And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[Gospel]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

 

[Toni]

I stand corrected. The woman shouted and said No man needs to be here.

I absolutely agree that the 3 men acted much more aggressively than warranted. But as I said, at least part of them was acting on instinct. They were wrong to have behaved as they did. Absolutely. But I have no idea if they were reacting to what they thought were cries for help/male intruder or if they were transphobes.

Even the woman so startled could be trans phobic but it takes a few to calm down from a perceived threat. It would for anyone here posting if they were startled.

Imagine you go into a restroom and find a snake curled up in the toilet seat. Likely it will take you a few to calm down after you realize it’s just a rubber snake. Instinct.

 

[Politesse]

I stand corrected. The woman shouted and said No man needs to be here.

I absolutely agree that the 3 men acted much more aggressively than warranted. But as I said, at least part of them was acting on instinct. They were wrong to have behaved as they did. Absolutely. But I have no idea if they were reacting to what they thought were cries for help/male intruder or if they were transphobes.

Even the woman so startled could be trans phobic but it takes a few to calm down from a perceived threat. It would for anyone here posting if they were startled.

Imagine you go into a restroom and find a snake curled up in the toilet seat. Likely it will take you a few to calm down after you realize it’s just a rubber snake. Instinct.

More dehumanization. It just rolls off the tongue so easily, doesn't it? Comparing the people you're afraid of to dangerous animals?

Try "apes" next, always popular. Or "wolves".

 

[marc]

The flip side of this is also something we are seeing, cis women accused of being trans, and having the police called on them.

 

[Politesse]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

A "belligerent" woman in the men's bathroom is not in danger of being insulted. She's in danger of being assaulted and raped. And if she's a trans woman, so-called "feminists" will cluck sadly about how it was her own fault for being in there, and their should be "apologies from everyone concerned".

 

[Politesse]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

The men who jumped the trans man should not have resorted to violence but how were they to know that this was not a would be rapist? They would have been hailed as heroes of the trans man had turned out to be a pedophile looking fir kiddie victims.

I agree that there being three of them, they could have likely avoided violence. There were a lot of high emotions involved, fir all individuals: The woman who thought her privacy was being invaded, the trans man caught in a humiliating no sun situation and men who thought they were being heroes, coming to the rescue of a woman in distress.

Because face it: for the most part if a man is caught inside a woman’s bathroom, he’s assumed to be up to no good.

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

Oh, I agree. But they were reacting to a woman screaming in fear. They *thought* they were being heroes.

Screaming?

We're inventing new facts out of whole cloth, remember? Because the media is too biased to tell the truth?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I stand corrected. The woman shouted and said No man needs to be here.

I absolutely agree that the 3 men acted much more aggressively than warranted. But as I said, at least part of them was acting on instinct. They were wrong to have behaved as they did. Absolutely. But I have no idea if they were reacting to what they thought were cries for help/male intruder or if they were transphobes.

Even the woman so startled could be trans phobic but it takes a few to calm down from a perceived threat. It would for anyone here posting if they were startled.

Imagine you go into a restroom and find a snake curled up in the toilet seat. Likely it will take you a few to calm down after you realize it’s just a rubber snake. Instinct.

More dehumanization. It just rolls off the tongue so easily, doesn't it? Comparing the people you're afraid of to dangerous animals?

Try "apes" next, always popular. Or "wolves".

To Toni's point, we are dealing with situations of initially perceived context. Male in women's room. That isn't supposed to be a thing, so there is a reaction. From the very few pics I've seen, Noah looks like a Noah, not a Selena. Things just snowball from there in a cascading sets of PRESUMPTIONS, and not unreasonable one's either. But still presumptions, incorrect ones, which create more incorrect presumptions from onlookers.

And then we are left with a bunch of people who have no idea what is going on, making decisions on how to fix the wrong that doesn't exist, and intoxicated transgender that is in a position they shouldn't have to justify. However, with all the anti-LGBT shit out there, it makes the life of the actual LGBT's a bit harder, especially in situations like this. People don't need to be bigoted to be ignorant or misled.

 

[Gospel]

Generally, I gravitate towards overlooking minor hassles, rather than rallying the forces to confront an issue that might only disrupt a few fleeting moments of my day. I believe that the situation at hand could have been defused without escalating to the point it did. In the diverse melting pot that is America, such instances are not unheard of. People typically respond with a mild expression of displeasure, a comment or engage in a brief exchange, before ungracefully moving on with their lives.

 

[Politesse]

Puritan bullshit.

Oppressed people don't owe society perfect behavior in trade for their basic rights and safety. In fact, "following the rules" gets you shanked just as easily as breaking them, as this case aptly demonstrates. And then when a crime inevitably takes place, some new rule is invented post facto to justify beating you. We have to take action to protect ourselves, whether or not it makes the neighbors "feel comfortable" for us to do so.

