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The objective mind

Objectivity and subjectivity are not something you can just claim exists.

The subjective mind is our experience of a mind.

And I can claim that we have experiences of having a mind.

The objective mind is the how the subjective mind is created.

If the subjective mind exists then it has to exist because of some objective activity.

It can't just exist.

So you say. It's all mind. Subjective objective are arbitrary distinctions that serve a purpose in communications.

No matter how precisely you attempt to define objective vs subjective there will always be exceptions and grey areas.

I don't say it is all mind.

But what we use to think and communicate with is all mind.

Everything we experience we experience with our mind.

We are an embodied mind.

The word "mind" is a catch all word.

It generally means "that which experiences and acts".

We live in a society where people are put to death because we believe they freely acted with their free mind.

I see no neuroscientists wailing and grinding their teeth and begging we stop.

They don't believe the bullshit some of them are peddling.
 
No brain, no electrochemical brain activity.

No electrochemical brain activity, no consciousness, no mind and no volitional movement, no lifting of arms, no walking, eating, thinking or doing.

Volition - the cognitive process by which an organism decides on and commits to a particular course of action


Clinical Neurophysiology , Volume 118 , Issue 6 , Pages 1179 - 1192

M . Hallett
Abstract
This review deals with the physiology of the initiation of a voluntary movement and the appreciation of whether it is voluntary or not. I argue that free will is not a driving force for movement, but a conscious awareness concerning the nature of the movement. Movement initiation and the perception of willing the movement can be separately manipulated. Movement is generated subconsciously, and the conscious sense of volition comes later, but the exact time of this event is difficult to assess because of the potentially illusory nature of introspection. Neurological disorders of volition are also reviewed. The evidence suggests that movement is initiated in the frontal lobe, particularly the mesial areas, and the sense of volition arises as the result of a corollary discharge likely involving multiple areas with reciprocal connections including those in the parietal lobe and insular cortex.


Quote;
''Finally, we derived an expression for the variance of the neural spike count that leads to a stable propagation of signal and noise in networks of neurons---that is, conditions that do not impose an accumulation or diminution of noise. The solution implies that single neurons perform simple algebra resembling averaging, and that more sophisticated computations arise by virtue of the anatomical convergence of novel combinations of inputs to the cortical column from external sources.''



Quote;
Subjects in this test performed exactly as if their brains were subconsciously gathering information before reaching a confidence threshold, which was then reported to the conscious mind as a definite, sure answer. The subjects, however, were never aware of the complex computations going on
 
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but many people believe that a mind can exist with no matter (e.g the mind of a supernatural God).
 
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but many people believe that a mind can exist with no matter (e.g the mind of a supernatural God).

That is something that can be brought into a discussion, like all things, when it can be examined.

When the objective mind is discovered and understood then people can talk about what the mind actually can do.

Until then there is no reason to not believe I (a mind) willfully use my mind (myself) to move my arm.

A brain without a mind is directionless.

It is a quivering reflex.
 
Subjective mind is a dog chasing its tail. Gets real excited with its tail seemingly just within reach if it goes nut a little faster.

Objective is a dog taking a quantifiable piece of your ass for lunch.

Subjective is asking if a tree falling in the woods makes a sound if no one is there to hear it.

Objective is a tree falling on your head.

Subjective is thinking all women want to have sex with our.

Objective is actually having sex with all women as proof of your subjective view.
 
The subjective mind is what you just used to come up with and express all those opinions.

We are embodied minds able to move around as our mind desires. Able to express the ideas of our mind's choosing.
 
Ideas do not just crystalize.

It takes an active mind to create them.

The brain minus the mind does not have any ideas.
 
Ideas do not just crystalize.

It takes an active mind to create them.

The brain minus the mind does not have any ideas.

Ok, Blood does not supply oxygen to cells without a heart to pump it. Without blood there is no O2 to the brain,.. Without O2 to the brain there is no mind. What us your point Captain Obvious?

Defining subjective as all perceptions is itself subjective. You demonstrate the futility of defining subjective vs objective, it can only be shown as examples. In your case a dog chasing its short tail.
 
Of course all our definitions are subjective.

All is subjective.

We are subjects completely isolated from anything objective.

The objective mind however is whatever it is that causes the subjective.

