And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[Toni]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

 

[Politesse]

I would respond if it weren't obviously pointless to do so. No, damn it, I am responding, even though I know it's pointless.

I assume my assigned gender means I have no right to comment, as before? Because all men and all trans people deserve to be treated as kiddie rapists just in case?

Your posts turn my stomach, Toni. It's worse because I know you to usually be a good and kind person. But that does not excuse dehumanization of others.

 

[laughing dog]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

 

[Toni]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

Oh, I agree. But they were reacting to a woman screaming in fear. They *thought* they were being heroes.

 

[laughing dog]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

Oh, I agree. But they were reacting to a woman screaming in fear. They *thought* they were being heroes.

So? It is their choice of action ( violence) that makes them jackasses, not their choice to come to a rescue.

 

[Gospel]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

 

[thebeave]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

 

[thebeave]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

 

[laughing dog]

This would have been avoided if three men didn’t think with their fists.

 

[Politesse]

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions

Treating other people with respect isn't complicated, people just don't like doing it.

 

[thebeave]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

But feminine looking women is not the issue we're talking about. Its the trans men that are the issue, and that gets the ire of the men we're talking about.

 

[thebeave]

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions

Treating other people with respect isn't complicated, people just don't like doing it.

No argument here.

 

[Politesse]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Articles indicate he'd been using the women's rest room at that campground for eight years post transition, as per the guidance of the campground owners. And presumably these days, the law. Didn't appear to be an issue until some Kevins got involved.

Also, regarding solutions, we were told this was the right one. Alt-righters saying "birth gender!! birth gender!" Seems nice that at least you seem to appreciate that issues can be nuanced.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

Oh, I agree. But they were reacting to a woman screaming in fear. They *thought* they were being heroes.

Screaming?

 

[Gospel]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

Oh, I agree. But they were reacting to a woman screaming in fear. They *thought* they were being heroes.

Screaming

How's about making a fuss? That work better for you?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

From the articles I read, it sounded like a woman doubted that person's right to be there and made an issue with it. I don't recall screaming, as in the woman was fearing for her life and guys came running to save the day. They might have thought they were doing right by intervening, but then they allegedly decided to apply some justice. Nothing awful, but nothing appropriate either.

But the screaming thing provides a particular context of instant wrong, instant danger, instant threat to a woman. Without that, there can still be a danger, but there isn't the sense of alarm. The truth of the matter is that even if the guy was a perp, they didn't have any legal right to harm him. Intervene in actions to protect the woman, yes, but not anything above that.