good but aren't. They are out there. And there are parents that need to manage their children's health care all the more diligently. And further, there are likely people that have mental health issues that make them prone to suggestion, without even suggesting things to them, that could sway in that direction.

However, Emily Lake isn't suggesting that this is possible, she is saying that there is peer and social pressure to be trans, which is utterly ridiculous. She is raising the 'serious' issue of ROGD... an acronym that has no clinical backing behind it. I can't speak for her family members. I certainly have less than no information about them. And it is anecdotal, at best. It is not a representative picture of how transgender treatment is handled in the US. It is just a dot. Not unimportant, but not representative. And I personally do not like people shoving their asses into the private care of children, without any reasonable amount of information to move forward with. I hate doctors, parents, family, therapists being targeted and demonized.

Emily isn't herself demonizing people... actively. But this ROGD bullshit is definitely doing so, and she's tugging that rope. Hiding it behind a false cloak of clinicality doesn't make its ugliness any less apparent.

I think that it is possible that there is peer pressure to be trans or to say that you think you might be. After all there is peer pressure to join a gang, to drink abd so drugs, to have sex with people who don’t even like you or care about you, to steal, to cut classes,, to cut your hair, get tattoos and piercings, to dye your hair, and sometimes to bully someone who seems vulnerable.

Which is why it is important to help kids to be comfortable with themselves, with their thoughts, feelings, bodies, likes, dislikes even as these change even several times a day. And to instill the virtue of honesty and empathy and self acceptance and acceptance of others. And boundaries!

 

[Jarhyn]

Ffs, Jarhyn: At age 11 if I had been given the chance to just not have periods or grow breasts. I surely would have grabbed it. Even though I also wanted to have children. And then I grew up a little. A lot of 11 year olds are not that enthusiast about periods abd bras. Some of us could have used a little bit of reassurance and maybe a more positive relationship with our mothers. Puberty blockers? Not so much.

As far as I can tell from what Emily has stated about her family member, they only very recently announced that they wanted to be male and had shown no previous signs of ge fee dysmorphia.

Yes, and then in 60 days, it would be apparent that you were one of the people who will promptly decide they do want to be like the rest of your peers, because you wanted to have children. You grew up a little. And then you would have desisted, when your fears of "growing up" dissipated.

Two things about Emily's apparently trans-masculine relative: one, Emily's recent awareness of it is not a strong argument to the recency of the feelings.

Take me: of my family, I have sworn the only two who know I am a eunuch to secrecy against my sister and parents. The one time it came up in my young-adult life was when I heard about a eunuch on testosterone, I looked into it, and shut up about it when I realized that nobody would give me testosterone blockers at the time, and the only other way to be a eunuch was "someone go get the banding machine..." The fact is I wanted to have a chance to find out if that was what I wanted without necessarily permanent consequences if I didn't.

If my parents or sister heard me say it, and I hadn't had the courage to tell the two who know iny family, it would seem sudden to them too, I'm sure. Even though that won't be dropped on my sister until after my parents are dead.

These are the kinds of feelings that all too often simmer causing grief and pain because you don't think your family will understand. And for fuck sakes, IF I WAS RELATED TO EMILY I WOULDN'T LET HER CATCH A FUCKING FART OF IT. You think her family member doesn't know how much rhetoric Emily and probably her whole family spits about trans folks?

But then there's that second thing: once their body is shaped some way, they have to suck it up and live with it until they are at least 18, preferably 21+, and all that time listen to folks like me who say "men can have breasts, and there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of men wish they could have breasts and it doesn't make them not-men."

If their response to that is "____ says..." Then you slap the shit out of ____. If their response is "but I'm not one of those men", then the counter-response goes back to "the save your money up for when you turn 18, or if you still want it and can't afford it by your 21st I'll pay for it."

Saving up 3-5000 dollars over the course of 3 years and actually holding onto it is a pretty serious way of saying "I actually really do want this". Especially as teen.

