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Breakdown In Civil Order

A Bay Area Target has shuttered indefinitely after a suspected arsonist set the store's paper towel aisle ablaze, causing an estimated $1 million in damage. Multiple people called 911 just before 3 pm Saturday to report that a fire had broken out inside the Target on Admiral Callaghan Lane in Vallejo. Witnesses spotted an unidentified person igniting rolls of paper towels before the fire spread through the paper products section. Vallejo Fire spokesperson Kevin Brown said the blaze is projected to have caused around $1 million in damage to the store's roof, interior and inventory.

Daily Mail

Probably a "homeless" person set the fire.

Newsom 2024!!
Funny story, Newsom was actually in line at a Target Store recently when a thief just walked out the door with some unpaid for stuff. No store employee tried to stop him.
Because whatever is being stolen isn't worth that employee's life. We were told in the 1990s not to intervene!
Newsom piped up, "Why isn't anyone going after him?", and the clerk blamed it on the governor, not realizing it was him at first. :D He proceeded to give her a lecture about how its not his fault, California is super awesome, blah, blah, blah. He had no idea that stores were not pursuing the thieves "organized groups of folks". He is so out of touch.
Reminds me of HW and the scanners at a grocery store.

Yes, "shrink" has gone up. But you'd swear from The Daily Mail, that no one pays for anything anymore.
 
I skimmed this thread just now, and will offer that "homelessness" is driven not only by poverty, but by mental illness, drug addiction and by emotional stress.

Do other developed countries experience poverty, mental illness and emotional stress at levels comparable to the U.S.A.?
Captain Obvious has entered the chat.
:ROFLMAO:

Good night everyone!
 
A Bay Area Target has shuttered indefinitely after a suspected arsonist set the store's paper towel aisle ablaze, causing an estimated $1 million in damage. Multiple people called 911 just before 3 pm Saturday to report that a fire had broken out inside the Target on Admiral Callaghan Lane in Vallejo. Witnesses spotted an unidentified person igniting rolls of paper towels before the fire spread through the paper products section. Vallejo Fire spokesperson Kevin Brown said the blaze is projected to have caused around $1 million in damage to the store's roof, interior and inventory.

Daily Mail

Probably a "homeless" person set the fire.

Newsom 2024!!
Funny story, Newsom was actually in line at a Target Store recently when a thief just walked out the door with some unpaid for stuff. No store employee tried to stop him.
Because whatever is being stolen isn't worth that employee's life. We were told in the 1990s not to intervene!
Newsom piped up, "Why isn't anyone going after him?", and the clerk blamed it on the governor, not realizing it was him at first. :D He proceeded to give her a lecture about how its not his fault, California is super awesome, blah, blah, blah. He had no idea that stores were not pursuing the thieves "organized groups of folks". He is so out of touch.
Reminds me of HW and the scanners at a grocery store.

Yes, "shrink" has gone up. But you'd swear from The Daily Mail, that no one pays for anything anymore.
Yes, I was not implying the employee should have intervened. I was simply stating the facts. Its not worth a person's life. A Home Depot employee in the Bay Area was killed a few months ago trying to stop a theft. The thing is, Newsom did not know this and asked why no one is chasing this guy! That's why I was saying he was out of touch.

Also, the HW scanner hulabaloo was sort of fake news:

AP Was There: Bush’s bum rap on ‘amazing’ barcode scanner

WASHINGTON (AP) — One last time, for the record: It was not an ordinary supermarket scanner.

A February 1992 newspaper story reporting that President George H.W. Bush was baffled by a supermarket barcode scanner when he visited a grocers’ convention in Florida fed into impressions that the president was out of touch, just as he was dealing with a reeling economy and fending off a primary election challenge at the outset of his re-election campaign.

The New York Times’ front-page account carried the headline: “Bush Encounters the Supermarket, Amazed.”

But although Bush had remarked that some of the machine’s features seemed “amazing,” it hardly looked like his first time in a supermarket checkout line. Mostly, Bush seemed to be politely listening to National Cash Register executives making their pitch.

Reporters later learned that it was a special scanner with advanced features, including a scale to weigh produce — uncommon then — and the ability to read barcodes even if they were torn up and jumbled.
 
A Bay Area Target has shuttered indefinitely after a suspected arsonist set the store's paper towel aisle ablaze, causing an estimated $1 million in damage. Multiple people called 911 just before 3 pm Saturday to report that a fire had broken out inside the Target on Admiral Callaghan Lane in Vallejo. Witnesses spotted an unidentified person igniting rolls of paper towels before the fire spread through the paper products section. Vallejo Fire spokesperson Kevin Brown said the blaze is projected to have caused around $1 million in damage to the store's roof, interior and inventory.

