The Manhood Trap

[ZiprHead]

I think we need to know more about the procedures used to determine whether the student should be expelled or not before we make blanket statements of persecution.

 

[Toni]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

 

[Toni]

I think we need to know more about the procedures used to determine whether the student should be expelled or not before we make blanket statements of persecution.

I think allegations of rape should be investigated by police and prosecuted when charges are warranted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

Toni, a person was unjustly expelled 10 years ago. Clearly false accusations leading to expulsion are at epidemic proportions! Remember the #MeToo movement and how that very temporarily ruined the lives of a handful of males? C.K. Louis lost out on doing the sequel to Secret Life of Pets... The Sequel!!!

Why can't you think of this from the perspective of a male instead of the perspective of sexual assault victims?

 

[Bronzeage]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

Toni, a person was unjustly expelled 10 years ago. Clearly false accusations leading to expulsion are at epidemic proportions! Remember the #MeToo movement and how that very temporarily ruined the lives of a handful of males? C.K. Louis lost out on doing the sequel to Secret Life of Pets... The Sequel!!!

Why can't you think of this from the perspective of a male instead of the perspective of sexual assault victims?

If a man walked into a police station and reported he had been drinking in a bar and a woman stole his wallet, no one is going to tell him he was asking for it to be stolen.

On the spectrum of sexual interactions, at one end is criminal assault as defined by law. On the other is consensual exchange. Somewhere in between is a gray area that are bad actions that don't fall under legal statutes. This is where society is free to declare sanctions against the offender. This is why we brand, "road rangers" and "Karen's" as assholes, or just not good people.

When a man uses his superior power, whether it's physical strength, wealth, or business position, to coerse a woman into a sexual encounter, it might not be a crime, but society has every right to pass judgement. Actually, it's more of an obligation.

 

[Toni]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

Toni, a person was unjustly expelled 10 years ago. Clearly false accusations leading to expulsion are at epidemic proportions! Remember the #MeToo movement and how that very temporarily ruined the lives of a handful of males? C.K. Louis lost out on doing the sequel to Secret Life of Pets... The Sequel!!!

Why can't you think of this from the perspective of a male instead of the perspective of sexual assault victims?

If a man walked into a police station and reported he had been drinking in a bar and a woman stole his wallet, no one is going to tell him he was asking for it to be stolen.

On the spectrum of sexual interactions, at one end is criminal assault as defined by law. On the other is consensual exchange. Somewhere in between is a gray area that are bad actions that don't fall under legal statutes. This is where society is free to declare sanctions against the offender. This is why we brand, "road rangers" and "Karen's" as assholes, or just not good people.

When a man uses his superior power, whether it's physical strength, wealth, or business position, to coerse a woman into a sexual encounter, it might not be a crime, but society has every right to pass judgement. Actually, it's more of an obligation.

As a matter of fact, when any person using their physical powers to coerce sex from another person, it is a crime. It’s called rape. It’s illegal in every state.

Sometimes, using wealth and positions of power to coerce sex is also a crime. Ask Harvey Weinstein. In other instances, it may or may not be called rape but it is hard to describe it any other way. Have sex with me or you lose your job, your apartment, flunk this course or something else that very materially threatens the physical or financial security may not always be illegal but it is almost certainly a violation of workplace ethics, fair housing, or other regulations.

 

[Politesse]

I think we need to know more about the procedures used to determine whether the student should be expelled or not before we make blanket statements of persecution.

Not all schools gave implemented Title IX requirements in identical fashion, but every public school is required to post a clear explanation of Title IX rights, policies, and procedures where the students can access them.

 

[ZiprHead]

C.K. Louis

???

 

[GenesisNemesis]

So if I am to understand the objection correctly, we shouldn't automatically believe male accusers either, right?

*waits to be accused of misandry*

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Depends on the size of school. I mostly attended large universities with multiple sections of courses. Not hard to avoid someone.

What do you think it does to a rape victim to have to continue to live in the same dormitory or be in the same classes with your rapist?

The lower level courses, yes. But every high level course I took was offered only once per semester. And we used the same labs.

And what happens to the guy thrown out of school by a false allegation?

He can enroll in a different school.

No, because no school will take him. Lifelong punishment without any trial.

Define false allegation.

I strongly suspect that you believe that such 'false allegations' are because someone has drunk sex with someone that they regret after. What you probably will continue to fail to understand is that most people who are raped have a great many regrets, including over things they had no control over or had no reasonable foreknowledge of. So, a young person goes to a party and someone slips something in their drink or gives her a drink much stronger than expected and they find themselves in a room, not knowing how they got there and not really knowing who that person on top of them is and is unable to form an effective defense or even protest. Yeah, there are a LOT of regrets but it's still rape.

