Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

More on the medical caravan:

Autopsies of Gaza Medics Killed by Israeli Troops Show Some Were Shot in the Head

The paramedics and rescue workers killed in an Israeli shooting in Gaza last month died mainly from gunshots to the head or chest, while others had shrapnel injuries or other wounds, according to autopsy reports obtained by The New York Times.

Israeli troops had fired on ambulances and a fire truck sent by the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the Civil Defense, according to witness accounts, video and audio of the March 23 attack.

Israel acknowledged carrying out the attack, which killed 15 men: 14 rescue workers and a United Nations employee who drove by after the others were shot. Israeli soldiers buried most of the bodies in a mass grave, crushed the ambulances, fire truck and a U.N. vehicle, and buried those as well.

The more details emerge, the less defensible this sounds.

Given the mass grave, it is pretty obvious the IDF was ashamed of its actions. Now there is just more evidence of their wrongdoing.

If they were ashamed of their actions why report it at all?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And, once again, we see that Hamas wants the aid, it doesn't want it simply going to the people.

Once again, I'm providing the untranslated link given how the software pukes on mixing right-to-left and left-to-right languages.

The Government Media Office affirmed its categorical rejection of attempts to impose "dangerous" proposals and mechanisms for distributing humanitarian aid in the Gaza Strip. These proposals would see Israeli occupation soldiers or private companies affiliated with the occupation directly distributing aid to Palestinian families

See anything in that that says where there would be any danger?? No, because the only danger is that Hamas can't use the aid to control the people. It's a danger for Hamas, not for the people.

 

[laughing dog]

More on the medical caravan:

Autopsies of Gaza Medics Killed by Israeli Troops Show Some Were Shot in the Head

The paramedics and rescue workers killed in an Israeli shooting in Gaza last month died mainly from gunshots to the head or chest, while others had shrapnel injuries or other wounds, according to autopsy reports obtained by The New York Times.

Israeli troops had fired on ambulances and a fire truck sent by the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the Civil Defense, according to witness accounts, video and audio of the March 23 attack.

Israel acknowledged carrying out the attack, which killed 15 men: 14 rescue workers and a United Nations employee who drove by after the others were shot. Israeli soldiers buried most of the bodies in a mass grave, crushed the ambulances, fire truck and a U.N. vehicle, and buried those as well.

The more details emerge, the less defensible this sounds.

Given the mass grave, it is pretty obvious the IDF was ashamed of its actions. Now there is just more evidence of their wrongdoing.

If they were ashamed of their actions why report it at all?

They were caught on video. The admission came AFTER the videos went public and the massacre was in the news. I suspect, it was an attempt at public damage control.

 

[Arctish]

Yes, it is. The government would fall in the next election, Hamas would be elected and carry out their genocide.

So, if the Palestinian refugees returned in a slow trickle of individuals, in controlled stages no less, the government of Israel would immediately fall and genocide against Jews would get underway.

And what makes you assume a trickle in controlled stages???

Because that was the proposal Palestinians accepted and it's the one I'm citing.

How many self-hating Jews do you suppose there are in Israel? They must be almost exactly as numerous as Jews who want to survive. So, 3.5 million or more?

I would call your post delusional if I didn't know that your schtick is bullshit. But in the interests of giving you a chance to back up your assertion, tell us why you think a few thousand refugees returning to their former communities means genocide against an overwhelming majority that has control of the government, armed forces, and economy.

You made up a meaningless scenario as a supposed rebuttal. The only return the Palestinians are going to accept is everyone, including all their descendants living in other countries.

Bullshit. Also, racist fear mongering.

Jews don't die when justice prevails. In fact, the opposite happens. Peaceful co-existence might be detrimental to a certain faction's plans to dominate a religious ethno-state but it is beneficial to the people who experience it. As someone who lives in a place where peaceful co-existence is the norm, not the exception, you might have noticed that.

You have some very naive views of what would happen. Peaceful coexistence has never happened, the only question is just how much violence was directed at the Jews.

Bullshit.

It happened for 400 years right there in Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th.

And blacks peacefully coexisted with whites during Jim Crow. That's the "peace" you want.

Expand on this, please. In what way were the lives of blacks under Jim Crow law comparable to the lives of Jews in Palestine under Ottoman rule? It looks like you're making an appeal to emotion by using trigger words but I'm willing to discuss this with you (again).

