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Split Conservatives Feel Attacked (was Special Counsel 2)

To notify a split thread.
Or perhaps you are unable to consider that there exists a possibility of finding some common ground.

Y’all seem to want civil war because somehow you cannot understand that understanding someone has a different perspective than yours is not the same thing as agreeing with them. Real mature.
We are not the ones that want the civil war. Rather, we recognize that a lot of people on the right do want a war and when you have a belligerent neighbor you should be thinking about your defenses.
It takes two, Loren.

What I am seeing is people perfectly willing to go to war—or rather, to send my sons into war while they sit nice and safe in their homes, secure in their superiority because that sense of righteous superiority is more important to them than what is actually right.

The only reason for war is if one cannot avoid it because the other side starts it.
Yup--and we see the QOP trying to seize power against the wishes of the people. 1/6 was just the most obvious manifestation of it. The right has already started a low level civil war.

Here, people seem happy to say the other dude started it without considering whether:
1. It is entirely true that the other side started it, apparently by saying mean things
No, it's not about mean things, it's about actual violence.

2. Can it be avoided by actually attempting to see the other person’s side ( and no, I am NOT taking about accepting racism or christofascism or bigotry based on sexual orientation or misogyny—those are non-negotiable and besides, they really ARE side issues which are also hot button issues (Ma—they stole my Pokémon cards!!—20 years ago but still). We need to look for common ground. Basically, people want the same exact things
Except we don't. The liberals want you to have the freedom to make your own choices. The conservatives want you to have the "freedom" to make the "choices" they approve of and nothing else.

3. Who benefits from all this drummed up hostility and conflict? Not you. Not me. Not the US or the world at large. Maybe political parties and operatives within those parties. Maybe a handful of billionaires. And maybe our enemies. It ain’t you and me.
That I will agree with.
 
Or perhaps you are unable to consider that there exists a possibility of finding some common ground.

Y’all seem to want civil war because somehow you cannot understand that understanding someone has a different perspective than yours is not the same thing as agreeing with them. Real mature.
We are not the ones that want the civil war. Rather, we recognize that a lot of people on the right do want a war and when you have a belligerent neighbor you should be thinking about your defenses.
It takes two, Loren.

What I am seeing is people perfectly willing to go to war—or rather, to send my sons into war while they sit nice and safe in their homes, secure in their superiority because that sense of righteous superiority is more important to them than what is actually right.

The only reason for war is if one cannot avoid it because the other side starts it.
Yup--and we see the QOP trying to seize power against the wishes of the people. 1/6 was just the most obvious manifestation of it. The right has already started a low level civil war.

Here, people seem happy to say the other dude started it without considering whether:
1. It is entirely true that the other side started it, apparently by saying mean things
No, it's not about mean things, it's about actual violence.

2. Can it be avoided by actually attempting to see the other person’s side ( and no, I am NOT taking about accepting racism or christofascism or bigotry based on sexual orientation or misogyny—those are non-negotiable and besides, they really ARE side issues which are also hot button issues (Ma—they stole my Pokémon cards!!—20 years ago but still). We need to look for common ground. Basically, people want the same exact things
Except we don't. The liberals want you to have the freedom to make your own choices. The conservatives want you to have the "freedom" to make the "choices" they approve of and nothing else.

3. Who benefits from all this drummed up hostility and conflict? Not you. Not me. Not the US or the world at large. Maybe political parties and operatives within those parties. Maybe a handful of billionaires. And maybe our enemies. It ain’t you and me.
That I will agree with.
Loren, I know liberals think they want people to be able to make their own decisions, but that’s only true when they agree with the decisions being made.

In some places, so called blue laws meant that a lot of businesses could only operate on Sundays starting at noon so as not to interfere with church services. Some businesses simply were closed on Sundays. . A lot of people protested those laws. But when such laws were repealed, a lot of people protested because that eliminated the one day they could count on as ‘family time.’ In the name of freedom from unwarranted religious control, people lost time they could count in to spend time as families as more people had to work on Sundays.
 
Japan can use mostly light rail because it's so dense. The dominant form of transit heavily depends on population density, what works well at one density can work very badly at another. (Imagine bush planes in Tokyo or subways in the Alaska bush for some extremes.)
Japan uses light rail because they didn't socialize their transportation system. It's vastly more efficient. But it isn't as profitable for auto makers and oil companies and such.
Ya know, the real government.

There are "interstate highways" in Japan, but they aren't subsidized by tax payers, who may not even use them. Everyone has another option.

Urban folks being forced to subsidize the wishes of rural folks and big corporations, whether they want to or not, is what I'm talking about here.
Toni's relatives got a ton of money when the government built their "freeway". Urban folks displaced by the "freeway" system get little or nothing.

But somehow, she seems to think that rural folks are the victims of urbanites who "just don't understand".
Tom
 
View attachment 43500


The Fox News Channel chyron appeared beneath split-screen video boxes that showed Trump addressing supporters live in New Jersey, and Biden speaking at the White House earlier in the day.

