And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ruiz was attempting to do the right/ least troublesome thing.

I'm curious.
Have you any reason to believe that other than claims made by Ruiz and his mom?
Tom

He wasn't charged with lewd and indecent behavior, just what happened afterwards, so that is evidence that he was in the place he was told to be.

 

[TomC]

Nobody really knows when or why he was "advised" to use the women's facilities.

I thought it was made into law that he had to use the birth sex facility.

It was sorta implied. But that was before anyone on this forum realized that the event was a year ago.
Maybe so. Maybe not.

Another question in my mind is "Could the state enforce this in private facilities?" I wouldn't think so, but who knows.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Ruiz was attempting to do the right/ least troublesome thing.

I'm curious.
Have you any reason to believe that other than claims made by Ruiz and his mom?
Tom

He wasn't charged with lewd and indecent behavior, just what happened afterwards, so that is evidence that he was in the place he was told to be.

It's also evidence that the issue was "drunk and disorderly", trans had little or nothing to do with it.
Again, I'm not claiming to know what happened or why.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It’s bad enough that women are being distilled into a single name—a perfectly good. name at that—but now she is somehow the personification of ‘white female privilege’ for objecting to a man in the women’s room.

Fuck that shit.

Karens aren't about objecting, but how they object. The usage is obviously meaning someone who was unreasonable and continued to object after being informed that they were trans and doing what the law required.

There's an interesting pattern of behavior that can usually be seen and understood around the different reactions someone accused of being somewhere where someone thinks they don't belong will take.

They can run/wander away.

They can pretend they don't know what is happening.

They can press an assault.

Rarely does anyone who lacks a real right to be there stand their ground and continue to engage on their assertion.

Unless they are a danger, jackass, or sociopath.

All we know about the woman is that she objected to Ruiz's presence. Based on photos, Noah could easily be mistaken for the male as he identified as. What happens after that is very muddled.

The Karen could have just as easily asked "why are you in here?" In a level tone and then accepted the explanation in an equal tone. It's easy and straightforward, and the opportunity to scream is still there in case the person decides to "press".

Meanwhile Emily Lake's, Toni's, and AthenaAwakened's computers all just exploded and they aren't certain why. You are complaining about the woman's reaction, of which you still really don't know what it was to begin with. Dollars to donuts, if a "guy" is seen in a bathroom, probably the wrong place, that'd be worth double down odds. Telling women that they need to communicate better when they are panicking because they are perceiving a potential threat is and they should hold off on judgment in light of a less likely chance something completely harmless is happening is... well... patronizing.

Their reaction was clearly vigorous enough to get three additional individuals involved.

 

[Toni]

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It’s bad enough that women are being distilled into a single name—a perfectly good. name at that—but now she is somehow the personification of ‘white female privilege’ for objecting to a man in the women’s room.

Fuck that shit.

Karens aren't about objecting, but how they object. The usage is obviously meaning someone who was unreasonable and continued to object after being informed that they were trans and doing what the law required.

There's an interesting pattern of behavior that can usually be seen and understood around the different reactions someone accused of being somewhere where someone thinks they don't belong will take.

They can run/wander away.

They can pretend they don't know what is happening.

They can press an assault.

Rarely does anyone who lacks a real right to be there stand their ground and continue to engage on their assertion.

The only time anyone ever sticks around and says "leave me alone, I have a right to be here" is generally when they have the means to prove it, and the only time most people refuse to recognize their evidence is usually because they are looking for a fight.

The Karen could have just as easily asked "why are you in here?" In a level tone and then accepted the explanation in an equal tone. It's easy and straightforward, and the opportunity to scream is still there in case the person decides to "press".

Also, I might note, I think this whole situation proves a point I have been trying to make for some time: that people's "trans-dar" doesn't work nearly as well as they think it does, or else this whole incident wouldn't have happened.

Drop the Karen shit. It was obvious why she yelled and why she questioned Ruiz. It wasn’t Ruiz’ fault but it sure wasn’t hers, either.

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

 

[Toni]

That’s it: a woman objecting to an apparent t man in a women’s bathroom is now a KAREN???

It’s bad enough that women are being distilled into a single name—a perfectly good. name at that—but now she is somehow the personification of ‘white female privilege’ for objecting to a man in the women’s room.

Fuck that shit.

Karens aren't about objecting, but how they object. The usage is obviously meaning someone who was unreasonable and continued to object after being informed that they were trans and doing what the law required.

"Karen" in this case is about needless third-party meddling (but in order for it to be a "Karen" it needs to be needless) and we don't even know if that was even part of this to begin with.

Why we don't have a name for some white guy who goes up to a black family and bitches their music is too loud on 4th of July at the park (it wasn't... that'd been some other guy with his car stereo) as if he is the official noise ordinance cop, well, I think we know why.

For the record, I've never used the "Karen" label in real life, and rarely use it online.

As far as we know, the woman did NOT cry out for men to help her.

 

[TomC]

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

This is the point.
Us guys don't have to be concerned about predatory sexual misbehavior unless we're in prison or something. We don't have to be constantly vigilant concerning male strangers.

Women do. And have practically forever. It's just not the same for us guys.