We have already discussed the jizya tax and how it applied to Jews, Christians, Druze, Yazidis, etc. We also discussed the representation of the various ethnic and religious communities at the upper echelons of the government, and the degree of self-rule each community enjoyed, so don't pretend you don't know just how much religious freedom and local control people had under the millet system.

And anyway, I have already said I don't think the Ottoman system was perfect or that there wasn't room for improvement, so don't try to mischaracterize my posts, either.

I said the people of Palestine enjoyed 400 years of peaceful coexistence under Ottoman rule, that the only times I know about where ethnic strife occurred were two times the Ottomans briefly lost control, and that the claim that Palestinian Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't live together in peace is arrant nonsense. So you can either demonstrate (with links) that the lives of Palestinians weren't peaceful, that ethnic strife was ongoing, or you can accept the inconvenient truth that Palestinian Jews didn't join the European immigrants in the Zionist movement because they didn't feel the need for a Jewish State when the multi-ethnic, multi-religion, multi-cultural society they lived in was something they valued and wanted to preserve.

And now that they rebelled and threw off their oppressors they don't dare go back. Think of domestic violence, it's a perfect model for what's happening.

Who is "they"?

The European Jews who immigrated to Palestine and fought to create a Jewish State were escaping other Europeans.

That's not addressing the comparison at all.

And note that the majority of Jews came from Arab lands, not Europe.

I note you keep saying that but when asked to back up your claim the best you can do is show that Jews emigrated to Israel in the decades following its founding and that you keep including Algerian Jews in the count despite the fact that most of the Jews who left Algeria did so in order to retain their French citizenship, and that most of them went to France.

If you have evidence Palestinian Jews were oppressed by their Palestinian Christian and Muslim neighbors, share it with the rest of us.

Back up your claims, Loren.

And anyway, your posting history indicates you don't give a fuck when it's Jews moving into settlements in the West Bank where they will be vastly outnumbered by non-Jews, so why the pearl clutching when it's a few thousand non-Jewish refugees returning to their former homes in Israel? Could it be that your argument is nothing but racist fearmongering in defense of preserving the results of ethnic cleansing? It certainly looks that way.

It's not a few thousand, it would be several million.

Says who?

Link to your source that says the Return of the refugees would mean several million immediately moving in who would be immediately eligible to vote and would overthrow the government and march Jews off to death camps. They sound both hysterical and extremely ill-informed. That or else they're truly, deeply anti-Psemitic racists spouting off about how much they detest the idea of Palestinians living in the religious ethno-state of their dreams.

I'm saying that several million right now is the only right of return that the Palestinians will accept. You making up fantasies doesn't change that.

Even if you were right (and you clearly aren't, see the linked article above and ffs do some research before you spout off on what Palestinians will accept), that doesn't mean there can't be peaceful co-existence between Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Palestine, only that the hardcore bigoted Zionists won't have the exclusive Jewish ethno-state they envision.

 

[Arctish]

And why they came to naught was that Hamas doesn't like prosperity.

Interesting.

Please share your links which have given you the idea Hamas' doesn't like prosperity.

Because they constantly act in a fashion to preclude it.

I suspect it's a racist screed that dehumanizes Palestinians, but I could be wrong. It might be a carefully researched, perceptive, and insightful analysis of the inner workings of a terrorist organization with a strange aversion to something most terrorists want very much.

I didn't say the Palestinians don't like prosperity. I specifically said Hamas. Last I checked Hamas isn't a race. And it's not because of race but rather that if there is prosperity the people won't be desperate enough to enlist with Hamas. The Palestinian territories used to be the most prosperous non-oil Arab nation. Now there's little more than Hamas.

Understand that Hamas answers to Iran, not Gaza. They are not acting in the interests of Gaza and most of their actions are decidedly not in the interests of the people.

Just because some of us don't bother to distinguish Hamas from Gaza from the people of Gaza doesn't mean we don't recognize the difference. We are just using labels of convenience, like people might say that Washington wants something when they mean the US government.

Hamas shells the checkpoint so Israel pulls it's people under cover and thus closes the checkpoint. There goes the produce. Hamas knew what would happen when they shelled the checkpoint.