The fact is that all the arguments I give Emily as to why there is no true "man" or "woman", why there is no true "male" beyond "sperm" and why there is no "female" beyond egg, are all the same arguments that must be leveled against trans people when they say they must do some thing to their body to be a "man", or to be a "woman".

Each of their concerns, be they the growth of breasts, or the influence of their hormones on their thought process, or any other thing, should be first examined alone, before understanding the interaction between those factors of what is intolerable to them specifically about what is going on with their bodies and minds. The cessation of hormones without the presentation of non-endogenous hormones is exactly what clarifies whether the thing they hate is real or imagined.

The answer "I just want to be a man" doesn't tell anyone what they want to be, why, or how. It doesn't paint the picture of that perfect self and without a clear destination, there is no clear path. "Man" is a vague direction. So is "woman".

Having gone through the onslaught of adolescence, it would not have been nearly so simple as that. Hormones affect how you feel. And trust me when I say that I was raised by parents who did not believe in quitting, especially when, to their way of thinking, it would involve ‘wasting a lot of time and mine for what? So you could change your mind????’

I am NOT against puberty blockers after AND in conjunction with careful screening and ongoing counseling with psychiatrists and psychologists with expertise in gender issues and adolescent health.

Well, after a week of blockers when that insanity of the hormones clears up and you can think again, and even identify the difference between "hormones" and "not hormones" and you start getting counseling on how to handle them and identify how they color your thoughts...

And the whole fucking goal of it is to get as many as possible to say "naw..." And parents should know going into it.

I would personally say "shut up and take my money" if it meant my kid has a chance to grow up feeling that they had full agency over the result, especially if the result is "let's be WYSIWYG".

 

[Toni]

I am much less sanguine that medical science, psychiatry or society are knowledgeable or wise enough to start mucking around with people’s hormones carte blanche. It’s too much to foist on a kid at that age—which is different than responfmding to needs and concerns expressed by the kid.

If you look at a classroom of 11 year olds, some will look 14 and some will look…8. The disparity increases and peaks around 13-14 years old. Their reasoning and maturity abd capacity to make serious decisions varies as well.

I absolutely DO think it makes sense and is good and wise and appropriate and ethical to help children who express distress—by appropriate counseling with professionals with expertise. There is no one size fits all. Not all girls like pink. Not all boys play ball.

 

[Jarhyn]

I am much less sanguine that medical science, psychiatry or society are knowledgeable or wise enough to start mucking around with people’s hormones carte blanche. It’s too much to foist on a kid at that age—which is different than responfmding to needs and concerns expressed by the kid.

If you look at a classroom of 11 year olds, some will look 14 and some will look…8. The disparity increases and peaks around 13-14 years old. Their reasoning and maturity abd capacity to make serious decisions varies as well.

I absolutely DO think it makes sense and is good and wise and appropriate and ethical to help children who express distress—by appropriate counseling with professionals with expertise. There is no one size fits all. Not all girls like pink. Not all boys play ball.

Society has been mucking around with this exact hormonal shift that I describe (from endogenous hormones to *none*) for well over 300,000 years, since before society existed, since we were apes that knew "no balls" made changes happen.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think that Emily is talking about clinicians spending months/years dealing with possible autism--a lifelong conditions or mental health issues such as depression and anxiety--extremely common! in lieu of treating gender dysmorphia. I think she's talking about the difficulty in sorting out these issues especially in teens, and especially when the teen has multiple issues.

She's also speaking about her family member, whom she loves and is very concerned about and who is not alone in being concerned that this family member is being rushed into irreversible breast removal when there are other underlying issues that are more likely to be causing the distress her family member is going through. At least one other family member, who is trans, btw, is in agreement with Emily.

Obviously I have no idea as to the details of the situation. I don't know Emily IRL or her family, either. But I do hear that she's writing from a place of love and concern, not of bigotry.