Women have very rational reasons for getting upset when a guy breaks social boundaries like this.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We don't know if the men were there to help her.

 

[TomC]

We don't know if the men were there to help her.

We know virtually nothing except what a drunk guy thinks must have happened.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

This is the point.
Us guys don't have to be concerned about predatory sexual misbehavior unless we're in prison or something. We don't have to be constantly vigilant concerning male strangers.

Women do. And have practically forever. It's just not the same for us guys.

Women have very rational reasons for getting upset when a guy breaks social boundaries like this.
Tom

Actually this would be a woman "breaking" social boundaries.

 

[TomC]

Actually this would be a woman "breaking" social boundaries.

In what way?
How did she break any social boundaries?
Tom

 

[Toni]

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

This is the point.
Us guys don't have to be concerned about predatory sexual misbehavior unless we're in prison or something. We don't have to be constantly vigilant concerning male strangers.

Women do. And have practically forever. It's just not the same for us guys.

Women have very rational reasons for getting upset when a guy breaks social boundaries like this.
Tom

Actually this would be a woman "breaking" social boundaries.

You don’t consider Ruiz to be a man?

Or are you talking about the woman speaking up about the man in the woman’s bathroom?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Drop the Karen shit. It was obvious why she yelled and why she questioned Ruiz. It wasn’t Ruiz’ fault but it sure wasn’t hers, either.

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

Describing her as a Karen is reasonable--she should have dropped it when Ruiz indicated what the situation was. Not doing so is Karen behavior. (And I wish we had a different term.)

 

[TomC]

"They" is the completely correct term for third person and don't know the gender.

What does that have to do with an upset woman in the women's facilities?

Tom

 

[TomC]

Drop the Karen shit. It was obvious why she yelled and why she questioned Ruiz. It wasn’t Ruiz’ fault but it sure wasn’t hers, either.

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

Describing her as a Karen is reasonable--she should have dropped it when Ruiz indicated what the situation was. Not doing so is Karen behavior. (And I wish we had a different term.)

Bullshit.
You don't know what Ruiz did in there.
All you know about is his claims to be a victim, and that he was probably drunk at the time.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

This is the point.
Us guys don't have to be concerned about predatory sexual misbehavior unless we're in prison or something. We don't have to be constantly vigilant concerning male strangers.

Women do. And have practically forever. It's just not the same for us guys.

Women have very rational reasons for getting upset when a guy breaks social boundaries like this.
Tom

Actually this would be a woman "breaking" social boundaries.

You don’t consider Ruiz to be a man?

Or are you talking about the woman speaking up about the man in the woman’s bathroom?

I was responding in the context of TomC's post.

 

[Toni]

Drop the Karen shit. It was obvious why she yelled and why she questioned Ruiz. It wasn’t Ruiz’ fault but it sure wasn’t hers, either.

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

Describing her as a Karen is reasonable--she should have dropped it when Ruiz indicated what the situation was. Not doing so is Karen behavior. (And I wish we had a different term.)

No. You are expecting someone who has been at the very least startled and possibly very frightened to immediately make the rational evaluation that Ruiz was no threat.

In a perfect works, of course that is what would have happened. But people do not immediately go from a highly agitated state to one of calm acceptance because someone says they should.

Do you really think that rapists announce they are here to rape you? And that if a stranger in an intimate space says he’s cool that means he’s cool?

Obviously Ruiz was not a threat and was doing his best under the circumstances. I don’t doubt that the woman in question was also doing her best. You just don’t like it. You don’t like it when women do not instantly and without question confirm to whatever a man says they should accept and do. In this case, you are willing to call a woman a nasty name that indicates nothing but contempt… for being alarmed at a man in a woman’s bathroom.

You are the one being unreasonable here.

I am truly sorry that Ruiz was attacked. That should not have happened. And it was not the woman’s fault that it did happen. That blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the three men who attacked Ruiz. They probably thought they were doing a good thing but obviously, this was a horrible choice they made.

 

[Gospel]

(And I wish we had a different term.)

I think Loren would make a great replacement for Karen.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Actually this would be a woman "breaking" social boundaries.

In what way?
How did she break any social boundaries?
Tom

So either Ruiz is a woman identifying as a male in the women's bathroom or a woman who identifies as a man going to the bathroom in the men's bathroom. Neither of these is baseline. The irony of this case is that this is opposite with the locker room shower, where no one would have batted an eye.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Drop the Karen shit. It was obvious why she yelled and why she questioned Ruiz. It wasn’t Ruiz’ fault but it sure wasn’t hers, either.

Men earned every ounce of suspicion from women. Every single milligram.

Describing her as a Karen is reasonable--she should have dropped it when Ruiz indicated what the situation was. Not doing so is Karen behavior. (And I wish we had a different term.)

No. You are expecting someone who has been at the very least startled and possibly very frightened to immediately make the rational evaluation that Ruiz was no threat.

In a perfect works, of course that is what would have happened. But people do not immediately go from a highly agitated state to one of calm acceptance because someone says they should.

Indeed. The issue with judging her reaction at all is that we don't even know her reaction. There is no evidence provided indicating her actions were anything but justified for the situation she was perceiving.