When did Hamas shell the checkpoint? Was it a one-time event or did it happen more than once? Did it ever happen when Jewish settlers were the ones exporting produce?

It happens every so often. It usually doesn't make the news.

And you're asking a stupid question--there are no Jewish settlers exporting produce through checkpoints into Gaza, thus the notion of Hamas shelling them is nonsense.

Be specific.

If you want to discuss events you have to provide links to reports about them. You have to do your own research and know at least a little bit about the topic. That's how discussions here work.

So, link to your source and let's sort out the facts from the fiction. As I recall, you fell for that racist story about Palestinians destroying the greenhouses like petulant children. Have you looked into it any further than that?

Are you saying they weren't destroyed??

And it's not petulant children, it's carefully orchestrated by the terrorists.

And not one link was shared that day.

Back up your claims, Loren.

Provide the evidence that supports your claims that Hamas doesn't like prosperity.

Provide your evidence of the timing and frequency of shelling of the checkpoint at the Karni crossing.

Provide your evidence the greenhouses were destroyed in a manner that was carefully orchestrated by terrorists.

I believe you are making shit up as you go along but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here by asking for whatever shitty sources you're using. Perhaps they are to blame.

 

[bilby]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

Loren, you aren't remotely stupid.

Scavengers off the crumpled buried ambulance?

You think they were still in the ambulance???

And you think a crumbled vehicle could possibly keep off scavengers?? Do you have no experience with wildlife? You can't just leave corpses laying around without scavengers showing up.

Have you never run into the instructions for blowing up a dead horse?

The US Forest Service Guide To Completely Obliterating A Horse With Explosives

Trust us, this is not something you want to get wrong.

www.iflscience.com

Think something like that would exist if there wasn't sometimes an issue with dead horses bringing scavengers??

And note that's the US Forest Service, hardly a combat organization.

So it was the infamous Gaza strip wildlife that you reckon was the problem?

The big ones, like bears and lions, which are always so prevalent in densely populated urban areas?

I mean, you do get that the US Forest Service aren't blowing up horse corpses in Manhattan, right? Not even in Central Park.

Seriously, the sheer weirdness of the stuff you need to assume in order to support your rationalisations should tip you off that you are veering into crazyland. Before you post such shit, why not at least hesitate long enough to see if it passes the laugh test?

 

[robnisch]

Exploding whale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

Loren, you aren't remotely stupid.

Scavengers off the crumpled buried ambulance?

You think they were still in the ambulance???

And you think a crumbled vehicle could possibly keep off scavengers?? Do you have no experience with wildlife? You can't just leave corpses laying around without scavengers showing up.

Have you never run into the instructions for blowing up a dead horse?

The US Forest Service Guide To Completely Obliterating A Horse With Explosives

Trust us, this is not something you want to get wrong.

www.iflscience.com

Think something like that would exist if there wasn't sometimes an issue with dead horses bringing scavengers??

And note that's the US Forest Service, hardly a combat organization.

JFC! They buried the ambulance Loren. To protect the ambulance from scavangers?

 

[bilby]

JFC! They buried the ambulance Loren. To protect the ambulance from scavangers?

They are not far from the desert, perhaps they were worried about Jawas.

 

[laughing dog]

Israeli troops killed 15 Palestinian medics and buried them in a mass grave, UN says

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians held funerals Monday for 15 medics and emergency responders killed by Israeli troops in southern Gaza, after their bodies and mangled ambulances were found buried in an impromptu mass grave, apparently plowed over by Israeli military bulldozers.

The Palestinian Red Crescent says the slain workers and their vehicles were clearly marked as medical and humanitarian personnel and accused Israeli troops of killing them “in cold blood.” The Israeli military says its troops opened fire on vehicles that approached them “suspiciously” without identification.

The Israeli military said Sunday that on March 23, troops opened fire on vehicles that were “advancing suspiciously” toward them without emergency signals.

It said “an initial assessment” determined that the troops killed a Hamas operative named Mohammed Amin Shobaki and eight other militants. Israel has struck ambulances and other emergency vehicles in the past, accusing Hamas militants of using them for transportation.

However, none of the dead staffers from the Red Crescent and Civil Defense had that name, and no other bodies were reported found at the site, raising questions over the military’s suggestion that alleged militants were among the rescue workers.

Don't know exactly what happened but that's not an accurate report.

