Drag Shows

[Loren Pechtel]

Looks like the statue was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. It's really about how much control parents have:

(meterwalled)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/parents-rights-protests-kids/2021/10/21/5cf4920a-31d4-11ec-9241-aad8e48f01ff_story.html

 

[Arctish]

A member of a neo-Nazi group was arrested Friday after attempting to burn down a church in Ohio that was planning to host a drag show event

 

[ZiprHead]

A member of a neo-Nazi group was arrested Friday after attempting to burn down a church in Ohio that was planning to host a drag show event

Ohio police recommend LGBTQ+ organizers cancel drag event, organizers refuse

"Maybe the police should tell the Proud Boys not to come instead of telling the gays to hide."

thebuckeyeflame.com

On Thursday, Chester Township police chief Craig T. Young issued an official recommendation that LGBTQ+ organizers cancel a scheduled drag brunch and storytime event set to take place at the Community Church of Chesterland over the weekend.

In response, organizers instead announced plans to move forward with the event regardless of police presence, relying on private, hired security.

“In order to protect all involved, the children attending, and the residents of Chester Township, law enforcement officials have made an official recommendation to the event organizer, and the Community Church of Chesterland to cancel this event,” Young said in a written statement released Thursday morning, citing “a realistic threat that organized protests and counter-protests could result in violence.”

The Community Church of Chesterland, where the reading portion of the event is set to take place, suffered exterior damage earlier this week after detractors bombed the entrance with a Molotov cocktail.

Meanwhile, organizers urged police and other public officials to shift their approach to public safety when it comes to marginalized communities, imploring police officials to turn their attention away from private events and focus on keeping hate groups away.

“Maybe the police should tell the Proud Boys not to come instead of telling the gays to hide,” McMaster said.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, that whole concede to the terrorist's demand thing is quite telling.

 

[Toni]

It's gay people, almost entirely men, acting gay while putting on a gay show, mostly for gays, also almost entirely men.

The point is that these people just... Aren't interested in a domestic partnership, nor romantic trist, nor cheap sexual fling with anything approaching a woman, though they may be interested in spending time with a "lady".

Has it occurred to you that the implicit message here is that gay men aren't really men, and that this approach excludes gay men from the fraternity of males, and relegates them to the "Other" category, which includes women?

It's pretty much "Well, you're not manly enough to be a man, you're no better than a woman".

That effect is created, Tinkerbell style, from such suggestions. Not only do you deny magic, you bring it forth in the form of a vile curse, made true in some part by it's mere hearing.

You are filling in, and making those statements. You Emily Lake, are planting a seed of "you are not manly enough".

It's exactly the sort of essentialism I expected from you though.

You could say exactly the same thing as a description of the consequences of being fucked by a man at all, penis or no.

It's gay people, almost entirely men, acting gay while putting on a gay show, mostly for gays, also almost entirely men.

The point is that these people just... Aren't interested in a domestic partnership, nor romantic trist, nor cheap sexual fling with anything approaching a woman, though they may be interested in spending time with a "lady".

Has it occurred to you that the implicit message here is that gay men aren't really men, and that this approach excludes gay men from the fraternity of males, and relegates them to the "Other" category, which includes women?

It's pretty much "Well, you're not manly enough to be a man, you're no better than a woman".

That effect is created, Tinkerbell style, from such suggestions. Not only do you deny magic, you bring it forth in the form of a vile curse, made true in some part by it's mere hearing.

You are filling in, and making those statements. You Emily Lake, are planting a seed of "you are not manly enough".

It's exactly the sort of essentialism I expected from you though.

You could say exactly the same thing as a description of the consequences of being fucked by a man at all, penis or no.

I don’t agree. I’m of a different generation than you and there used to be very much a suggestion/idea that gay men weren’t really ‘manly’ and indeed that they were too feminine or effeminate. Even men liking to cook or being good with children or a anything g except being some clone of version of John Wayne or Clint Eastwood meant that he wasn’t ‘manly.’ This is a huge reason that men of my father’s generation were so emotionally repressed.