Just because some women are roofied doesn't mean that all drunk sex is rape.

One does not have to be roofied to be raped while drunk. One dies not have to be drunk to be raped. Of course some guys prefer that their victim be drunk or roofied it unconscious.

And this is somehow supposed to be a refutation?

I do not understand exactly where you are getting the impression that there are women who regret having sex and so they accuse the guy of raping them.

The links I provided included such a case. While obviously we can't actually see into her mind it's obvious what happened: She got upset at her boyfriend not answering for hours, went out, hooked up, witnesses said it sounded consensual. When the sex shouldn't have happened but clearly did some women claim rape rather than admit to improper sex.

Again, for those of you who are hard of hearing: Lack of consent is rape.

You seem utterly unable to comprehend that a woman might lie.

Yes, a student accused of rape may find it difficult to be admitted to another university but that’s not impossible. Other reasons a student might find it daunting fictitious to be admitted to another university would include academic dishonesty or theft, assault and serious property damage or other serious crimes. Of course academic dishonesty is not a criminal offense.

And that's supposed to be a defense of injustice?

Nobody's going to take them with that cloud hanging over them, it would be asking for a lawsuit if they raped someone at the new school. Thus there will be no new school.

My opinion is that universities should suspend a student credibly accused of rape pending the outcome of their trial. Because those accused of rape should be investigated and charged, if warranted abd brought to trial.

Lifelong punishment without any opportunity for defense. How about putting it on the other shoe, she's expelled if it looks like he might not have done it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Depends on the size of school. I mostly attended large universities with multiple sections of courses. Not hard to avoid someone.

What do you think it does to a rape victim to have to continue to live in the same dormitory or be in the same classes with your rapist?

The lower level courses, yes. But every high level course I took was offered only once per semester. And we used the same labs.

And what happens to the guy thrown out of school by a false allegation?

He can enroll in a different school.

No, because no school will take him. Lifelong punishment without any trial.

Define false allegation.

I strongly suspect that you believe that such 'false allegations' are because someone has drunk sex with someone that they regret after. What you probably will continue to fail to understand is that most people who are raped have a great many regrets, including over things they had no control over or had no reasonable foreknowledge of. So, a young person goes to a party and someone slips something in their drink or gives her a drink much stronger than expected and they find themselves in a room, not knowing how they got there and not really knowing who that person on top of them is and is unable to form an effective defense or even protest. Yeah, there are a LOT of regrets but it's still rape.

Just because some women are roofied doesn't mean that all drunk sex is rape.

You did not define false allegation.

Do you speak English? Are either of those words unfamiliar to you? Or is it that the woman is always right, it's not possible for a woman to make a false allegation?

 

[bilby]

Or is it that the woman is always right, it's not possible for a woman to make a false allegation?

Of course it's possible.

That's why it is beholden on you, and every other man, to make sure that you get to know her well, before you put yourself into her power.

If you don't, it's on you. Too bad; So sad.

If you let your dick do the thinking, then you have to accept the concommitant risks.

Why are you trying to have sex with a woman you don't have good reason to trust? Are you a fucking idiot??

 

[Patooka]

I misread the thread title as the Mahmoud Trap, assumed it was started by Derec to complain about Muslims, and decided to skip it.

Guess I need to get my eyes checked.

You made the right choice, just came about it the wrong way.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The question was whether it existed. Clearly it does. I didn't do a detailed search. And of course they're old--people don't discuss active cases. The issue is expulsion (or pseudo-expulsion: keeping him out of any classes they share effectively expels them if they're in the same year and same degree--that is, classmates) based on accusation. That's going to be a major blow (good luck getting into another school when they found out why) with no recourse.

He was removed due to accusations of sexual harassment. With male predators being held account these days, schools likely need to adapt to being able to manage some level of judicial review. The best option would be for the state legal board to create an outline for guidance. Of course, a school is a school, not a court. We rarely ever have a person accused of assault admit to it. So there will usually be some level of doubt as there are two sides. Being able to manage it evenly and fairly is important.

Of course, the number of people being expelled because of this seems awfully small.

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think we need to know more about the procedures used to determine whether the student should be expelled or not before we make blanket statements of persecution.

1) Who said anything about persecution? This isn't malice, it's amateur hour.

2) What we have seen is absolutely damning. She's afraid of retaliation so you don't get to know who accused you of what. Guilty until proven innocent and no ability to mount a defense.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

In other words, punish men for the sins of other men.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think we need to know more about the procedures used to determine whether the student should be expelled or not before we make blanket statements of persecution.