Missouri AG's regulation bans trans treatment for adults with depression

The rule prohibits patients from seeking care unless they've met various requirements, including having mental health issues "treated and resolved."

www.businessinsider.com

You can claim what you want, but this is where that rhetoric is coming from.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Having gone through the onslaught of adolescence, it would not have been nearly so simple as that. Hormones affect how you feel. And trust me when I say that I was raised by parents who did not believe in quitting, especially when, to their way of thinking, it would involve ‘wasting a lot of time and mine for what? So you could change your mind????’

I am NOT against puberty blockers after AND in conjunction with careful screening and ongoing counseling with psychiatrists and psychologists with expertise in gender issues and adolescent health.

And we don't know that didn't happen, only that Emily wasn't aware of it happening.

 

[Toni]

Having gone through the onslaught of adolescence, it would not have been nearly so simple as that. Hormones affect how you feel. And trust me when I say that I was raised by parents who did not believe in quitting, especially when, to their way of thinking, it would involve ‘wasting a lot of time and mine for what? So you could change your mind????’

I am NOT against puberty blockers after AND in conjunction with careful screening and ongoing counseling with psychiatrists and psychologists with expertise in gender issues and adolescent health.

And we don't know that didn't happen, only that Emily wasn't aware of it happening.

I try very hard to take people at their word. Emily has described two people in her family, one who is trans and another teen who has only very recently expressed any gender dysmorphia, and has, fir some time, experienced some mental illness and some family trauma. If Emily is being truthful and honest, her other trans relative has also expressed grace concern with the seeming rapidity of these new revelations about her relative who is about to undergo irreversible surgery only months after expressing that they believe they are make.

It is true that Emily may not have the full history—her relative may not have expressed these self perceptions but May have been living with this for much longer. Their parents may have known or suspected and may have been trying to help them with the best resources available for some time. This infuriation may have been kept between only this young person and a parent and not shared with other family—to preserve the privacy of the young person involved. We don’t know.

I do believe that Emily cares very deeply about all her family members and is genuinely concerned. Her remarks are not embedded in bigotry but in what she is observing. Whether her observations are fully informed and accurate, we cannot know. But there does not seem to be the malice and bigotry that some are so eager to attribute to her.

I don’t intend to comment further in this thread, which seems to have devolved into personal attacks and a lot of wild speculation.

I don’t always agree with Emily Lake but I certainly do not see any need to attempt to dissect her relationship with her family members, the medical and psychological wisdom of what she describes as happening or to evaluate any person’s medical treatment or goals in this thread.

This is really enough.

 

[Jarhyn]

If Emily is being truthful and honest, her other trans relative has also expressed grace concern with the seeming rapidity of these new revelations about her relative who is about to undergo irreversible surgery only months after expressing that they believe they are make

And if you actually read the text, even I agree that the relative should not be having surgeries until they are 18+.

Everyone agrees on that.

I do believe that Emily cares very deeply about all her family members and is genuinely concerned

I do not believe this part. I do not believe it because as I posted on Missouri, it is clear that exactly Emily's argument about dealing with "other problems first" is being used now to prevent adults from accessing treatment.

I will not say that Emily is not being honest as per how she sees the world, but given her biases, it is a discussion she needs to recuse herself from. She has poured a steady drip of propaganda in her ears and clearly has deranged herself on the issues.

She has repeatedly blamed trans advocates of advocating for surgical interventions, when the repeated and loud statement about this from the major medical organization pushing standards in trans care (WPATH) is "no, don't let that shit happen, that is crazy! Kids shouldn't be able to get surgeries. Make them wait till they are adults!"

Until she takes the time to sort out her own issues and pull the metaphorical planks from her eyes, she needs to actually sit down and think about this a LOT more, especially whatever motivates her to repeatedly claim that trans folks are down with mutilating kids.