Daily Mail

Probably a "homeless" person set the fire.

Newsom 2024!!
What is a "homeless" person, and why do you assume that?

"Homeless" (aka "unhoused") is not an assumption. It is an educated guess. I may be wrong that it wasn't a "homeless" person but a disgruntled shopper who is upset with the cost of toilet paper and started the fire as a political protest against Brandon's ruinous economic policies.
It's all these assumptions that makes people ask the question, "Why do you assume that?"

It might have been a female Trump supporting immigrant from Gaza.
Tom
 
From a few years back:

The New York Times fabricates a nonexistent shoplifting wave in San Francisco, then wrongly blames it on criminal justice reforms and the city’s supposed soft-on-crime image

When retail theft was actually at a decade long low, despite the reporting on retail theft being more or less identical in claims and tone. It's almost as though the goal here is to sell ad space by generating angry clicks, rather than to solve shoplifting as such...

Meanwhile in Sacramento, Newsom - yes, that Newsom - is pushing some major legal reforms aimed at addressing organized retail rings, which is of course the reason why he shared the Target story in the first place:

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/01/09/property-crime-framework/

Newsom is pushing major legal reforms to address a non existent problem.
 
There's a reason we are discussing the Newsom thing so obliquely, by the way; our conservative buddies are lying about most of the details, and know that sharing an actual link would give the game away:


If you read the original story, it's clear that of everyone in the Target that day, Newsom was easily the one individual most informed about California property law, and in a bit of a froth about it. He wasn't pissed at the cashier because he'd never heard of shoplifting before, but because the checker told him something entirely untrue about it (then asked for a selfie).
 
Meanwhile in Sacramento, Newsom - yes, that Newsom - is pushing some major legal reforms aimed at addressing organized retail rings, which is of course the reason why he shared the Target story in the first place:

Newsom is pushing major legal reforms to address a non existent problem.
Shoplifting is a non-existent problem? Well, I guess we can just close the thread then.
 
Meanwhile in Sacramento, Newsom - yes, that Newsom - is pushing some major legal reforms aimed at addressing organized retail rings, which is of course the reason why he shared the Target story in the first place:

Newsom is pushing major legal reforms to address a non existent problem.
Shoplifting is a non-existent problem? Well, I guess we can just close the thread then.

According to you, shoplifting is at a ten year low. Why would Newsom be pushing for major reforms?
 
According to you, shoplifting is at a ten year low. Why would Newsom be pushing for major reforms?
No.
According to him, "A few years back..."
Then
When retail theft was actually at a decade long low, despite the reporting on retail theft being more or less identical in claims and tone. It's almost as though the goal here is to sell ad space by generating angry clicks, rather than to solve shoplifting as such...
Feel free to actually read what is posted.

Even if it isn't what The Daily Mail is saying today.
Tom
 
I skimmed this thread just now, and will offer that "homelessness" is driven not only by poverty, but by mental illness, drug addiction and by emotional stress.

Do other developed countries experience poverty, mental illness and emotional stress at levels comparable to the U.S.A.?
Yes they do.


New Zealand, United Kingdom, France, Australia, Luxembourg, Sweden, and Germany all have higher rates of homelessness than the US does.
 
The struggling Macy's company has announced the imminent closure of 150 of its stores, roughly one third of its remining 500 locations. This was in response to a fourth quarterly earning report that showed a continued severe loss to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. This isn't the first time Macy's has closed the same number of stores, around the same quantity were shuttered in 2018, along with the termination of several thousand employees, around 3% of their workforce. The 150 stores on the chopping block collectively account for less than 10% of the company's revenue. They plan to reinvest the money in, among other things, "more mannequins" (I'm not kidding). As well as boosting staff in more personalized departments like shoes and cosmetics. Also opening some new locations for Bloomingdale's one of their most solvent surviving brands. In short, Macy's is responding to the death of the entire concept of the department store in the American imagination, by doubling down on the key elements of the department store model. It will spell their doom. Expect a notice of either sale, bankruptcy, or both within five years. Indeed, the vultures of acquisition are already quite openly circling.

This is of course being widely reported as "Macy's closes Union Square location in San Francisco!!!" with the implication that it is just another victim of the doom loop and the failure of progressive policies to control drugs and homelessness. So I thought I'd get ahead of the curve and point out the real reason for the closure. It is certainly, in one sense, the breakdown of a certain specific sense of civil order, one that was predicated on the idea of a vast middle class whose female half both had vast amounts of time to spend hanging out at the Macy's or Ward's or Penney's (not being on the workforce themselves) and who would preferentially choose to do so over shopping online for the same products. That version of the civil order no longer exists, and the extinction of Ward's and ongoing slow collapse of Penney's and Macy's are evidence of the massive shift that cities around the world face as they are forced to decide how to reallocate space in their changing downtown areas and/or increasingly defunct and infrastructurally expensive suburban malls. It is not evidence that failing to arrest homeless people without charge and steal their possessions causes business failures. There is nothing the SFPD or the governor of California could have done to balance Macy's books for them, and frankly deciding social policy solely to recover the revenue stream of a failing company would be as anti-capitalistic as it would be antisocial. Americans are spending more on consumer goods than they ever have, they just aren't spending those dollars at big city block department stores anymore, and neither Macy's nor the national guard could possibly change that fiscal reality.
 