IDF shares initial details from Gaza ambulance probe, says troops told UN of burial site

Military says it's looking into discrepancy between soldiers' account and video from medic's phone, but asserts forces didn't try to hide incident, denies any executions took place

www.timesofisrael.com

Note that the "grave" was simply piling sand on top to keep scavengers off.

Loren, you aren't remotely stupid.

Scavengers off the crumpled buried ambulance?

You think they were still in the ambulance???

And you think a crumbled vehicle could possibly keep off scavengers?? Do you have no experience with wildlife? You can't just leave corpses laying around without scavengers showing up.

Have you never run into the instructions for blowing up a dead horse?

The US Forest Service Guide To Completely Obliterating A Horse With Explosives

Trust us, this is not something you want to get wrong.

www.iflscience.com

Think something like that would exist if there wasn't sometimes an issue with dead horses bringing scavengers??

And note that's the US Forest Service, hardly a combat organization.

JFC! They buried the ambulance Loren. To protect the ambulance from scavangers?

If the IDF had buried the bodies (with bullet holes in the head ostensibly from a bombing) for such humanitarian concerns, you’d think the IDF would say so. So far, no such statement has been proffered.

 

[ZiprHead]

Bullshit.

It happened for 400 years right there in Palestine from the 16th century to the 20th.

And blacks peacefully coexisted with whites during Jim Crow. That's the "peace" you want.

Amazingly ironic for you to say that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

More on the medical caravan:

Autopsies of Gaza Medics Killed by Israeli Troops Show Some Were Shot in the Head

The paramedics and rescue workers killed in an Israeli shooting in Gaza last month died mainly from gunshots to the head or chest, while others had shrapnel injuries or other wounds, according to autopsy reports obtained by The New York Times.

Israeli troops had fired on ambulances and a fire truck sent by the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the Civil Defense, according to witness accounts, video and audio of the March 23 attack.

Israel acknowledged carrying out the attack, which killed 15 men: 14 rescue workers and a United Nations employee who drove by after the others were shot. Israeli soldiers buried most of the bodies in a mass grave, crushed the ambulances, fire truck and a U.N. vehicle, and buried those as well.

The more details emerge, the less defensible this sounds.

Given the mass grave, it is pretty obvious the IDF was ashamed of its actions. Now there is just more evidence of their wrongdoing.

If they were ashamed of their actions why report it at all?

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

 

[ZiprHead]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

 

[laughing dog]

More on the medical caravan:

Autopsies of Gaza Medics Killed by Israeli Troops Show Some Were Shot in the Head

The paramedics and rescue workers killed in an Israeli shooting in Gaza last month died mainly from gunshots to the head or chest, while others had shrapnel injuries or other wounds, according to autopsy reports obtained by The New York Times.

Israeli troops had fired on ambulances and a fire truck sent by the Palestine Red Crescent Society and the Civil Defense, according to witness accounts, video and audio of the March 23 attack.

Israel acknowledged carrying out the attack, which killed 15 men: 14 rescue workers and a United Nations employee who drove by after the others were shot. Israeli soldiers buried most of the bodies in a mass grave, crushed the ambulances, fire truck and a U.N. vehicle, and buried those as well.

The more details emerge, the less defensible this sounds.

Given the mass grave, it is pretty obvious the IDF was ashamed of its actions. Now there is just more evidence of their wrongdoing.

If they were ashamed of their actions why report it at all?

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything. ….

Upfront means reporting right after it happens, not responding to multiple public reports with credible footage.

 

[Derec]

Provide the evidence that supports your claims that Hamas doesn't like prosperity.

Prosperity for whom? They definitely like prosperity for their own leaders, who have siphoned plenty of international aid money for themselves.
Prosperity for the Palestinian people? It is obviously that they could not give a wet fart about that.
Otherwise, they would not be spending billions on rockets and digging hundreds of miles of their reinforced tunnel network.
Otherwise, they would not be shooting rockets into Israel, nor starting wars like the current one.

It does not take a genius to realize that these policies are not exactly conducive to a prosperous population.

 

[Arctish]

Provide the evidence that supports your claims that Hamas doesn't like prosperity.

Prosperity for whom? They definitely like prosperity for their own leaders, who have siphoned plenty of international aid money for themselves.