As she mentioned herself, her trans relative is against the surgery. ALL the trans folks here are. I am. Nothing about that trans person's situation could possibly justify it unless they are holding their own life hostage for it.

But instead it is used as an ideological cudgel against the very folks that AGREE with her on this point!

There is some hidden motivator that Emily must be refusing to look at there. Emily needs to actually deal with that before she comes into discussions like this. I wish her all the best, but she needs to quit feeding herself whatever propaganda, and ask herself why she is so desperate to consume it.

 

[repoman]

Measure twice, cut once

 

[Jarhyn]

Measure twice, cut once

Yes, but usually it's a good idea to turn off the saw's feed system while you take the time to do the measuring, so it doesn't end up getting cut anyway before you can even put down the line.

Doing assessment during puberty is like putting the board blindly down on a self-feeding saw bed while the blade is going.

The board is going to get "cut" no matter what you do, unless you disable the feed towards the blade.

Metaphorically, blockers shut off the Feed towards the blade.

Of course, it's a pretty shit metaphor because in this the "cut" we are talking about is the activity of hormones in the body. This makes for an easy conflation error with respect to actual surgical cutting. In the metaphor, the surgical cutting is actually "gluing on scrap and having to use a chisel to fix your mistakes because you either let the board cut itself or didn't shut off the feed while you planned the work".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don’t intend to comment further in this thread, which seems to have devolved into personal attacks and a lot of wild spspeculation.

And herein is my complaint. The anti-trans nonsense is almost exclusively wild speculation. Dangerously wild speculation and accusation.

I ponder the similarities of the Christian right movement against trans in the US with their anti-gay movement in Africa.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don’t intend to comment further in this thread, which seems to have devolved into personal attacks and a lot of wild spspeculation.

And herein is my complaint. The anti-trans nonsense is almost exclusively wild speculation. Dangerously wild speculation and accusation.

I ponder the similarities of the Christian right movement against trans in the US with their anti-gay movement in Africa.

I wanted to fill this thought in a bit more.

There are definitely areas of concern, privacy in locker rooms, sports, that need to be dealt with. However, a lot of these legitimate concerns have been hijacked by the people trying to demonize transgenders and the doctors and professionals dealing with their care. And then there are the outrageous complaints, such as the recent mass shooting... no... the other mass shooting. No not that one... yes... that one. I see so many parallels with the anti-trans arguments that I see with voting fraud and liberal indoctrination of the schools. A freighter full of vapid and hollow accusations covering very broad territory, with no substance to justify them.

The mere act of accusation has grown in power for the alt-right. CRT, sexploitation (accusations of grooming!) of children in school, voter fraud, election fraud.

 

[TSwizzle]

No wonder so many people go private or home school;

A mother who says her eleven-year-old daughter's school encouraged her to transition has claimed officials kept her new gender a secret from her family. Aurora Regino is suing the Chico Unified School District in California and last week appeared at a school board meeting to reveal how the child had told a school counselor she felt like a boy - who immediately 'affirmed her new identity'. 'The elementary school transitioned her from female to male behind my back,' she said. 'During one of those one-on-one meetings my daughter told the counselor she wanted to tell me about her new identity - the counselor ignored her request.' But also at the board meeting was trans activist Squeaky Saint Francis who demanded that the school district maintain its 'parental secrecy' policy, claiming that without confidentiality, children's mental health will suffer and they could be driven to suicide. The Chico school district sided with the trans activist and voted to keep the secrecy policy in place with a 3-2 vote on April 5.

Daily Mail

Imagine taking policy advice from someone who goes by the name of "Squeaky Saint Francis".

 

[Jarhyn]

Fuck anyone who thinks parents have a right to any information about what is going on in their children's heads

Parents don't.

They have a right to ask, and if a child does not want to tell them, they shouldn't get to know.

Not every child's parent can understand every possible thing about them.