The message read, “Wannabe dictator speaks at the White House after having his political rival arrested.”

Fox said in a statement Wednesday that “the chyron was taken down immediately and was addressed.” The website Mediaite reported that the message was onscreen for 27 seconds. It was also not removed when the telecast was rerun late at night.

Fox did not explain how the message made it onto the screen and how the matter was addressed.
The guy who posted this at FoxNews was fired. So even the Propaganda channel is embarrassed by it
 
The guy who posted this at FoxNews was fired. So even the Propaganda channel is embarrassed by it
What does "fired" mean, in this context?

Got a better position on Twitter? With serious cred?
Tom
 

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.
yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.
 

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.
yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.
Exactly. Palin came to power by politicizing abortion in a local mayoral race. The Virginia Governor would get to power because of CRT, while the Florida Governor was protecting the people from socialists. Rural Ohio has signs in yards against windmills, and not because of bilby's arguments.

And a lot of Americzns died because they politicized a pandemic emergency.
 

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.
yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.
I think a lot of it is the voices that get amplified by media.

But honestly I wasn’t talking about listening to and respecting or agreeing with formulated political opinion, per se. I was really just talking about looking fir common, shared values,

I don’t know much about the political climate in your country, or how much there is a n urban/rural divide. In the US, at least, it seems as though differences are amplified and I think this is deliberate.

In the US, I think that most people agree on the ideals of personal freedom ( within certain limits), hard work, love of country, honesty, integrity, love of country, equal rights for all.

We just don’t necessarily agree on how to achieve these ideals. In the past, I think there was a much greater acceptance of the fact that we shared those values, even where we disagreed with the particulars. Now, there’s very much more of an us vs them. -!: politics seem bent on wedge politics. I think this is deliberate—it’s attention —and dollar grabbing, for one thing. I suspect that there’s more to it than that. One example would be Trump’s tenure as POTUS: He would often do something fairly outrageous that would grab a lot of attention and headlines but behind the scenes, quietly, serious stuff was going on. I’m thinking about the USPS as an obvious example but so are student loans abd destruction of the educational system, largely but not entirely through the distrust of our educational system. Same thing with our court system, the USSC being simply the most prominent. Not enough people have been paying attention to how the federal court system was packed with political Allie’s of Trump. I think there is a deliberate undermining of American trust in our institutions and it did not start with Trump. For some time now, instead of talking about flaws in our educational system, we hear how it is ‘broken,’ for example. What do we do with broken things? We throw them out.
 

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.
yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.
Exactly. Palin came to power by politicizing abortion in a local mayoral race. The Virginia Governor would get to power because of CRT, while the Florida Governor was protecting the people from socialists. Rural Ohio has signs in yards against windmills, and not because of bilby's arguments.

And a lot of Americzns died because they politicized a pandemic emergency.
And this happened world wide, as well.
 
Orange and his followers seem more interested in "winning" than in governing. Their politics is more sport than civic substance.
 

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.
yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.
Exactly. Palin came to power by politicizing abortion in a local mayoral race. The Virginia Governor would get to power because of CRT, while the Florida Governor was protecting the people from socialists. Rural Ohio has signs in yards against windmills, and not because of bilby's arguments.

And a lot of Americzns died because they politicized a pandemic emergency.
And this happened world wide, as well.
Yes, within mostly the same alt-right hyper-partisan madness. Brazil, England, US, India... nations with leaders that got to where they were via anger, resentment, and hate.
 
So: rural and small town people are stupid.
Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
I AM “small town people”.
There are stupid people in cities as well.
Even the “smart” people in cities are stupid/ignorant about diagnosing and treating colic in a horse. Thing is, that doesn’t particularly effect the rest of us, whereas the stupidity/ignorance of the rural Trumpsucker is dangerous to every one of us. Your equivocation is falling flat.

I am eager to seek common ground with conservatives. Trumpsuckers whose pride and identity are inextricably bound to a career criminal rapist mobster traitor? Not so much. Such folks are in too deep to EVER let go of their neurotic fixation.
Yeah - I am writing them off, for the time being.
 
So: rural and small town people are stupid.
Don’t put words in my mouth, please.
I AM “small town people”.
So that is a yes then? :D
There are stupid people in cities as well.
Even the “smart” people in cities are stupid/ignorant about diagnosing and treating colic in a horse. Thing is, that doesn’t particularly effect the rest of us, whereas the stupidity/ignorance of the rural Trumpsucker is dangerous to every one of us. Your equivocation is falling flat.
It is worth noting many of those who rooted on January 6th weren't the hard affected people from job losses, but middle to upper class management/owners.
 
So that is a yes then? :D
:rimshot:
many of those who rooted on January 6th weren't the hard affected people from job losses, but middle to upper class management/owners.
Those are the ones who are most likely salvageable in the short term; they have actual lives, and their identity is not 100% bound to Agent Orange.
 
So: rural and small town people are stupid.

Got it.

