And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[Toni]

That's not a "shout of alarm". She was just shouting at them.

You don’t think the dialogue as presented sounded like she was alarmed?

I don't think so. The trouble is we really only had the Ruiz family's take on the events.

Unless I missed something, the victim of the beating did not say anything like: The woman on the bathroom screamed for help and got me beat up.

That is something that is being invented whole cloth by men who were not even there and seem to think that women have no right to speak up in a situation that they find potentially threatening.

 

[Gospel]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

 

[TomC]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence.

It is also conceivable that she shrieked, he flipped her off, she shouted "There aren't supposed to be any men in here!" and then the escalating began.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Again, the specific details do not absolve the root cause of the issue.

 

[TomC]

Again, the specific details do not absolve the root cause of the issue.

Given the lack of information, I don't claim to know what the root cause is.

Ruiz may have started a fight with three guys and gotten his butt kicked. I wouldn't expect that to be obvious from his, and only his, account of events.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's not a "shout of alarm". She was just shouting at them.

You don’t think the dialogue as presented sounded like she was alarmed?

I don't think so. The trouble is we really only had the Ruiz family's take on the events.

Unless I missed something, the victim of the beating did not say anything like: The woman on the bathroom screamed for help and got me beat up.

That is something that is being invented whole cloth by men who were not even there and seem to think that women have no right to speak up in a situation that they find potentially threatening.

I'm not certain who is making what up.

I find the biggest problem here is that not enough people are taking both sides of the equation seriously. We have people who want to bully trans-people, we've got people who are only thinking of the rights of trans-people, people only thinking of the rights of non-trans, and people thinking of the issue way too legalistically. It is a hard enough problem to solve without the bullying, misogyny, or agendas.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

 

[Gospel]

Jesus Christ! How else can I put it? I'll give it a shot. Regardless of whether or not a thread is started on iidb.org, transgender people at rest rooms, locker rooms, sports may lead to another kerfuffle. The details may differ but the issue will be similar.

 

[TomC]

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there.

I don't remember even that much being made clear.
Apparently, Ruiz has been a regular at this campground since he was a little kid. He transitioned at 12, 8 years prior.

Maybe he started using the men's facilities back then, and was "advised" the year this happened that he had to use the women's facilities. Were I him, I'd be extremely annoyed about that.

The only personal reference I can think of would be "The state of Ohio decides that gay males must use the women's facilities to avoid discomfort for straight guys."
I'd be really shitty if that happened.

There just isn't enough context in this story to draw firm conclusions about much of anything.
Tom

 

[Toni]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It’s bad enough that women are being distilled into a single name—a perfectly good. name at that—but now she is somehow the personification of ‘white female privilege’ for objecting to a man in the women’s room.

Fuck that shit.

 

[Toni]

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there.

I don't remember even that much being made clear.
Apparently, Ruiz has been a regular at this campground since he was a little kid. He transitioned at 12, 8 years prior.

Maybe he started using the men's facilities back then, and was "advised" the year this happened that he had to use the women's facilities. Were I him, I'd be extremely annoyed about that.

The only personal reference I can think of would be "The state of Ohio decides that gay males must use the women's facilities to avoid discomfort for straight guys."
I'd be really shitty if that happened.

There just isn't enough context in this story to draw firm conclusions about much of anything.
Tom

Really? You’d be upset if everything were to be arranged to maximize the comfort level of straight guys?


Hahahahahaha.

That’s this entire thread, dude. Ruiz was directed to the women’s bathroom in an attempt to ensure his safety and comfort.*. Because apparently straight men cannot have their poor little masculine sensibilities threatened by a trans individual.

But women are bitches for expressing fear or surprise at finding a man in the women’s bathroom.

And we know this because non-straight, non-binary males are telling us so.

Women ain’t the problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It is a possibility, one of several I provided, and didn't actually choose which one had to be the case. But certainly, it is possible a woman felt entitled to lay down the law via needless meddling (just as it seems the Kevins did outside). Or a woman in general might have felt that the guy did not belong there because they thought the person was a guy. Or a woman might have initially thought he was a guy, then understood he was a woman (genital wise) and then her position on trans became the issue. Ruiz could have been upset having to defend their following the rules for the umpteenth time and made things harder.

Any number of hypotheticals here which all stem from different conflicts of the exact same situation. Which again, Ruiz did what they were told... and this happened. The worst types of problems to solve are usually the ones where neither side is wrong, and that generally gets harder when misogyny, bullying, bigotry, and ignorance get a play too.

 

[TomC]

That’s this entire thread, dude. Ruiz was directed to the women’s bathroom in an attempt to ensure his safety and comfort.*.

Ha ha ha!
I know.
Nobody really knows when or why he was "advised" to use the women's facilities.

Maybe he'd gotten drunk and disorderly often enough for the staff to just want him to leave and stay away. I don't know, nor do I claim to know.
Tom

 

[Toni]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It is a possibility, one of several I provided, and didn't actually choose which one had to be the case. But certainly, it is possible a woman felt entitled to lay down the law via needless meddling (just as it seems the Kevins did outside). Or a woman in general might have felt that the guy did not belong there because they thought the person was a guy. Or a woman might have initially thought he was a guy, then understood he was a woman (genital wise) and then her position on trans became the issue. Ruiz could have been upset having to defend their following the rules for the umpteenth time and made things harder.