Guys who were not sufficiently manly were referred to effeminate, or as momma’s boys, sissies, or as fairies, Tinkerbelle or in terms that were derisive of women. Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth, for boys or girls. So was You throw like a girl or basically You do anything like a girl. Girl was an insult. Woman was an insult. Gay boys I knew as college students during a time that put them about in your generation referred to themselves as slits or whores, in joking, self deprecating/self co granularity terms.

Emily Lake and I seem to be relatively close in age—within 10 years. We degmfinyemy grew up with the idea that if you wanted to insult someone, you referred to them as female ( fill in blank) : girl, girly, slut, woman, etc. being ‘not manly enough’ was an insult s d it even applied to girls to a certain extent—who were also not supposed to be in sufficiently feminine.

This is not something that Emily was making up or inventing. It was the reality we grew up with—damaging enough to straight cis girls. Much worse for boys. I remember my parents being surprised at how good my husband was with our first born when he was an infant. Men of my father’s generation did not change diapers, bathe children or cook or clean. Neither did many of the husbands of my friends. I was really lucky/smart: my husband cooks, washes dishes and is great with kids. This was not very common when we were young adults.

It’s great if things are not like that for you. I don’t think it was the same or not to the same extent with my kids’ generation/nearly your contemporaries, I’m guessing. That’s real progress.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's gay people, almost entirely men, acting gay while putting on a gay show, mostly for gays, also almost entirely men.

The point is that these people just... Aren't interested in a domestic partnership, nor romantic trist, nor cheap sexual fling with anything approaching a woman, though they may be interested in spending time with a "lady".

Has it occurred to you that the implicit message here is that gay men aren't really men, and that this approach excludes gay men from the fraternity of males, and relegates them to the "Other" category, which includes women?

It's pretty much "Well, you're not manly enough to be a man, you're no better than a woman".

That effect is created, Tinkerbell style, from such suggestions. Not only do you deny magic, you bring it forth in the form of a vile curse, made true in some part by it's mere hearing.

You are filling in, and making those statements. You Emily Lake, are planting a seed of "you are not manly enough".

It's exactly the sort of essentialism I expected from you though.

You could say exactly the same thing as a description of the consequences of being fucked by a man at all, penis or no.

It's gay people, almost entirely men, acting gay while putting on a gay show, mostly for gays, also almost entirely men.

The point is that these people just... Aren't interested in a domestic partnership, nor romantic trist, nor cheap sexual fling with anything approaching a woman, though they may be interested in spending time with a "lady".

Has it occurred to you that the implicit message here is that gay men aren't really men, and that this approach excludes gay men from the fraternity of males, and relegates them to the "Other" category, which includes women?

It's pretty much "Well, you're not manly enough to be a man, you're no better than a woman".

That effect is created, Tinkerbell style, from such suggestions. Not only do you deny magic, you bring it forth in the form of a vile curse, made true in some part by it's mere hearing.

You are filling in, and making those statements. You Emily Lake, are planting a seed of "you are not manly enough".

It's exactly the sort of essentialism I expected from you though.

You could say exactly the same thing as a description of the consequences of being fucked by a man at all, penis or no.

I don’t agree. I’m of a different generation than you and there used to be very much a suggestion/idea that gay men weren’t really ‘manly’ and indeed that they were too feminine or effeminate. Even men liking to cook or being good with children or a anything g except being some clone of version of John Wayne or Clint Eastwood meant that he wasn’t ‘manly.’ This is a huge reason that men of my father’s generation were so emotionally repressed.

Guys who were not sufficiently manly were referred to effeminate, or as momma’s boys, sissies, or as fairies, Tinkerbelle or in terms that were derisive of women. Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth, for boys or girls. So was You throw like a girl or basically You do anything like a girl. Girl was an insult. Woman was an insult. Gay boys I knew as college students during a time that put them about in your generation referred to themselves as slits or whores, in joking, self deprecating/self co granularity terms.

Emily Lake and I seem to be relatively close in age—within 10 years. We degmfinyemy grew up with the idea that if you wanted to insult someone, you referred to them as female ( fill in blank) : girl, girly, slut, woman, etc. being ‘not manly enough’ was an insult s d it even applied to girls to a certain extent—who were also not supposed to be in sufficiently feminine.