How is it working out for you when you ridicule and look down on people with whom you disagree? Changed any hearts and minds yet?

This, btw, is how we all lose.
The reality is the smart ones tend to leave for greater opportunity in the cities. It's nothing like 100% but it's enough to make a marked difference in the societies even though it doesn't apply to everyone. All populations that have suffered heavy emigration show this pattern.
I can’t decide whether that’s a more ignorant or more elitist attitude so I’ll just go with clueless.
Feel free to provide a clue. I am a fast learner, or so I’m told. Perhaps you prefer to keep your enlightenment for yourself?
Seriously Toni, you seem to be impersonating those you are criticizing. Lofty pronouncements are meager fare.
 

Honestly, if you want a complacent, content enough population, make sure they have access to good jobs, affordable housing abd health care and day care and good educational opportunities for their families. And roads in decent shape, clean air and water. In other words, security, with hope for the future.
yes, and both rural people and urban people should want this and they should be United in their desire to have political candidates who address these things. And yet it seems that the majority of Republicans are not thinking this way.

I’m quite happy to consider the reasoned political opinions of those whose values may differ from mine but I almost never hear that from the right. Perhaps that is media bias at play, and the voices of those who are reasonable are getting drowned out.
I think a lot of it is the voices that get amplified by media.

But honestly I wasn’t talking about listening to and respecting or agreeing with formulated political opinion, per se. I was really just talking about looking fir common, shared values,
I’d be happy to look for common, shared values because I agree with you that we all likely have a lot of them. However, how can I take seriously people who elect Marjorie Taylor Greene and her ilk into power? If you want to ding common ground with me you will have to use your brain in a logical, intellectual manner. I do feel sorry for those who have been poisoned by corrupt media like Fox News. They’ve been swindled and I hope that some day they can get over that but at some point you have to take responsibility for your own political views. And it’s not just a vocal minority. Many, many Republicans think the 2020 election was rigged, not just the crazy ones.
 
I think a lot of it is the voices that get amplified by media.

But honestly I wasn’t talking about listening to and respecting or agreeing with formulated political opinion, per se. I was really just talking about looking fir common, shared values,
I’d be happy to look for common, shared values because I agree with you that we all likely have a lot of them. However, how can I take seriously people who elect Marjorie Taylor Greene and her ilk into power? If you want to ding common ground with me you will have to use your brain in a logical, intellectual manner. I do feel sorry for those who have been poisoned by corrupt media like Fox News. They’ve been swindled and I hope that some day they can get over that but at some point you have to take responsibility for your own political views. And it’s not just a vocal minority. Many, many Republicans think the 2020 election was rigged, not just the crazy ones.
link

article said:
The CNN poll, conducted March 8-12 (2023) among 1,045 Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents, found 63% of respondents believe Biden did not legitimately win the 2020 election, while 37% believe he did.
Keep in mind that this is a decrease at it is still above a super-majority! Over 3 in 5 Republicans believe Biden stole the election. To make matters even worse is this part of it:
article said:
Of that 63%, only 52% say they think there’s “solid evidence” the election was stolen, while 48% say they’re going based on “suspicion only.”
What the fuck are we supposed to do with these people? About half of those that think the 2020 was illegitimate... don't think there is any evidence to demonstrate that is true. They are pragmatic to admit there is no evidence, but apparently hyper-partisan enough to toss caution to the wind and just presume illegitimacy based on a hunch.

One of the things I noted with Trump was he normalized lies. The above seems to make it even worse as he has normalized fantasy and political fan fiction. It became merely enough to assert something to believe it, as if they are Bastian Balthazar Bux.
 
Right. He was behind Biden in every national poll all through election season 2020, from between 5 to 10 percent. He (as far as I remember) never led Biden in any poll. He knew his situation -- his pollsters couldn't have told him he was ahead; even Trump would know that was bullshit. So he followed his usual instincts for preemptive lying, and (if I recall correctly) started saying that can he could only lose if the other side cheated -- in April 2020. Evidence-free, obviously. So anyone who believes he won in a landslide, which is how he has described it, must believe that you can trail in every national poll for 10 months and then win an overnight slamdunk victory. I have born again cousins who believe this. But then again.
 
A good example of what I’m talking about is when Republicans were polled on the individual contents of the Affordable Care Act they were largely supportive of it. However, they were vehemently against Obamacare.

So common ground is there, it is just politically unattainable. And it can’t be the sole responsibility of one side to seek or
Concede their values to attain that common ground.

Did Republican lawmakers ever have a good faith alternative to Obamacare? No.

If you choose not to think rationally don’t expect to find rational solutions. If you want me to take you seriously start taking yourself seriously.
 
Someone must have darted Bill Barr with truth serum. Perhaps he is proof enough of Elixir's claim that some former Trumpsuckers are salvageable. I watched a video and he calls Orange a nine-year-old that keeps pushing the glass closer and closer to the edge because he's just that immature. I had to pinch myself listening to it to make sure I wasn't dreaming.
 
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