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A Bay Area Target has shuttered indefinitely after a suspected arsonist set the store's paper towel aisle ablaze, causing an estimated $1 million in damage. Multiple people called 911 just before 3 pm Saturday to report that a fire had broken out inside the Target on Admiral Callaghan Lane in Vallejo. Witnesses spotted an unidentified person igniting rolls of paper towels before the fire spread through the paper products section. Vallejo Fire spokesperson Kevin Brown said the blaze is projected to have caused around $1 million in damage to the store's roof, interior and inventory.

Daily Mail

Probably a "homeless" person set the fire.

Newsom 2024!!
What is a "homeless" person, and why do you assume that?

"Homeless" (aka "unhoused") is not an assumption. It is an educated guess. I may be wrong that it wasn't a "homeless" person but a disgruntled shopper who is upset with the cost of toilet paper and started the fire as a political protest against Brandon's ruinous economic policies.
It's all these assumptions that makes people ask the question, "Why do you assume that?"

It might have been a female Trump supporting immigrant from Gaza.
Tom
Or some climate change denying reader of the Daily Fail.
 
The struggling Macy's company has announced the imminent closure of 150 of its stores, roughly one third of its remining 500 locations. This was in response to a fourth quarterly earning report that showed a continued severe loss to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. This isn't the first time Macy's has closed the same number of stores, around the same quantity were shuttered in 2018, along with the termination of several thousand employees, around 3% of their workforce. The 150 stores on the chopping block collectively account for less than 10% of the company's revenue. They plan to reinvest the money in, among other things, "more mannequins" (I'm not kidding). As well as boosting staff in more personalized departments like shoes and cosmetics. Also opening some new locations for Bloomingdale's one of their most solvent surviving brands. In short, Macy's is responding to the death of the entire concept of the department store in the American imagination, by doubling down on the key elements of the department store model. It will spell their doom. Expect a notice of either sale, bankruptcy, or both within five years. Indeed, the vultures of acquisition are already quite openly circling.

This is of course being widely reported as "Macy's closes Union Square location in San Francisco!!!" with the implication that it is just another victim of the doom loop and the failure of progressive policies to control drugs and homelessness. So I thought I'd get ahead of the curve and point out the real reason for the closure. It is certainly, in one sense, the breakdown of a certain specific sense of civil order, one that was predicated on the idea of a vast middle class whose female half both had vast amounts of time to spend hanging out at the Macy's or Ward's or Penney's (not being on the workforce themselves) and who would preferentially choose to do so over shopping online for the same products. That version of the civil order no longer exists, and the extinction of Ward's and ongoing slow collapse of Penney's and Macy's are evidence of the massive shift that cities around the world face as they are forced to decide how to reallocate space in their changing downtown areas and/or increasingly defunct and infrastructurally expensive suburban malls. It is not evidence that failing to arrest homeless people without charge and steal their possessions causes business failures. There is nothing the SFPD or the governor of California could have done to balance Macy's books for them, and frankly deciding social policy solely to recover the revenue stream of a failing company would be as anti-capitalistic as it would be antisocial. Americans are spending more on consumer goods than they ever have, they just aren't spending those dollars at big city block department stores anymore, and neither Macy's nor the national guard could possibly change that fiscal reality.
I wonder if the Macy's closest to me will be among the stores closed.

I used to enjoy going shopping, even when I had no or not much money to spend. That was when I was young and thin---and lived in a larger metropolitan area where stores were well stocked.

Moving here: nearest actual shopping mall is 30 miles away in one direction and about 45 in a different direction. Money was tight for years after moving here, so very little shopping, except as necessary, as it was with 4 growing kids. Then I took a demanding job that required a long commute, conveniently near where the better of those two malls was---and was so tired at the end of work, I very rarely stopped to go shopping. Gradually much of my shopping became online, which was not nearly as satisfying and probably much more expensive. Then I retired and the pandemic hit: no shopping. A week or so ago, hubby and I actually went to the mall, something neither of us can remember what year it was when either of us actually went, much less went together. I went to Macys, which had replaced the major department store before it was Macys which in turn replaced the regional department store that existed years ago when we moved to the area. It took me some time but I became rather fond of it and still miss some of the brands and inventory it carried. Anyway, I was specifically looking for particular items when I remembered one of the reasons I stopped visiting that store: It always appears that the store is mostly stocked with leftovers from other stores. Spotty inventory, nothing that looked particularly wonderful among the items I was looking for---and trust me, I was primed to part with some serious cash. Interesting enough, the mall itself was full of people, many of whom were carrying bags of stuff they purchased.