This is not something that Emily was making up or inventing. It was the reality we grew up with—damaging enough to straight cis girls. Much worse for boys. I remember my parents being surprised at how good my husband was with our first born when he was an infant. Men of my father’s generation did not change diapers, bathe children or cook or clean. Neither did many of the husbands of my friends. I was really lucky/smart: my husband cooks, washes dishes and is great with kids. This was not very common when we were young adults.

It’s great if things are not like that for you. I don’t think it was the same or not to the same extent with my kids’ generation/nearly your contemporaries, I’m guessing. That’s real progress.

Things were like that for me too, but stating it in such a way as to bring it up without recognizing it is not true is what keeps it alive. It is what makes the idea spawn.

The solution is to never bring it up except when already contextually discussing why it is injurious, ridiculous, and false, as you do.

There should be a certain shame in reading or speaking such bollocks without such a perception, mostly because of the aforementioned bollocks-ness.

 

[Toni]

I don’t read Emily Lake’s post the same way that you do. To me, it was obvious that she pretty strongly was condemning the idea that being gay made someone no better than a woman, every bit as much as I would condemn such sentiments. Being gay isn’t bad. Being a woman or female isn’t bad. But both were considered very insulting—obviously beneath ‘real’ men. Lesbians were even lower, if possible.


I think that it can be really difficult to discern tone and intention with forum posts. I know that sometimes, I’ve misinterpreted people’s posts and have been misinterpreted as well. That may have happened here.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don’t read Emily Lake’s post the same way that you do. To me, it was obvious that she pretty strongly was condemning the idea that being gay made someone no better than a woman, every bit as much as I would condemn such sentiments. Being gay isn’t bad. Being a woman or female isn’t bad. But both were considered very insulting—obviously beneath ‘real’ men. Lesbians were even lower, if possible.


I think that it can be really difficult to discern tone and intention with forum posts. I know that sometimes, I’ve misinterpreted people’s posts and have been misinterpreted as well. That may have happened here.

Maybe? It's all the more reason to take care to uniformly say those quiet parts out loud every time, and to make a habit of it.

It is like saying the n-word. You can't just drop it there and hope people won't misunderstand. There will be social consequences and there should be for anyone old enough to speak and who has ever heard it after such a time as they started using words, at least following a period of about 12 hours after the first time.

After that, they should have it explained to them that you just don't say that word, ever, about anyone, and then later by some years "unless explaining to someone why you don't say that word, and to discuss it's use, following a discussion of why you are about to say it which is accepted by those who you are saying it to, AND it is not used in such a way as to even perhaps be mistaken as discussing a person or group of persons as a pejorative."

Failing to fully contextualize the behavior not as "male", not as "manly" but as "weak and insecure posturing" and even "toxic" itself has the power to perpetuate or allow internalization.

It's about putting available thoughts clearly in a bucket of suspicion to make them nonreactive to those who are attempting to research them or who are exposed, much like bathing metallic potassium in mineral oil for study.

 

[Toni]

Maybe….but I can think of one or two or three posters that I’m pretty quick to take offense at or exception to what they wrote ( and sometimes it’s mutual). I’m trying to be better about that and not …infer what they did not imply, not always successful.

It’s a lot to write out every single time.

Maybe because I very much relate to Emily Lake because of the common/shared experiences of growing up female in a similar place in time, I got exactly what she was saying ( or I’m assuming that I did) in a way that maybe you aren’t quite granting her because you disagree so vehemently with her in some ways. So do I! And you and I disagree very sharply sometimes as well.

Anyway, something to consider. Hey, I’ve just spent the last couple of days ripping my husband’s head off because of ( stupid stuff) because I’ve been in a really lousy mood for no reason that’s close to his fault even if he just will not close doors properly! Arraignment Day has cheered me up considerably and so I am doing my best to spread peace and love wherever I can.

 

[bilby]

Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth

Hey!

 

[Jarhyn]

Maybe….but I can think of one or two or three posters that I’m pretty quick to take offense at or exception to what they wrote ( and sometimes it’s mutual). I’m trying to be better about that and not …infer what they did not imply, not always successful.

