Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[Arctish]

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but my reading of that law is that a private citizen may arrest a suspect for any offense "if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge". But if the offense is a felony and the suspect is trying to escape, then "reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion" suffice. And observing a burglary via surveillance video would fit I think.

Not unless the video showed them what was happening right at that moment, they could clearly see the person committing the crime, and they gave chase to that person immediately.

If the video was of an alleged burglary that happened days or weeks before, then it doesn't justify their pursuit. If they couldn't clearly see Arbery, then it doesn't justify anything the McMichaels did.

You are arguing that the McMichaels were motivated by bias and malice against Arbery.

No. YOU are arguing that. I am arguing that they were motivated by suspicion that Arbery committed a felony.

You are implying their intention was to mete out extrajudicial punishment by intimidating, harassing, and/or threatening him.

Wrong. By detaining him until police arrived.

You are making it sound like a hate crime, that Arbery was killed by armed white men who took it upon themselves to punish a black man for being in their neighborhood.

First of all Arc, Georgia doesn't have hate crime laws. Second of all, there is no evidence Arbery's race was any part of their motivation. Him being black and them being white is not enough.

If you don't want to make Arbery's death sound like a lynching

You really have to twist the facts to make it sound like a lynching.

I am not saying it was a lynching. I am saying you are making the case that it was. And I pointed out some of the things you are saying that imply it - that the McMichaels felt suspicion, hostility, and anger that Arbery,was in their neighborhood, that they desired to take matters into their own hands, and that they meant to threaten, intimidate, and assault him with a shotgun.

If you don't want to convince people it was a lynching then don't imply the McMichaels felt justified in committing aggravated assault on a black guy they didn't like seeing around the place.

Lying to the police about a burglary recorded on a surveillance video is evidence in favor of it.

Did he though?

We'll see.

We need to see the police report of what McMichael said to the responding officer. And about that surveillance video, was there more than one camera on more than one property? The owner of the house under construction tells a very different story from the one that's been circulating:

Larry English, the man who owns the house under construction, told The Washington Post that the structure was not robbed.

“That’s completely wrong. I’ve never had a police report or anything stolen from my property, or any kind of robbery,” he said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/09/georgia-attorney-general-investigate-local-officials-handling-ahmaud-arberys-murder/

The McMichaels told responding officers that they chased Arbery because they thought he was responsible for recent break-ins in the neighborhood. However, the only theft reported to police involved a gun stolen from Travis McMichael’s unlocked truck, according to reports provided to WTOC by the Glynn County Police Department.

The revelation of this new video showing a man that looks like Arbery inside the home prompted the GBI to respond. The agency confirmed they had the video as evidence but pointed out they had it before arresting the McMichaels.

Below is the entire statement from the homeowner’s attorney, J. Elizabeth Graddy:

"Mr. English wants to correct the mistaken impression that he had shared this video or any other information with the McMichaels prior to the McMichaels’ decision to chase Mr. Arbery. The homeowners had not even seen the February 23 video before Travis McMichael shot Mr. Arbery. When homeowner Larry English saw the photos of Mr. Arbery that were later broadcast, his first impression was that Mr. Arbery was not the man captured on video inside the house on February 23, and he said that to a neighbor.
https://www.wtoc.com/2020/05/11/homeowners-attorney-arbery-familys-attorney-respond-new-video/

What two?

The latter two ones.

They didn't witness or have immediate knowledge of Arbery committing a burglary right before they gave chase,

Yes.

therefore it couldn't have been the reason why they gave chase.

Does not follow logically. They could reasonably and with probable cause have suspected him of burglary without having immediate knowledge.

Witnessing a crime or have immediate knowledge of one is a necessary component of making a citizen's arrest. If they didn't have that, then what they did wasn't lawful under Georgia's statutes.

Nor could they have made a citizen's arrest for burglary because they didn't witness or have immediate knowledge of one.

Not what the plain reading of the text of the law indicates.

The plain reading is that a citizen must be a witness to a crime or have immediate knowledge of a crime in order to effect a citizen's arrest. The McMichaels' had neither.

Greg McMichael wasn't some random guy with a hazy knowledge of Georgia laws. He was a retired investigator for the DA's office. It's quite a stretch to believe he was so ignorant when it came to citizen's arrest he didn't realize he couldn't make one based on mere suspicion.

Reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

I linked to the statute. It's very brief.

The conditions under which a private person can arrest someone is if they witness or have immediate knowledge of a crime; the "upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion" part explains the grounds for arrest when the conditions are met.

If X conditions are met, an arrest can be made upon Y grounds.

Suspicion alone doesn't cut it.

The McMichaels' actions fit the description of aggravated assault, and I have no doubt Greg McMichael knows it.

At least one prosecutor disagreed. The only reason the McMichaelses were arrested was the public pressure. Mob "justice", backed up by threats by the armed black supremacist militia.