Educators can only be able to be an ally to abused children if abused children can feel safe in disclosing to educators. Sometimes that abuse consists of parents forcing an essentialist gender model on their children. But most importantly, that's not going to be reported to the parents. The police maybe, but not the parents.

Sometimes, it means also having the power to tell them about things that don't mount to abuse, but which are also to be kept secret. If there's any question of whether a kid can trust an educator with secrets in general, they won't trust them with the big ones.

So, if it's no wonder that parents would home school over this, it seems apparent to me that a lot of people who agree with homeschooling over it agree with exactly the laundry list of things that enable child abuse.

I wonder who covers for child abusers like that...

 

[TomC]

Is drag so unimportant that this thread must revert to a trans derail?

Drag isn't important to me particularly, I don't care what people wear or why(if anything).
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No wonder so many people go private or home school;

A mother who says her eleven-year-old daughter's school encouraged her to transition has claimed officials kept her new gender a secret from her family. Aurora Regino is suing the Chico Unified School District in California and last week appeared at a school board meeting to reveal how the child had told a school counselor she felt like a boy - who immediately 'affirmed her new identity'. 'The elementary school transitioned her from female to male behind my back,' she said. 'During one of those one-on-one meetings my daughter told the counselor she wanted to tell me about her new identity - the counselor ignored her request.' But also at the board meeting was trans activist Squeaky Saint Francis who demanded that the school district maintain its 'parental secrecy' policy, claiming that without confidentiality, children's mental health will suffer and they could be driven to suicide. The Chico school district sided with the trans activist and voted to keep the secrecy policy in place with a 3-2 vote on April 5.

Daily Mail

Imagine taking policy advice from someone who goes by the name of "Squeaky Saint Francis".

The minor could have told her parent(s). But thanks to the Daily Mail for their in depth coverage within local schools thousands of miles from England.

I can't wait for their piece on the insane prices at the bake sale at a school in Des Moines, Iowa.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think that the argument that children are ‘forced’ to endure the onslaught of hormones throughout their lives, from their earliest days is really off base. Here is a link from Cleveland Clinic listing all the hormones made by the human body and where the hormones are made within the body:

Hormones: What They Are, Function & Types

Hormones are chemicals that coordinate different functions in your body by carrying messages through your blood to your organs, skin, muscles and other tissues.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Human beings are not ‘forced’ to endure hormones: your body makes them to ensure that your body will grow and stop growing and will function in a healthy manner., abd to help you regulate normal body functions and responses to various stimuli, internal and external.

No child should be able to make decisions about puberty blockers without demonstrated need plus adequate consultation with medical professionals with qualified training, adequate ( read: lengthy) counseling by psychologists or psychiatrists with specific training in gender dysmorphia, and guidance from parents or other family members who are responsible for the child’s care.

This is a good post.

I really struggle with the entire concept that children are "forced" to go through puberty, and that they "ought to" have a choice about it. To me it seems as irrational as saying that people are "forced" to walk upright due to the interaction between the gravity and our evolved phenotype... and that people "ought to" have the choice to levitate instead. I have a really hard time even locating a point of shared perspective from which to have any meaningful discussion.

It feels like trying to have a discussion about the fastest route from Kyoto to San Diego when the other person truly believes the earth is flat.

It doesn't sound like you're trying to look for examples at all of any kind of thing that would have similarities. It sounds like you're trying to come up with many examples that are the opposite in order to support your point of view. Then, you're announcing them to convince others, not to understand the opposing perspective.

Here's some "help" but you're likely going to reject the examples because of your ideology. Kid wants to get vaccinated against covid. School, doctors, and parents are all in favor of it. Conservatives want to ban the vaccine, i.e. force the kid not to be vaccinated, and possibly get more sick.

 

[Emily Lake]

Pretty straightforward - go read any Planned Parenthood page on how they deal with it. They don't require any evaluation, and in most cases they will write you a prescription for cross-sex hormones or for puberty blockers on the same day as your first appointment.