It’s a lot to write out every single time.

Maybe because I very much relate to Emily Lake because of the common/shared experiences of growing up female in a similar place in time, I got exactly what she was saying ( or I’m assuming that I did) in a way that maybe you aren’t quite granting her because you disagree so vehemently with her in some ways. So do I! And you and I disagree very sharply sometimes as well.

Anyway, something to consider. Hey, I’ve just spent the last couple of days ripping my husband’s head off because of ( stupid stuff) because I’ve been in a really lousy mood for no reason that’s close to his fault even if he just will not close doors properly! Arraignment Day has cheered me up considerably and so I am doing my best to spread peace and love wherever I can.

Hey, I get getting mad for not closing doors.

We have a screen door, and every morning where our housemate doesn't make sure the door closes and latches, a cat will come by, pull the door open, and spray inside our mudroom.

Sometimes closing the doors properly IS important. Sometimes it isn't, sure... But sometime it is, too!

The difference is, you don't accuse me of mutilating children while protecting a legislative action that both legalizes the mutilation of children explicitly, and another law which both does that and outlaws becoming a eunuch *even if it's temporary*.

 

[Toni]

Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth

Hey!

Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth

Hey!

Stupid auto-correct! I wrote S I S S I E

Thanks for taking it as a joke. When I was a kid and where I was a kid, no one would have known what anyone was talking about if you said Aussie. I lived...in the sticks, so to speak.

 

[Toni]

Maybe….but I can think of one or two or three posters that I’m pretty quick to take offense at or exception to what they wrote ( and sometimes it’s mutual). I’m trying to be better about that and not …infer what they did not imply, not always successful.

It’s a lot to write out every single time.

Maybe because I very much relate to Emily Lake because of the common/shared experiences of growing up female in a similar place in time, I got exactly what she was saying ( or I’m assuming that I did) in a way that maybe you aren’t quite granting her because you disagree so vehemently with her in some ways. So do I! And you and I disagree very sharply sometimes as well.

Anyway, something to consider. Hey, I’ve just spent the last couple of days ripping my husband’s head off because of ( stupid stuff) because I’ve been in a really lousy mood for no reason that’s close to his fault even if he just will not close doors properly! Arraignment Day has cheered me up considerably and so I am doing my best to spread peace and love wherever I can.

Hey, I get getting mad for not closing doors.

We have a screen door, and every morning where our housemate doesn't make sure the door closes and latches, a cat will come by, pull the door open, and spray inside our mudroom.

Sometimes closing the doors properly IS important. Sometimes it isn't, sure... But sometime it is, too!

The difference is, you don't accuse me of mutilating children while protecting a legislative action that both legalizes the mutilation of children explicitly, and another law which both does that and outlaws becoming a eunuch *even if it's temporary*.

Yeah, I quit following the thread very carefully.

I totally understand EmilyLake's concerns about puberty blockers for children and what future harm they *might* cause. I'm not well enough educated on the long term effects of puberty blockers on children. I know that they are also used for children who are undergoing a very early puberty which has its own concerns and issues, health wise, mental health wise, and socially. But I'm not educated enough on the issue.

I really really really am hesitant about surgical intervention for gender confirmation on anyone who is not yet legally an adult. It's very very permanent. But then, I'm not trans, and no one close to me is trans so I am not so intimately involved and not as knowledgeable as I would be in other circumstances. I know that Emily Lake has someone who is a close relative who is trans and while Emily seems supportive, I know she's not thrilled with the idea of puberty blockers because of potential future harms, especially if the child feels differently down the line, and surgery even more so.

What I think is that our base of knowledge and our understanding, within the medical community and especially for lay persons such as myself, is incomplete. It's leaps and bounds ahead of what it was 20 or 50 years ago, for certain.

 

[Jarhyn]

I really really really am hesitant about surgical intervention for gender confirmation on anyone who is not yet legally an adult. It's very very permanent. But then, I'm not trans, and no one close to me is trans so I am not so intimately involved and not as knowledgeable as I would be in other circumstances. I know that Emily Lake has someone who is a close relative who is trans and while Emily seems supportive, I know she's not thrilled with the idea of puberty blockers because of potential future harms, especially if the child feels differently down the line, and surgery even more so.