As I'm sure you know by now, Waycross Judicial Circuit District Attorney George Barnhill eventually recused himself because his son is an assistant district attorney in the Brunswick circuit and had worked with Greg McMichael on a case involving Arbery. Barnhill should have recused himself the moment he realized his own connection to the suspects and the victim, but instead he wrote a letter that was so sketchy the DOJ is reviewing it.

We'll see what comes of that investigation, too.

 

[Gospel]

It seems likely that they were committing a felony by demanding he stop while they were obviously armed: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.c...minal-offense/georgia-aggravated-assault-laws

They might have committed a simple assault, but that’s a misdemeanor, not a felony per Georgia statute. But even that’s not clear. Just carrying a gun doesn’t create a reasonable apprehension that the carrier is going to use it on you. People carry guns all the time. Open carry is legal. Did the shooter point the gun at him? That s not clearly seen in the video. In fact the video leaves lots of unanswered questions. What was said between the two? “I’m gonna get you?” Or “excuse me, sir, can I ask you a question?” Did Aubrey live near by? If not, why was he jogging there? Is he really a regular jogger? Was he wearing jogging clothes? The reporting here has been pretty poor. The details are important.

Me: Hi! (presents black dude credentials), "My name is Howard Smith & I'm black and also a representative for all niggas; I mean people. I have some insight for you.

Audience: (unclear mumbling)

Me: "The Father was an X professional law enforcement official & the son was'nt.

Audience: (Throwing shoes) BOOO!

Me: (ducking two close counters proceeds unmoved) "The son cared about his father's well being And his poppa happened to be exposed to a threat.

Audience: Nigger lover! Fake News! Boos!

Me: Wait wait wait! Give me a chance

Audience: Leaping from seats like Cleveland VS Golden State during the J. R Smith incident.

Me: His son exited the vehicle with a shotgun. We all know it's hard to drive with a shotgun concealed on your person! (Raises voice over increased volume) We also know it's legal to open carry in the state of Georgia with a WCL or CCP!

Audience: (Grows silent) incoherent rumblings.

Me: In other words who gives a shit?! They guns my nigga!

Audience: (Cheers)

Me: Anyway, his son exited the car while Arbery (the niggers name) was Jogging (I mean running) towards them. You see they done cut the nigger off! (sips water), gotta do that if you want to make a citizens arrest. The situation called for it! They even just so happened to have a cameraman.

Audience: (Preparing bait and tackle)

Me: I said a cameraman nigga! God bless that man, he meant no harm.

Audience: (cheers)

Me: Any how, the son ain't in law enforcement; he fucked up. & Arbery fucked up. The father and the camera man didn't fuck up. That's my opinion.

Audience: Stupid nigger wasted our time! Geet eem booyz!!

Me: You see his dad was on the phone with 911, and yelled at Arbery to stop running as he approached and passed the truck.

Audience: (Guns firing off in a niggers direction)

Me: The father then yelled "Travis!" with the same conviction.

Audience: (successfully shoots a nigger)

Me: (with one last breath) Arbery.... &.... Travis... Fucked....Up.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Shouldn't this case be left to the jury to decide? Or is there a reason to not trust the jury?

 

[Arctish]

Shouldn't this case be left to the jury to decide? Or is there a reason to not trust the jury?

If the case is brought to trial It will be left to the jury to decide unless there's a plea deal.

Right now we are arguing about the legitimacy of the charges.

 

[laughing dog]

The notion that a reasonable suspicion of a felony with a shred of actual evidence justifies civilians chasing down someone and killing him is antithetical to reason and a civilized society.

 

[ZiprHead]

Shouldn't this case be left to the jury to decide? Or is there a reason to not trust the jury?

You do realize this is a discussion board, right?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Shouldn't this case be left to the jury to decide?

Well yeah, that is the whole point. The system should have been allowed to do its job. But really, I doubt the guy would have gone to trial because of trespassing.

 

[Toni]

So you are gonna charge police with assault every time they arrest anyone?

Aubery would only have considered they were trying to make a citizen's arrest if a) he had done anything criminal in nature and b) if his murderers had actually said: We're making a citizen's arrest and holding you here until the police arrive.

It would have been great if (b) happened but come on, you don't wonder into construction sites and get surprised by by attention from some people. He knew damn well why these two were after him.

Mindreading is now one of those magical black people powers? He ‘knew’ why a couple of white men with firearms were chasing him? Well I suppose he did realize his life was in danger. But please do not pretend that they owned the property under construction or had access to video surveillance or were hired to provide security for the property. At the very most, one could say honestly that Arbery was trespassing as doubtless others had been tresspasing in that property under construction had been trespassing and as someone—although not Arbery, had stolen unsecured tools from the property. We know it was t Arbery as he had no stolen property on him and the video does not show him taking anything.

