And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[TomC]

One thing that bothers me is when we get reports like this... from stories that are nearly a year old. I'm usually better at catching the old news thing.

Did the law being referred to exist a year ago? If not, the thread title is somewhere between false and misleading. It would represent the sort of important details that commonly get left out when someone is more concerned about pushing an agenda than accuracy.

Similarly Ruiz would not be the first drunk guy to earn a butt kicking by messing with women. The fact that he used the women's room doesn't necessarily prove that was the reason. Yeah, sometimes people bring it upon themselves by bad behavior.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Complains about reporting bias.

Interprets the situation in the most transparently biased fashion imaginable.

 

[TomC]

Complains about reporting bias.

Interprets the situation in the most transparently biased fashion imaginable.

This is the kind of misrepresentation I've come to expect.

Pointing out that the situation is murky and a hot button political issue, therefore I remain skeptical of pronouncements by IIDB ideologues, isn't an interpretation of the event. I'm the one who keeps saying "Nobody really knows".
Tom

 

[southernhybrid]

This thread reminds me of when I was a kid arguing with my sister and we kept saying to each other: "I know you are but what am I".

 

[ZiprHead]

Complains about reporting bias.

Interprets the situation in the most transparently biased fashion imaginable.

This is the kind of misrepresentation I've come to expect.

Pointing out that the situation is murky and a hot button political issue, therefore I remain skeptical of pronouncements by IIDB ideologues, isn't an interpretation of the event. I'm the one who keeps saying "Nobody really knows".
Tom

You've said a lot more about this situation than that. The part you didn't mention above is the part the "IIDB ideologues" are addressing.

 

[Gospel]

Complains about reporting bias.

Interprets the situation in the most transparently biased fashion imaginable.

This is the kind of misrepresentation I've come to expect.

Pointing out that the situation is murky and a hot button political issue, therefore I remain skeptical of pronouncements by IIDB ideologues, isn't an interpretation of the event. I'm the one who keeps saying "Nobody really knows".
Tom

You've said a lot more about this situation than that. The part you didn't mention above is the part the "IIDB ideologues" are addressing.

Let bygones be bygones. I'm just happy to see TomC actually say something. I'm even willing to let it slide that the drunk guy that may have done something to warrant a butt kicking was actually born a girl since I get the point. It's definitely possible that Ruiz instigated the assault.

The assault being illegal is not a point TomC has addressed so I see no reason to hammer that as well.

 

[TomC]

The assault being illegal is not a point TomC has addressed so I see no reason to hammer that as well.

Well, as @bilby has pointed out, straight arming someone who tries to jump the queue at a cinema is illegal assault.

I'm not justifying the behavior of the guys who hit Ruiz. I'm pretty pacifist myself.

Looks to me like the problem started with the campground owner who "advised" Ruiz to use the women's facilities. Looks like a very bad decision to me. To my mind, "When in doubt, use the men's. Guys aren't as easily threatened and emotional about it." No guarantees though. It's just all really messy when people start pushing well established social norms and boundaries. Throw in some alcohol and it's kind of a recipe for disaster.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Complains about reporting bias.

Interprets the situation in the most transparently biased fashion imaginable.

This is the kind of misrepresentation I've come to expect.

Pointing out that the situation is murky and a hot button political issue, therefore I remain skeptical of pronouncements by IIDB ideologues, isn't an interpretation of the event. I'm the one who keeps saying "Nobody really knows".
Tom

If that's all you'd said, I wouldn't have commented.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not justifying the behavior of the guys who hit Ruiz.

Uh, yeah. You are. Why is it in any way relevant to speculate aloud about what Ruiz might have done to "cause" his own beating, unless to defray the guilt of his assaulters? There's no reason to throw out mitigating cirsumstances except to portray their violence as having been somehow responsive rather than aggressive.

It's just all really messy when people start pushing well established social norms and boundaries. Throw in some alcohol and it's kind of a recipe for disaster.

It is not illegal to "push really well established social norms and boundaries", nor should it be. Nor is it illegal to drink. Assault, however, is certainly illegal no matter the supposed provocation. People who beat other people up generally do argue that they were somehow provoked, but that does not change their ethical or legal situation very much, generally speaking.

You and I push "push really well established social norms and boundaries" just by fucking existing, so I really don't understand your sympathies in this case. If you were a kid, that'd be one thing. The Zoomers grew up in a different world, one where people lied and said they'd be safe admitting what they are to their neighbors. One where "coming out of the closet" was an accepted ritual rather than an accidental life sentence. But you didn't. I didn't. So what's your long game, here?