I agree. This is why people should not be denied the ability to defer any bodily development of new traits which can themselves only be unmade surgically, and informed of this availability in a way completely neutral to its application.

Making the decision to modify existing bodily structures can wait until someone is an adult, but cessation of the situations which lead to continued trait development is necessary to that goal, if we are to avoid dead teens who kill themselves because they are for the next decade trapped in a breasted body.

As to the effects of blocking puberty, we have tens of thousands of years of recorded discussions about what people have observed or thought that has been observed about eunuchs, and additionally over a hundred years of observation of those effects across the whole of the animal kingdom in the "scientific age" when this happens, also to include the occasional castrated human.

The opportunity to "pump the breaks" because we were unsure of the effects, as pertains to the oldest surgery in the history of the world, was some point in prehistory, though, as far as consenting adults are concerned

 

[bilby]

Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth

Hey!

Being a Aussie was a pretty big insult on the playgrounds of my youth

Hey!

Stupid auto-correct! I wrote S I S S I E

Yeah, the context made that the only plausible explanation. Sometimes I suspect autocarrot has a sense of humour.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don’t read Emily Lake’s post the same way that you do. To me, it was obvious that she pretty strongly was condemning the idea that being gay made someone no better than a woman, every bit as much as I would condemn such sentiments. Being gay isn’t bad. Being a woman or female isn’t bad. But both were considered very insulting—obviously beneath ‘real’ men. Lesbians were even lower, if possible.


I think that it can be really difficult to discern tone and intention with forum posts. I know that sometimes, I’ve misinterpreted people’s posts and have been misinterpreted as well. That may have happened here.

Your interpretation is spot on.

 

[Emily Lake]

Maybe? It's all the more reason to take care to uniformly say those quiet parts out loud every time, and to make a habit of it.

It is like saying the n-word.

You know what? You're unintentionally on the nose here.

You can't just drop it there and hope people won't misunderstand.

Well, you were on the nose, then you fell off the face altogether.

There will be social consequences and there should be for anyone old enough to speak and who has ever heard it after such a time as they started using words, at least following a period of about 12 hours after the first time.

My view is not that you "spell out the quiet parts when you use the n-word". My view is YOU DO NOT USE THE N-WORD. And that applies regardless of any person's ethnicity or melanin content.

It's the same thing here, and the same underlying sentiment.

Drag as an expression for gay men grew out of an era where being gay was a "horrible thing" in the eyes of the public... the only thing worse was being a woman. So gay men "embraced" that demonization and expressed themselves by dressing up as the very worst thing that society could make them: women.

Gay men embracing the denigration of woman hood is, in my opinion, insulting to gay men as well as to women. It still ends up reinforcing the idea that gay men aren't "real men" and that they're no better than women. It still reinforces womanhood as something bad.

 

[Emily Lake]

I know that Emily Lake has someone who is a close relative who is trans and while Emily seems supportive, I know she's not thrilled with the idea of puberty blockers because of potential future harms, especially if the child feels differently down the line, and surgery even more so.

I have two relatives who currently identify as trans. One of them is male, and identifies as a woman. They were pretty gender non-conforming as a child, and they made the decision to undergo transition at the age of 21. They have decided NOT to have any surgical procedures, and is only taking hormones. Part of their decision for that approach is that they did a LOT of research. And while they're pretty confident that they identify as a woman, they are also aware that they have some other mental health conditions that could be contributing to it, and they want to have the option to go back to living as a man if they later change their mind.

Kudos to my now-niece for being extremely rational about the whole thing. She has my full support.

The other is female and has JUST turned 18. They started taking testosterone just before they turned 17, after only have expressed anything remotely resembling a transgender identity for about a month, and after having spent a grand total of 30 minutes talking to a gender specialist. They are bipolar, and have been struggling with depression and anxiety for several years. They're scheduled to get their breasts amputated in May.

I don't think my younger niece is actually transgender at all. I think she's confused, I think she's had a really hard time dealing with her parent's divorce, and I think she very much needs counseling - which she refuses. I fear that she is going to regret the permanent changes she is making to her body. None of us - including her older sibling - believe that she is actually transgender.