The McMicaels had no legitimate reason to pursue Arbery while armed and he had no reason to stop because they demanded that he do so.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Yeah, he's a black man, alone, on a street in southeast Georgia and two armed white guys in a pickup......let's blame the black man for this one.

 

[barbos]

So you are gonna charge police with assault every time they arrest anyone?

Aubery would only have considered they were trying to make a citizen's arrest if a) he had done anything criminal in nature and b) if his murderers had actually said: We're making a citizen's arrest and holding you here until the police arrive.

It would have been great if (b) happened but come on, you don't wonder into construction sites and get surprised by by attention from some people. He knew damn well why these two were after him.

Mindreading is now one of those magical black people powers? He ‘knew’ why a couple of white men with firearms were chasing him? Well I suppose he did realize his life was in danger. But please do not pretend that they owned the property under construction or had access to video surveillance or were hired to provide security for the property. At the very most, one could say honestly that Arbery was trespassing as doubtless others had been tresspasing in that property under construction had been trespassing and as someone—although not Arbery, had stolen unsecured tools from the property. We know it was t Arbery as he had no stolen property on him and the video does not show him taking anything.

The McMicaels had no legitimate reason to pursue Arbery while armed and he had no reason to stop because they demanded that he do so.

We won't get any progress if after every shooting fuckup, white idiot or not is automatically labeled as blood thirsty racist and black no matter how stupid or criminal is automatically labeled as perfect human being. You only make these rednecks legitimately angry, isolated and mistrusting you when you do that.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Yeah, he's a black man, alone, on a street in southeast Georgia and two armed white guys in a pickup......let's blame the black man for this one.

Well, I mean, he should have known that he would be killed if he dared to go jogging on a street in southeast Georgia. What other possible outcome could there have been?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Mindreading is now one of those magical black people powers? He ‘knew’ why a couple of white men with firearms were chasing him? Well I suppose he did realize his life was in danger. But please do not pretend that they owned the property under construction or had access to video surveillance or were hired to provide security for the property. At the very most, one could say honestly that Arbery was trespassing as doubtless others had been tresspasing in that property under construction had been trespassing and as someone—although not Arbery, had stolen unsecured tools from the property. We know it was t Arbery as he had no stolen property on him and the video does not show him taking anything.

The McMicaels had no legitimate reason to pursue Arbery while armed and he had no reason to stop because they demanded that he do so.

We won't get any progress if after every shooting fuckup, white idiot or not is automatically labeled as blood thirsty racist and black no matter how stupid or criminal is automatically labeled as perfect human being. You only make these rednecks legitimately angry, isolated and mistrusting you when you do that.

Wonderful logic. It's not that they ARE angry, isolated and mistrusting bigoted assholes, it's that, after they kill someone because of their anger, isolation, mistrust and bigotry we CALL them on it. It's OUR fault they are the way they are because we dare to point out the way they are.

Got it.

 

[Trausti]

Mindreading is now one of those magical black people powers? He ‘knew’ why a couple of white men with firearms were chasing him? Well I suppose he did realize his life was in danger. But please do not pretend that they owned the property under construction or had access to video surveillance or were hired to provide security for the property. At the very most, one could say honestly that Arbery was trespassing as doubtless others had been tresspasing in that property under construction had been trespassing and as someone—although not Arbery, had stolen unsecured tools from the property. We know it was t Arbery as he had no stolen property on him and the video does not show him taking anything.

The McMicaels had no legitimate reason to pursue Arbery while armed and he had no reason to stop because they demanded that he do so.

We won't get any progress if after every shooting fuckup, white idiot or not is automatically labeled as blood thirsty racist and black no matter how stupid or criminal is automatically labeled as perfect human being. You only make these rednecks legitimately angry, isolated and mistrusting you when you do that.

Well, that’s cultural Marxism. Who, whom?

 

[laughing dog]

Mindreading is now one of those magical black people powers? He ‘knew’ why a couple of white men with firearms were chasing him? Well I suppose he did realize his life was in danger. But please do not pretend that they owned the property under construction or had access to video surveillance or were hired to provide security for the property. At the very most, one could say honestly that Arbery was trespassing as doubtless others had been tresspasing in that property under construction had been trespassing and as someone—although not Arbery, had stolen unsecured tools from the property. We know it was t Arbery as he had no stolen property on him and the video does not show him taking anything.

The McMicaels had no legitimate reason to pursue Arbery while armed and he had no reason to stop because they demanded that he do so.

We won't get any progress if after every shooting fuckup, white idiot or not is automatically labeled as blood thirsty racist and black no matter how stupid or criminal is automatically labeled as perfect human being. You only make these rednecks legitimately angry, isolated and mistrusting you when you do that.