Loren said the reason the greenhouse project came to naught was because Hamas doesn't like prosperity. I am asking him to post his argument, not just a snarky line of empty rhetoric.

Prosperity for the Palestinian people? It is obviously that they could not give a wet fart about that.

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

There is nothing in their charter, position papers, or official statements that would lead one to believe they don't like prosperity or would work to thwart it in Gaza. If you think you can support Loren's claims, go right ahead and post the links to credible sources that provide the information his posts are lacking.

Otherwise, they would not be spending billions on rockets and digging hundreds of miles of their reinforced tunnel network.
Otherwise, they would not be shooting rockets into Israel, nor starting wars like the current one.

If disavowing terrorism and being committed to diplomatic solutions had brought prosperity to Palestinians living in the West Bank under the PA, you might have a point. But since they, too, cannot prosper under current economic and social conditions, and in fact keep losing homes, farmland, orchards, and other resources to Israelis building and expanding settlements (and some just being destructive assholes), and since the lack of prosperity and economic sabotage in Gaza predates the election that brought Hamas to power, the argument that Gazans would prosper if they simply sidelined Hamas and stopped fighting is absurd.

Also, those tunnels began as an economic lifeline for Gaza. Citing them as evidence Hamas doesn't care about prosperity is through-the-looking-glass levels of absurdity.

It does not take a genius to realize that these policies are not exactly conducive to a prosperous population.

And again, if Israel had allowed the Palestinians in the West Bank to prosper once the PA renounced terrorism, you might have a point. As it stands, the only likely path to prosperity for Palestinians means ending the Occupation. Hamas is willing to use terrorism to make that happen. That does not mean Hamas is against prosperity. Quite the opposite in fact. The impossibility of prosperity under the current conditions is why so many people join Hamas.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine, until the Zionist entity and all Zionists themselves do not exist, which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

FIFY

Since “all Zionists” includes Zionists in other parts of the world, I doubt you improved the statement.

 

[Derec]

Loren said the reason the greenhouse project came to naught was because Hamas doesn't like prosperity. I am asking him to post his argument, not just a snarky line of empty rhetoric.

The behavior of Hamas et al is the argument. The terrorist factions like Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al do not care whether or not Palestinian civilians live or die, much less about their prosperity.
In fact, they see dead Palestinians as a PR cudgel for the useful idiots in the West, especially the pampered college students in places like Columbia.
That's why they shoot rockets from the tent city in Al Mawasi. For example, see this rocket launcher being struck with precision.

From here. Forget blatant MEE editorializing, since the strike clearly didn't hit a tent but the rocket launcher, which is visible in the first few frames.
Note that the tent dwellers must have been warned of the strike, as they had ample time to position a couple of cameras perfectly.
Note also the secondary explosion, indicating that there was at least one rocket at the site being struck.

That's also why Hamas leader Mohammed Deif hid out in Al Mawasi surrounded by a large cache of weapons.

Note the large secondary explosion.

Those are not the actions of a group that cares about the lives of the people it ostensibly fights for, much less their prosperity.

Hamas wants the Palestinian people to be free to live and govern themselves in Palestine,

Wrong. Hamas doesn't want Palestinian people to be free. It wants to subjugate them. Gaza governed by Hamas has been an islamofascist theocracy.
Just one example:
Hamas bans women on motorcycles in Gaza Strip
Funny to see you feminists defend these creeps.

which they believe can only happen through armed struggle against the 'Zionist entity', aka Israel.

In other words, they want to destroy Israel and extend their oppressive rule over Israeli territory as well.
For that purpose, they keep attacking Israel even though that is detrimental to prosperity, and in fact the very lives, of what is ostensibly their people. Thanks for making my point for me.

There is nothing in their charter, position papers, or official statements that would lead one to believe they don't like prosperity or would work to thwart it in Gaza.

I'd rather go by their actions. And their actions have been detrimental to peace and prosperity.

If you think you can support Loren's claims, go right ahead and post the links to credible sources that provide the information his posts are lacking.

It would be difficult to find support you would accept. Unless they act like cartoon villains and put "we hate prosperity" in their charter, you will ignore that their actions have been antithetical to prosperity for the Palestinian people.

If disavowing terrorism and being committed to diplomatic solutions had brought prosperity to Palestinians living in the West Bank under the PA, you might have a point.