I love my younger niece, and I will always be here for her. But I think this is a horrible idea that will end very badly, and I fear the toll this will take on her mental health.

 

[Emily Lake]

I really really really am hesitant about surgical intervention for gender confirmation on anyone who is not yet legally an adult. It's very very permanent. But then, I'm not trans, and no one close to me is trans so I am not so intimately involved and not as knowledgeable as I would be in other circumstances. I know that Emily Lake has someone who is a close relative who is trans and while Emily seems supportive, I know she's not thrilled with the idea of puberty blockers because of potential future harms, especially if the child feels differently down the line, and surgery even more so.

I agree. This is why people should not be denied the ability to defer any bodily development of new traits which can themselves only be unmade surgically, and informed of this availability in a way completely neutral to its application.

Making the decision to modify existing bodily structures can wait until someone is an adult, but cessation of the situations which lead to continued trait development is necessary to that goal, if we are to avoid dead teens who kill themselves because they are for the next decade trapped in a breasted body.

As to the effects of blocking puberty, we have tens of thousands of years of recorded discussions about what people have observed or thought that has been observed about eunuchs, and additionally over a hundred years of observation of those effects across the whole of the animal kingdom in the "scientific age" when this happens, also to include the occasional castrated human.

The opportunity to "pump the breaks" because we were unsure of the effects, as pertains to the oldest surgery in the history of the world, was some point in prehistory, though, as far as consenting adults are concerned

What you're talking about is halting puberty, which locks the individual into a childlike state. This is what happens to pre-pubertal eunuchs, as well as to neutered and spayed animals. That's not the same as how you describe puberty blockers as "pumping the brakes". You keep referring to blockers as if they're fully reversible with no side effects.

But they aren't. They interrupt a natural process which is time-bound. As an example, if you have a child who would go through a normal puberty starting at age 12, with the majority of sexual development being complete by age 16, you're talking about a 4-year window. If they start blockers at 12 and take them for 4 years... they don't start 4 years worth of puberty when they stop them. They're going to get very little sexual development. If they're female, they'll likely still start menarche, but they probably won't develop an adult sized uterus. And while they'll have some breast development, they won't complete breast development. If they're male, their penis is unlikely to elongate to a mature size, their voice may never drop, they may never have the ability to produce sperm.. And in both cases, they will have missed the window for the accretion of bone density, and are likely to have osteopenia for their entire lives.

 

[Toni]

I know that Emily Lake has someone who is a close relative who is trans and while Emily seems supportive, I know she's not thrilled with the idea of puberty blockers because of potential future harms, especially if the child feels differently down the line, and surgery even more so.

I have two relatives who currently identify as trans. One of them is male, and identifies as a woman. They were pretty gender non-conforming as a child, and they made the decision to undergo transition at the age of 21. They have decided NOT to have any surgical procedures, and is only taking hormones. Part of their decision for that approach is that they did a LOT of research. And while they're pretty confident that they identify as a woman, they are also aware that they have some other mental health conditions that could be contributing to it, and they want to have the option to go back to living as a man if they later change their mind.

Kudos to my now-niece for being extremely rational about the whole thing. She has my full support.

The other is female and has JUST turned 18. They started taking testosterone just before they turned 17, after only have expressed anything remotely resembling a transgender identity for about a month, and after having spent a grand total of 30 minutes talking to a gender specialist. They are bipolar, and have been struggling with depression and anxiety for several years. They're scheduled to get their breasts amputated in May.

I don't think my younger niece is actually transgender at all. I think she's confused, I think she's had a really hard time dealing with her parent's divorce, and I think she very much needs counseling - which she refuses. I fear that she is going to regret the permanent changes she is making to her body. None of us - including her older sibling - believe that she is actually transgender.

I love my younger niece, and I will always be here for her. But I think this is a horrible idea that will end very badly, and I fear the toll this will take on her mental health.

The situation with your younger niece is heartbreaking. It is easy to see how much you love her, care about her and are concerned that she is not getting the needed counseling going through such a difficult time with her parents’ divorce.