 

[TomC]

Uh, yeah. You are.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You make up stuff and believe it so thoroughly that you start attributing motivations to people.

Making up stuff that supports your ideological narrative, even when it's contradicting the evidence.

You are certain that Ruiz is a victim of transphobic violence. I'm not. Maybe, maybe not. Probably it's a combination of stuff.
But you refuse to accept the possibility that anything outside your ideological bubble can be true. So you attribute motivation to people that you know nothing about.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

But you refuse to accept the possibility that anything outside your ideological bubble can be true. So you attribute motivation to people that you know nothing about.
Tom

Another irony meter blown to pieces.

 

[TomC]

But you refuse to accept the possibility that anything outside your ideological bubble can be true. So you attribute motivation to people that you know nothing about.
Tom

Another irony meter blown to pieces.

Totally brilliant dude.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm just waiting for my niece, an ace cis-female with a beard, to text me or call me in tears after something like this happens to her... And she's not even trans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

One thing that bothers me is when we get reports like this... from stories that are nearly a year old. I'm usually better at catching the old news thing.

Did the law being referred to exist a year ago? If not, the thread title is somewhere between false and misleading.

Which laws? The anti-trans mania is post pandemic and the bathroom laws are not quite as new as DeSantis bullshit laws.

It would represent the sort of important details that commonly get left out when someone is more concerned about pushing an agenda than accuracy.

The important details were included in the article you didn't read.

• Ruiz had been going there since before he was 12.
• Ruiz transitioned at 12.
• Ruiz was intoxicated.
• We can infer Sheriff did accept there was an assault.

What we don't know is if the assaulters couldn't be identified, the assault wasn't serious enough to arrest people, or what. I can't find anything on that.

Similarly Ruiz would not be the first drunk guy to earn a butt kicking by messing with women.

Nor would be the first LGBT to be attacked because of bigotry. Which renders your 'why don't know what happened, he could have earned a beating' response a bit odd.

The fact that he used the women's room doesn't necessarily prove that was the reason.

Though he has been using the woman's restroom there since he was 12 (well presumably before that too before he transitioned).

Meanwhile, Ruiz pled guilty to aggravated disorderly/conduct in October 2022, and the obstruction stuff was dropped.

 

[Politesse]

You are certain that Ruiz is a victim of transphobic violence.

Even your fanciful reinterpretation of events doesn't change that obvious fact.

 

[Politesse]

Uh, yeah. You are.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You make up stuff and believe it so thoroughly that you start attributing motivations to people.

Making up stuff that supports your ideological narrative, even when it's contradicting the evidence.

You are certain that Ruiz is a victim of transphobic violence. I'm not. Maybe, maybe not. Probably it's a combination of stuff.
But you refuse to accept the possibility that anything outside your ideological bubble can be true. So you attribute motivation to people that you know nothing about.
Tom

Why do you post this all this nonsense, if you're going to get offended when people read and respond to it? Had you just written "the facts aren't clear, so I haven't made up my mind", your post would be pointless, but inoffensive.

 

[Toni]

If I understand things correctly, a trans man went into the women’s restroom where, with his male appearance, he caused some alarm on the part of a woman also using the restroom. He used that restroom because that was what he was directed to do.

Some men outside heard a woman cry out about some creepy man and a fight ensued.
They apparently thought they were defending a woman who believed she needed help.

I don’t know who needs to hear this but when one is frightened or even badly startled, one often is unable to hear the perfectly rational words of the person who elicited the fright response.

Obviously the trans man did nothing wrong. Not do I think that the woman who was so alarmed did anything wrong under the circumstances as she perceived them. Like it or not. (And believe me: I do not like it at all) women have all grown up to fear being attacked by strange men invading their private spaces. Yes, most people who are attacked by someone they know but still, stranger attacks do happen. Women who have been attacked are often criticized for not crying out, shouting no! or fighting back. The woman in this article did exactly as she was conditioned to do.

I would argue that so did the three men who attacked the trans man—who had also done nothing wrong!!. Those men thought they were defending a woman who was being victimized. I don’t see that 3 men needed to beat up a third. I certainly sympathize with the trans man who was forced to defend himself.