I think allegations of rape should be investigated by police and prosecuted when charges are warranted.

And I have no problem at all with that.

Professionals, constitutional protections.

Where I have a problem is with colleges playing cop + court while hiding behind the fact it's not a criminal prosecution that gives the accused rights.

 

[laughing dog]

The question was whether it existed. Clearly it does. I didn't do a detailed search. And of course they're old--people don't discuss active cases. The issue is expulsion (or pseudo-expulsion: keeping him out of any classes they share effectively expels them if they're in the same year and same degree--that is, classmates) based on accusation. That's going to be a major blow (good luck getting into another school when they found out why) with no recourse.

He was removed due to accusations of sexual harassment. With male predators being held account these days, schools likely need to adapt to being able to manage some level of judicial review. The best option would be for the state legal board to create an outline for guidance. Of course, a school is a school, not a court. We rarely ever have a person accused of assault admit to it. So there will usually be some level of doubt as there are two sides. Being able to manage it evenly and fairly is important.

Of course, the number of people being expelled because of this seems awfully small.

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

Higher education Institutions are permitted to have expectations about acceptable conduct on the part of students and of employees. Those codes of conduct are enforceable. They are not bound by the same rules or protocols of our criminal justice system. Nor should they be.

 

[Toni]

Depends on the size of school. I mostly attended large universities with multiple sections of courses. Not hard to avoid someone.

What do you think it does to a rape victim to have to continue to live in the same dormitory or be in the same classes with your rapist?

The lower level courses, yes. But every high level course I took was offered only once per semester. And we used the same labs.

And what happens to the guy thrown out of school by a false allegation?

He can enroll in a different school.

No, because no school will take him. Lifelong punishment without any trial.

Define false allegation.

I strongly suspect that you believe that such 'false allegations' are because someone has drunk sex with someone that they regret after. What you probably will continue to fail to understand is that most people who are raped have a great many regrets, including over things they had no control over or had no reasonable foreknowledge of. So, a young person goes to a party and someone slips something in their drink or gives her a drink much stronger than expected and they find themselves in a room, not knowing how they got there and not really knowing who that person on top of them is and is unable to form an effective defense or even protest. Yeah, there are a LOT of regrets but it's still rape.

Just because some women are roofied doesn't mean that all drunk sex is rape.

One does not have to be roofied to be raped while drunk. One dies not have to be drunk to be raped. Of course some guys prefer that their victim be drunk or roofied it unconscious.

And this is somehow supposed to be a refutation?

I do not understand exactly where you are getting the impression that there are women who regret having sex and so they accuse the guy of raping them.

The links I provided included such a case. While obviously we can't actually see into her mind it's obvious what happened: She got upset at her boyfriend not answering for hours, went out, hooked up, witnesses said it sounded consensual. When the sex shouldn't have happened but clearly did some women claim rape rather than admit to improper sex.

Again, for those of you who are hard of hearing: Lack of consent is rape.

You seem utterly unable to comprehend that a woman might lie.

Yes, a student accused of rape may find it difficult to be admitted to another university but that’s not impossible. Other reasons a student might find it daunting fictitious to be admitted to another university would include academic dishonesty or theft, assault and serious property damage or other serious crimes. Of course academic dishonesty is not a criminal offense.

And that's supposed to be a defense of injustice?

Nobody's going to take them with that cloud hanging over them, it would be asking for a lawsuit if they raped someone at the new school. Thus there will be no new school.

My opinion is that universities should suspend a student credibly accused of rape pending the outcome of their trial. Because those accused of rape should be investigated and charged, if warranted abd brought to trial.

Lifelong punishment without any opportunity for defense. How about putting it on the other shoe, she's expelled if it looks like he might not have done it.

Again, you are relying entirely upon the reports of the defendant’s lawyers. The story is entirely his POV—and his legal team’s.

From her perspective, she might have been calling her boyfriend for help when she found herself inebriated and unable to function as she needed to—advocate for herself.

It is not at all uncommon for rape victims to try to placate their attackers, to try to keep them from getting angry and hurting or raping then again. It is not uncommon for rape victims to minimize what happened and to feel tremendous shame and self blame.

For many years now, it has been well known that having sex with a person who is too drunk or drugged to be able to form meaningful consent is considered rape.

The underlying reasons she was drunk

 

[laughing dog]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

In other words, punish men for the sins of other men.

No, it’s an attempt to get men to think about walking a mile in a woman’s shoes (’s?) and how that might affect their view.