Talking to the younger generation, they tend to either shop online or go to boutique types of stores. I get it. At the boutique kinds of stores, you usually know you have decent quality and you aren't wandering through multiple departments to get to what it is you want to look at. Sales staff are helpful but not intrusive. Department stores used to be like that. Not any more.
 
The struggling Macy's company has announced the imminent closure of 150 of its stores, roughly one third of its remining 500 locations. This was in response to a fourth quarterly earning report that showed a continued severe loss to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. This isn't the first time Macy's has closed the same number of stores, around the same quantity were shuttered in 2018, along with the termination of several thousand employees, around 3% of their workforce. The 150 stores on the chopping block collectively account for less than 10% of the company's revenue. They plan to reinvest the money in, among other things, "more mannequins" (I'm not kidding). As well as boosting staff in more personalized departments like shoes and cosmetics. Also opening some new locations for Bloomingdale's one of their most solvent surviving brands. In short, Macy's is responding to the death of the entire concept of the department store in the American imagination, by doubling down on the key elements of the department store model. It will spell their doom. Expect a notice of either sale, bankruptcy, or both within five years. Indeed, the vultures of acquisition are already quite openly circling.

This is of course being widely reported as "Macy's closes Union Square location in San Francisco!!!" with the implication that it is just another victim of the doom loop and the failure of progressive policies to control drugs and homelessness. So I thought I'd get ahead of the curve and point out the real reason for the closure. It is certainly, in one sense, the breakdown of a certain specific sense of civil order, one that was predicated on the idea of a vast middle class whose female half both had vast amounts of time to spend hanging out at the Macy's or Ward's or Penney's (not being on the workforce themselves) and who would preferentially choose to do so over shopping online for the same products. That version of the civil order no longer exists, and the extinction of Ward's and ongoing slow collapse of Penney's and Macy's are evidence of the massive shift that cities around the world face as they are forced to decide how to reallocate space in their changing downtown areas and/or increasingly defunct and infrastructurally expensive suburban malls. It is not evidence that failing to arrest homeless people without charge and steal their possessions causes business failures. There is nothing the SFPD or the governor of California could have done to balance Macy's books for them, and frankly deciding social policy solely to recover the revenue stream of a failing company would be as anti-capitalistic as it would be antisocial. Americans are spending more on consumer goods than they ever have, they just aren't spending those dollars at big city block department stores anymore, and neither Macy's nor the national guard could possibly change that fiscal reality.

Can you point to a specific mainstream news source that is implying that it has to do with the drug and homlessness problem in the city? I glanced through the headlines and content of several news stories, and they pretty much all point to it being a failed, antiquated business model unable to compete with online and other retailers, but there was some suggestion that slower shopper traffic in SF over the years was also a factor. And the slower shopper traffic in the city as a whole IS related to crime, drugs and homeless problems. Nothing controversial there.
 
the slower shopper traffic in the city as a whole IS related to crime, drugs and homeless problems. Nothing controversial there.
That seems doubtful to me. We see the same thing here in Brisbane, and it's got nothing to do with crime, or drugs, or homeless problems, and everything to do with department stores being a thing of the past.

The Myer Centre, which is the core of Brisbane's CBD shopping area, and was the largest CBD mall in Australia when first built, had to change their name to Uptown, after Coles Myer decided to close the Myer department store there that had been the anchor tenant since the construction of the place in 1988.

For at least a decade now, department stores have been used by shoppers as a kind of free showroom for online retailers. The main reason people still go there is to inspect the make and model of appliances or homewares, or the specific brand of clothing, cosmetic, perfume, etc., that they then buy online.

Being a showroom for your competitors, who have none of the overheads or inventory or stock losses that are inherent in bricks-and-mortar stores, and who can therefore easily undercut your prices, is not a sound business model.

Nobody needs to be a criminal, a drug user, or a homeless person for this to be the case. Nobody resiles from going into Brisbane because of any of these three things, and yet our department stores are rapidly disappearing, and our CBD shopper traffic is sharply lower in recent years.

I don't think we can blame Gavin Newsom or Joe Biden for this.
 
Our mall has three anchor stores, Sears (already closed), JC Penney, and Macy's. I would not be surprised if our Macy's is on the list.
 
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