Are you laboring under the misapprehension that there is no terrorism, no Hamas, no Islamic Jihad, in the West Bank?
PA does not have effective control over all areas it has de jure control over, especially the so-called "refugee camps" like Jenin Camp. Jenin is really Little Gaza at this point.

Note that the areas that are more peaceful and where PA has effective control over are also more prosperous than the ones that are controlled by groups such as "Lion's Den" or "Jenin Brigades". Just look at this new mall in Ramallah.

But since they, too, cannot prosper under current economic and social conditions, and in fact keep losing homes, farmland, orchards, and other resources to Israelis building and expanding settlements (and some just being destructive assholes),

Note that these things increased since the 10/7 attacks. But even before 10/7, there have been attacks by Palestinian terror groups from West Bank cells.

and since the lack of prosperity and economic sabotage in Gaza predates the election that brought Hamas to power, the argument that Gazans would prosper if they simply sidelined Hamas and stopped fighting is absurd.

It is not absurd. I have said this before, but here goes again.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, removing all settlements and soldiers. That was a chance for Gaza to show they can live in peace with their neighbor. It could have been a blueprint for eventual statehood. Instead, Gazans chose to shoot rockets into Israel. And they have not stopped attacking Israel for the last 20 years.

Also, those tunnels began as an economic lifeline for Gaza. Citing them as evidence Hamas doesn't care about prosperity is through-the-looking-glass levels of absurdity.

No, it isn't. Quite the contrary. The smuggling tunnels toward Egypt are different than the attack tunnels dug toward Israel. They are also different from the extensive network of tunnels inside the Gaza Strip that serve to conceal movements of terror fighters and rockets, hide fighters and weapons etc. Even your NatGeo article acknowledges the difference. Here's a map of some of the Hamas tunnel network.

To get back to the prosperity argument, many billions were spent digging mile upon mile of this extensive tunnel network.

And besides, had Gaza not been attacking Israel since the 2005 disengagement, there would have been no reason for Israel to impose restrictions on trade, which would have rendered even smuggling tunnels moot.

And again, if Israel had allowed the Palestinians in the West Bank to prosper once the PA renounced terrorism, you might have a point.

PA did not fully renounce terrorism. Otherwise they would not have operated the "Pay for Slay" scheme that pays imprisoned terrorists and families of dead ones. Even now, they merely changed how it operates, and did not end it.
Despite False Promises, Palestinian Authority Proudly Continues ‘Pay-for-Slay’ Program

But in any case, West Bank is far more prosperous than Gaza, and parts of West Bank (like Ramallah) that are more peaceful are also far more prosperous than terrorist dens like Jenin.

As it stands, the only likely path to prosperity for Palestinians means ending the Occupation.

That must be the end of the process, not the beginning. It would be foolish for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank only for the same thing to happen as happened in Gaza in 2005. Gaza disengagement was a test for a possible Palestinian statehood, and Gaza failed the test.
Note also that Israel has historical ties to the regions of Judea and Samaria that form the "West Bank". As such, the issue of territory is far more complicated than Gaza.

Hamas is willing to use terrorism to make that happen. That does not mean Hamas is against prosperity. Quite the opposite in fact. The impossibility of prosperity under the current conditions is why so many people join Hamas.

Prosperity is far more impossible with Hamas. Israel will not let themselves be genocided, no matter how much Hamas desires it.
And Hamas continuing to attack Israel over and over again invites counterattacks that keep Palestinian population poor and suffering. Far more obviously in Gaza, but there is Hamas (as well as Islamic Jihad and others) in West Bank as well.

Should the Gaza war end soon, it will still take 20-25 years to rebuild the Strip, and it will cost >$50G. Much of that cost will be wages for local workers.
So Gaza will have a chance to have brand new infrastructure, newly constructed buildings, and billions paid to local workers. Those workers will then want to spend it for goods and services, stimulating economic activity. In other words, Gaza will have a chance at some degree of prosperity in the future.
But that is only possible if Gaza stops attacking Israel. And that is only possible if Hamas and similar groups are done away with. Prosperity is not possible when terrorists are in charge, or even allowed to operate within a territory (like Hezbollah is in Lebanon).

 

[laughing dog]

I didn't know that there are degrees of impossibility.