Especially if that action isn't that wild in the first place. Just living a normal life - camping, drinking, going out with friends, going to the bathroom when we need to pee, going to school, working, working out - is not and should not be considered unreasonable to begin with. The list of things we're supposed to not do in order not to rile the straights just gets longer and longer the more you try to comply with it, and it often contradicts itself.

500 new pieces of legislation aimed at trans people this year alone, and you people really think the targets of that avalanche will be fine if they just shut up and take it "politely"?

 

[Gospel]

No idea who that reply was intended for.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Puritan bullshit.

Oppressed people don't owe society perfect behavior in trade for their basic rights and safety. In fact, "following the rules" gets you shanked just as easily as breaking them, as this case aptly demonstrates. And then when a crime inevitably takes place, some new rule is invented post facto to justify beating you. We have to take action to protect ourselves, whether or not it makes the neighbors "feel comfortable" for us to do so.

Especially if that action isn't that wild in the first place. Just living a normal life - camping, drinking, going out with friends, going to the bathroom when we need to pee, going to school, working, working out - is not and should not be considered unreasonable to begin with. The list of things we're supposed to not do in order not to rile the straights just gets longer and longer the more you try to comply with it, and it often contradicts itself.

You are completely and utterly mistaking the point that is being made. What happened wasn't right, few are suggesting it was. Others have noted the issue of filters caused by presumptions. Or this was a flat out bigoted reaction, we aren't certain. The press stopped reporting on it, and it seemed only Ruiz's family was interested in talking. Any violence against Ruiz was wrong and should have been illegal. The trouble is, the only stuff the police witnessed was Ruiz's reaction to the nonsense... and it wasn't particularly his best.

500 new pieces of legislation aimed at trans people this year alone, and you people really think the targets of that avalanche will be fine if they just shut up and take it "politely"?

Who said that?

 

[Gospel]

Sounds like a case of misdirected anger. I know because I do that a lot in real life.
I'm working on it though.

 

[TomC]

Sounds like a case of misdirected anger. I know because I do that a lot in real life.
I'm working on it though.

Misdirected anger is an unfortunately large component of the Human Situation.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Sounds like a case of misdirected anger. I know because I do that a lot in real life.
I'm working on it though.

Misdirected anger is an unfortunately large component of the Human Situation.
Tom

Does this mean you're making up with me? You've been very mean lately.

 

[Gospel]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

A "belligerent" woman in the men's bathroom is not in danger of being insulted. She's in danger of being assaulted and raped. And if she's a trans woman, so-called "feminists" will cluck sadly about how it was her own fault for being in there, and their should be "apologies from everyone concerned".

My statement was about the likelihood of men complaining about women being in the men's room. You seem to agree in a demented way because a rapist would indeed be happy to see a women in the men's room.

 

[TomC]

@Gospel

Might at least the staff lose the long nested quote posts thing?

TIA
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Honestly, I would rather use the ladies room anyway. I've gone through 4 children and have had to change diapers while out and about without the wife and the women's room was ALWAYS cleaner. Even when the ladies room was what I'd classify as filthy. I wouldn't wish the men's room on anybody.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Having cleaned both, I think it comes down to volume of users.

 

[TomC]

Having cleaned both, I think it comes down to volume of users.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right.
But I'm with Gospel, overall. I've never had to deal with babies like that. I'm no cleanfreak germophobe. But I'm really careful to avoid needing to do anything in a public restroom that involves sitting down.
Ew.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Puritan bullshit.

Oppressed people don't owe society perfect behavior in trade for their basic rights and safety. In fact, "following the rules" gets you shanked just as easily as breaking them, as this case aptly demonstrates. And then when a crime inevitably takes place, some new rule is invented post facto to justify beating you. We have to take action to protect ourselves, whether or not it makes the neighbors "feel comfortable" for us to do so.

Especially if that action isn't that wild in the first place. Just living a normal life - camping, drinking, going out with friends, going to the bathroom when we need to pee, going to school, working, working out - is not and should not be considered unreasonable to begin with. The list of things we're supposed to not do in order not to rile the straights just gets longer and longer the more you try to comply with it, and it often contradicts itself.

500 new pieces of legislation aimed at trans people this year alone, and you people really think the targets of that avalanche will be fine if they just shut up and take it "politely"?

I, for one, think that Ruiz owed no one anything, beyond the explanation for why he was in the women’s restroom. It is extremely regrettable—extremely wrong! that was where he was directed.

It is, unfortunately understandable as to why the woman initially objected. Most women probably would have although maybe not that many would have spoken out.

Unfortunately, women must always always always be on guard against predators. This includes trans women. And extends to all trans Indy usuals and everyone in the LGBTQ+ community.

In case it didn’t come across, I am heart sick at what happened here. Ruiz should have absolutely been able to safely go to the bathroom he felt most comfortable using.