Here's Planned Parenthoods pages on gender. I can find no references to evaluation and treatment at all. I suspect you've swallowed some BS by someone and decided to regurgitate it here.

Sex and Gender Identity

There’s more to gender than sex assigned at birth. What's biological sex or assigned sex? What does Female, Male, and Intersex mean?

www.plannedparenthood.org

Gender Affirming Care

www.plannedparenthood.org

What to Expect on Your First Visit?​

We offer gender affirming hormone care for patients 18 years and older at all of our health centers and via telehealth. At your first visit, a Planned Parenthood clinician will:

• Review your medical history, including your sexual and surgical history and current health practices
• Measure your weight and blood pressure
• Discuss your transition goals
• Draw your blood to watch for potential side effects of hormones
• Explain how to take hormones and answer any questions you might have

If hormone therapy is a good fit for you, you'll receive a prescription that you can take to a pharmacy.

Hormone Therapy - First Visit

What to expect on your first visit for gender affirming hormone therapy.

www.plannedparenthood.org

What to Expect on Your First Visit and Beyond​

Before you visit, please call to make an appointment and request gender affirming hormone therapy.

In most cases your clinician will be able to prescribe hormones the same day as your first visit. No letter from a mental health provider is required.

Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy

www.plannedparenthood.org

Your First Appointment​

At your first visit we will assess the following:

• Height, weight, and blood pressure
• Document your gender identity, pronouns, sex assigned at birth in your medical record. We ask all patients this information regardless of the reason for visit in order to provide the best care
• Review your medical history, medications, allergies, medical diagnoses (physical and mental health), surgical history, sexual and reproductive history and practices, family history
• Discuss your medical transition goals
• Review and sign the informed consent including expected changes with hormone therapy, invite and answer questions
• Blood lab work to monitor for potential side effects of hormone use

You will not be asked to change into a medical gown or have an exam unless you request an exam for a concern. All services including annual wellness checks (pelvic exams and cervical cancer screening), STD testing and treatment, HIV testing, pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP), clinical chest exams, cervical cancer screenings, human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccines, pregnancy testing, abortion care and other health care services are also available to all.

A typical initial visit can last up to 1 hour. Follow-up visits are generally shorter.

A clinician will work with you to determine a plan of care to best meet your goals. In most cases, the clinician will be able to send a prescription to your pharmacy the same day as your visit unless there are special conditions or contraindications.

Preparing for your Hormone Therapy Visit

www.plannedparenthood.org

What to Expect at your First Visit​

​

When booking, you'll be asked about your legal name and gender, as well as the way you identify, pronouns you use, and the name you prefer to be called. We do this so we can ensure we treat you with the highest level of courtesy.

During your appointment, our staff will collect a comprehensive medical history. You'll meet your clinician, who will get to know more about where you are in your process and the changes you hope to see, discuss with you the informed consent process, and will review both the positive effects and possible risk factors for hormone therapy. The office staff will collect routine lab work to make sure you are a healthy candidate for hormone therapy. Sometimes this lab work includes a blood draw. You do not need to fast in advance of getting your blood drawn.

Most patients are prescribed hormones that day. Our clinicians will work with you to help you decide what is best for you.

 

[Emily Lake]

Ffs, Jarhyn: At age 11 if I had been given the chance to just not have periods or grow breasts. I surely would have grabbed it. Even though I also wanted to have children. And then I grew up a little. A lot of 11 year olds are not that enthusiast about periods abd bras. Some of us could have used a little bit of reassurance and maybe a more positive relationship with our mothers. Puberty blockers? Not so much.

As far as I can tell from what Emily has stated about her family member, they only very recently announced that they wanted to be male and had shown no previous signs of ge fee dysmorphia.

My niece never showed any signs of anything even remotely resembling dysphoria, nor even a desire to not have breasts, until very recently... when she had already had breasts for 5 years.