This is a horrible situation but: the person(s) who did wrong were whoever made the ruling that trans individuals need to use the restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth. I hope that sincere apologies are issued and accepted all around and that there is prompt action correcting the terrible miscarriage of justice of forcing people to use public restrooms that are incongruent with their appearance.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Obviously the trans man did nothing wrong. Not do I think that the woman who was so alarmed did anything wrong under the circumstances as she perceived them. Like it or not. (And believe me: I do not like it at all) women have all grown up to fear being attacked by strange men invading their private spaces. Yes, most people who are attacked by someone they know but still, stranger attacks do happen. Women who have been attacked are often criticized for not crying out, shouting no! or fighting back. The woman in this article did exactly as she was conditioned to do.

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

I would argue that so did the three men who attacked the trans man—who had also done nothing wrong!!. Those men thought they were defending a woman who was being victimized. I don’t see that 3 men needed to beat up a third. I certainly sympathize with the trans man who was forced to defend himself.

The three men did do something wrong--used force where none was warranted.

This is a horrible situation but: the person(s) who did wrong were whoever made the ruling that trans individuals need to use the restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth. I hope that sincere apologies are issued and accepted all around and that there is prompt action correcting the terrible miscarriage of justice of forcing people to use public restrooms that are incongruent with their appearance.

Are you going to apologize to yourself? Because you've been arguing for use-your-own-gender laws. We keep pointing out the flip side to this and you stick your fingers in your ears. Rather than MTFs that you generally would never notice you get FTMs and the very issue you tried to avoid.

 

[laughing dog]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

 

[Toni]

Obviously the trans man did nothing wrong. Not do I think that the woman who was so alarmed did anything wrong under the circumstances as she perceived them. Like it or not. (And believe me: I do not like it at all) women have all grown up to fear being attacked by strange men invading their private spaces. Yes, most people who are attacked by someone they know but still, stranger attacks do happen. Women who have been attacked are often criticized for not crying out, shouting no! or fighting back. The woman in this article did exactly as she was conditioned to do.

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

I would argue that so did the three men who attacked the trans man—who had also done nothing wrong!!. Those men thought they were defending a woman who was being victimized. I don’t see that 3 men needed to beat up a third. I certainly sympathize with the trans man who was forced to defend himself.

The three men did do something wrong--used force where none was warranted.

This is a horrible situation but: the person(s) who did wrong were whoever made the ruling that trans individuals need to use the restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth. I hope that sincere apologies are issued and accepted all around and that there is prompt action correcting the terrible miscarriage of justice of forcing people to use public restrooms that are incongruent with their appearance.

Are you going to apologize to yourself? Because you've been arguing for use-your-own-gender laws. We keep pointing out the flip side to this and you stick your fingers in your ears. Rather than MTFs that you generally would never notice you get FTMs and the very issue you tried to avoid.

I’m thrilled for you, Loren, that you are totally comfortable in gender neutral bathrooms and with public nudity. That’s great—for you.

You did not start fending off sexual advances long before you even thought if your first kiss. You were never told your skirt was too long or too short and that if girls could wear pants to school, it would signal the moral failing of our nation.

You were not called a flirt if you could look someone in the eye and make a joke or a snob if you avoided doing just that.

Mostly, you were not conditioned to fear rape or blamed in advance if it happened to you. You did not read a beloved book that centers on what happened to a black man when a young woman lied about him raping her. Yes, we grew up on stories of lying women and girls or ones who killed themselves out of shame for having been violated by their family member or the captain of the football team or the bus driver or the youth pastor or whoever.

You will never ever ever consider that you are a self righteous asshole who blithely expects women to tolerate whatever men care to dish out because it dies te er hurt them. Or not that they will admit. I have been assured, however, that it is worse for a boy to be raped by a man than for a girl to be raped by a man. Must be why no one ever talks about that…

I realize that the subtlety will escape you but the instance in the OP was of a trans man, who appeared to be a man, using the bathroom he was told he must use because he was designated female at birth. Women’s bathrooms have stalls with doors. No one ever sees someone else’s genitals.

This is a significantly different scenario than a women’s locker room where women commonly shown in open showers and where we are now told that we must expect and accept someone with a male appearing body standing next to us in the shower and we are bigots akin to racists and Nazis if we object.

It’s the same damn scenario, Loren: women encountering someone who appears male in a women’s only space and freaking out. As I predicted would happen.

The trans man involved was forced into a situation that was threatening to women and resulted in violence towards himself. This could have been prevented if he had been allowed to use the bathroom that reflected his gender and his appearance.