I am saying, subjectively, that it is unlikely the subjective exists without something objective as the cause.
 
Of course all our definitions are subjective.

All is subjective.

We are subjects completely isolated from anything objective.

The objective mind however is whatever it is that causes the subjective.

I am saying, subjectively, that it is unlikely the subjective exists without something objective as the cause.

Yin Yang, loud soft, heavy light....we precise relative to a reference of experience. A definition of all perception is subjective is faulty. I perceive numbers on a display indicating temperature. The perception is objective. I perceive two people interacting and I perceive they may be in love, subjective perception.

I weigh an object to be 50kg. Objective perception as interpretation of reality. I pick it up and how heavy it feels is subjective interpretation o reality..

All is perception. Subjective and objective are arbitrary categories of perception. Dualism infers you can't have one without the oter.
 
Ideas do not just crystalize.

It takes an active mind to create them.

The brain minus the mind does not have any ideas.

There is no mind without an active brain.

I have never denied it.

Some kind of activity, we have no idea what it is, creates the mind.

AND once created it is a thing that can influence the brain.
 
Ideas do not just crystalize.

It takes an active mind to create them.

The brain minus the mind does not have any ideas.

There is no mind without an active brain.

I have never denied it.

Some kind of activity, we have no idea what it is, creates the mind.

AND once created it is a thing that can influence the brain.

What you do is ignore the implications of brain generated mind and project your own beliefs far beyond anything that's supported by evidence....if mind is an activity of a brain, it stands to reason that mind cannot act independently from the brain, that mind cannot and does not achieve autonomy as the 'smart driver of a dumb brain,' as you have stated in the past.
 
....A motivated brain covers all your intervening gibberish. Motivation is an operational term for dealing with more global squirt effects associated with brain work.
This would be based on things for it to seek and avoid. And these would be based on fundamental pleasures and pains.
 
I have never denied it.

Some kind of activity, we have no idea what it is, creates the mind.

AND once created it is a thing that can influence the brain.

What you do is ignore the implications of brain generated mind and project your own beliefs far beyond anything that's supported by evidence....if mind is an activity of a brain, it stands to reason that mind cannot act independently from the brain, that mind cannot and does not achieve autonomy as the 'smart driver of a dumb brain,' as you have stated in the past.

You just don't know how it works and pretend it isn't there.

You too must do something with your mind to get your arm to move.

It does not just move on it's own.

Your mind directs the movement, not your brain. Your brain controls the movement.

You don't have the slightest clue what you are doing with your mind or have the slightest clue what the mind is.

Your position is one drawn from ignorance.

There are some things to know about the brain but our ignorance far exceeds our knowledge. We are just barely scraping the surface.
 
I have never denied it.

Some kind of activity, we have no idea what it is, creates the mind.

AND once created it is a thing that can influence the brain.

What you do is ignore the implications of brain generated mind and project your own beliefs far beyond anything that's supported by evidence....if mind is an activity of a brain, it stands to reason that mind cannot act independently from the brain, that mind cannot and does not achieve autonomy as the 'smart driver of a dumb brain,' as you have stated in the past.

You just don't know how it works and pretend it isn't there.

What is not understood is how a brain forms its subjective representation of information; conscious mind, and not that there is not an inseparable relationship between brain activity and its expression of mind, or the obvious, that there is no conscious mind without brain activity in a specific form.

You too must do something with your mind to get your arm to move.

It is a brain that moves limbs, regulates biochemistry, organs, etc and represent both intention of action and that action in conscious form.....what we call a willed action, a conscious movement.

It does not just move on it's own.

That being the work of a brain;

''The primary motor cortex, or M1, is one of the principal brain areas involved in motor function. M1 is located in the frontal lobe of the brain, along a bump called the precentral gyrus (figure 1a). The role of the primary motor cortex is to generate neural impulses that control the execution of movement''

''Almost all of behavior involves motor function, from talking to gesturing to walking. But even a simple movement like reaching out to pick up a glass of water can be a complex motor task to study. Not only does your brain have to figure out which muscles to contract and in which order to steer your hand to the glass, it also has to estimate the force needed to pick up the glass. Other factors, like how much water is in the glass and what material the glass is made from, also influence the brains calculations. Not surprisingly, there are many anatomical regions which are involved in motor function.''
 
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