Any number of hypotheticals here which all stem from different conflicts of the exact same situation. Which again, Ruiz did what they were told... and this happened. The worst types of problems to solve are usually the ones where neither side is wrong, and that generally gets harder when misogyny, bullying, bigotry, and ignorance get a play too.

Earth to Jimmy: It WAS a guy coming in. Or do you not believe that trans men are men?

And WTF calling anybody names that are supposed to indicate gender specific white privilege?????

Yeah, it is not much fun living under misogyny, bullying, bigotry and ignorance.

Wish you men folk would stop that shit like 2 thousand years ago but I’ll be happy with today. How about stopping that today.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It is a possibility, one of several I provided, and didn't actually choose which one had to be the case. But certainly, it is possible a woman felt entitled to lay down the law via needless meddling (just as it seems the Kevins did outside). Or a woman in general might have felt that the guy did not belong there because they thought the person was a guy. Or a woman might have initially thought he was a guy, then understood he was a woman (genital wise) and then her position on trans became the issue. Ruiz could have been upset having to defend their following the rules for the umpteenth time and made things harder.

Any number of hypotheticals here which all stem from different conflicts of the exact same situation. Which again, Ruiz did what they were told... and this happened. The worst types of problems to solve are usually the ones where neither side is wrong, and that generally gets harder when misogyny, bullying, bigotry, and ignorance get a play too.

Man accuses 9-year-old girl with short hair of being trans & leaves her sobbing - LGBTQ Nation

The old man told her and another girl with short hair that they're "obviously trans" and shouldn't compete.

www.lgbtqnation.com

 

[Gospel]

Toni said: Wish you men folk would stop that shit like 2 thousand years ago but I’ll be happy with today. How about stopping that today.

Deal. At least for me it's a deal.

 

[TomC]

It is certainly conceivable that the woman initially addressed Ruiz politely, and Ruiz's response might have been less than courteous, leading to the unfortunate escalation into violence. However, these specific details, while they may add context, do not absolve the root cause of the issue. An issue that will repeat itself at another time and place.

For this case, we don't know what the root cause was. Was the complaint coming from a woman, a Karen, could it have been diffused quickly, did someone escalate, was the woman's position on trans relevant?

What we do know is the person was told to go to that restroom at that camp site for a decade or so, and they belonged there. Everything else is based on the complications of that order and America's lack of maturity to deal with this subject.

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It is a possibility, one of several I provided, and didn't actually choose which one had to be the case. But certainly, it is possible a woman felt entitled to lay down the law via needless meddling (just as it seems the Kevins did outside). Or a woman in general might have felt that the guy did not belong there because they thought the person was a guy. Or a woman might have initially thought he was a guy, then understood he was a woman (genital wise) and then her position on trans became the issue. Ruiz could have been upset having to defend their following the rules for the umpteenth time and made things harder.

Any number of hypotheticals here which all stem from different conflicts of the exact same situation. Which again, Ruiz did what they were told... and this happened. The worst types of problems to solve are usually the ones where neither side is wrong, and that generally gets harder when misogyny, bullying, bigotry, and ignorance get a play too.

Man accuses 9-year-old girl with short hair of being trans & leaves her sobbing - LGBTQ Nation

The old man told her and another girl with short hair that they're "obviously trans" and shouldn't compete.

www.lgbtqnation.com

How is that relevant?
Tom

 

[TomC]

Toni said: Wish you men folk would stop that shit like 2 thousand years ago but I’ll be happy with today. How about stopping that today.

Deal. At least for me it's a deal.

There's the rub.
For you I'm sure it is.

But that doesn't mean women are any less likely to be victimized by a male predator. Because most of us guys weren't doing it in the first place.

Most guys aren't pervey and rapey. But most people who are so are guys.
Tom

 

[Toni]

That’s this entire thread, dude. Ruiz was directed to the women’s bathroom in an attempt to ensure his safety and comfort.*.

Ha ha ha!
I know.
Nobody really knows when or why he was "advised" to use the women's facilities.

Maybe he'd gotten drunk and disorderly often enough for the staff to just want him to leave and stay away. I don't know, nor do I claim to know.
Tom

Ohio AG on bathroom policies: Law does not protect ‘subjective preferences’ of transgender people

Yost entered his opinion last week as to whether a section of Ohio law prohibits the restriction of restrooms, changing rooms, or locker rooms to a single sex.

www.wkyc.com

Apparently in Ohio people can be directed to the bathrooms of their assigned at birth sex.

My take on the entire episode is that no one, except the men who beat up Ruiz intended to do anyone harm.

Guys, you’re just going to have to live with the FACT that after thousands of years of men telling women that they mean them no harm but women must accept ( insert sexist misogynistic condition here) for their own good, women are going to speak up and say Fuck that shit because frankly, my fears, men do not have any history of advocating for anything other than what benefits men.

 

[Gospel]

How is that relevant?
Tom

Hmm, let me see.

1. Person has been harassed or attacked in public because? Transgender
2. Incident has sparked outrage because? Transgender
3. Someone was accused of being what? Transgender

Yeah, it's an issue around Transgender so it seems relevant to me.