There will be no progress if they are not called to account for their actions. And when people make idiotic assumptions about the victim "damn well knew", that makes progress even less possible because it validates the shooter and blames the victim.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, he's a black man, alone, on a street in southeast Georgia and two armed white guys in a pickup......let's blame the black man for this one.

Well, I mean, he should have known that he would be killed if he dared to go jogging on a street in southeast Georgia. What other possible outcome could there have been?

The video before hand showed that he was walking to the house, not jogging.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Yeah, he's a black man, alone, on a street in southeast Georgia and two armed white guys in a pickup......let's blame the black man for this one.

Well, I mean, he should have known that he would be killed if he dared to go jogging on a street in southeast Georgia. What other possible outcome could there have been?

The video before hand showed that he was walking to the house, not jogging.

Again, you have no idea what he was doing before he entered the frame. For all you know, he had been jogging for twenty minutes or twenty hours before he started walking.

 

[Toni]

Mindreading is now one of those magical black people powers? He ‘knew’ why a couple of white men with firearms were chasing him? Well I suppose he did realize his life was in danger. But please do not pretend that they owned the property under construction or had access to video surveillance or were hired to provide security for the property. At the very most, one could say honestly that Arbery was trespassing as doubtless others had been tresspasing in that property under construction had been trespassing and as someone—although not Arbery, had stolen unsecured tools from the property. We know it was t Arbery as he had no stolen property on him and the video does not show him taking anything.

The McMicaels had no legitimate reason to pursue Arbery while armed and he had no reason to stop because they demanded that he do so.

We won't get any progress if after every shooting fuckup, white idiot or not is automatically labeled as blood thirsty racist and black no matter how stupid or criminal is automatically labeled as perfect human being. You only make these rednecks legitimately angry, isolated and mistrusting you when you do that.

I haven’t done any of that. I’ve pointed out the truth of the situation.

The way to deal with giant babies with guns who think having guns makes them grown men and right about anything is not to shut up.

 

[Derec]

Not unless the video showed them what was happening right at that moment, they could clearly see the person committing the crime, and they gave chase to that person immediately.
If the video was of an alleged burglary that happened days or weeks before, then it doesn't justify their pursuit. If they couldn't clearly see Arbery, then it doesn't justify anything the McMichaels did.

Not under my reading of the statute. Presumably also not how at least one prosecutor read the statute either.

I am not saying it was a lynching. I am saying you are making the case that it was. And I pointed out some of the things you are saying that imply it - that the McMichaels felt suspicion, hostility, and anger that Arbery,was in their neighborhood, that they desired to take matters into their own hands, and that they meant to threaten, intimidate, and assault him with a shotgun.

And you would be wrong there. Calling the police, and then trying to detain somebody you suspect of a crime is the opposite of a lynching.

If you don't want to convince people it was a lynching then don't imply the McMichaels felt justified in committing aggravated assault on a black guy they didn't like seeing around the place.

If they felt justified then they did not believe they were committing any assault, much less aggravated.

We need to see the police report of what McMichael said to the responding officer. And about that surveillance video, was there more than one camera on more than one property? The owner of the house under construction tells a very different story from the one that's been circulating:

YES, this. Obviously we have a small fraction of everything that is to know there. If McMichael lied about the burglaries, then he is dead to rights of course. But I have not seen any evidence that is so.

Larry English, the man who owns the house under construction, told The Washington Post that the structure was not robbed.

“That’s completely wrong. I’ve never had a police report or anything stolen from my property, or any kind of robbery,” he said.

Interesting, but of course, it may have been a different house. After all, why would he have entered the house that he already stole from.

Witnessing a crime or have immediate knowledge of one is a necessary component of making a citizen's arrest. If they didn't have that, then what they did wasn't lawful under Georgia's statutes.

Not necessarily. My undertsanding is that if the offense is a felony a reasonable suspicion suffices.

Nor could they have made a citizen's arrest for burglary because they didn't witness or have immediate knowledge of one.

Not what the plain reading of the text of the law indicates.

The plain reading is that a citizen must be a witness to a crime or have immediate knowledge of a crime in order to effect a citizen's arrest. The McMichaels' had neither.

I linked to the statute. It's very brief.

And I read both sentences.

The conditions under which a private person can arrest someone is if they witness or have immediate knowledge of a crime; the "upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion" part explains the grounds for arrest when the conditions are met.

That is your interpretation. My interpretation is that if the offence is a felony, the conditions are broader.

As I'm sure you know by now, Waycross Judicial Circuit District Attorney George Barnhill eventually recused himself because his son is an assistant district attorney in the Brunswick circuit and had worked with Greg McMichael on a case involving Arbery. Barnhill should have recused himself the moment he realized his own connection to the suspects and the victim, but instead he wrote a letter that was so sketchy the DOJ is reviewing it.

Doesn't in itself mean he was lying about the interpretation of the law.

 

[Emily Lake]

And again, if Arbery was a burglar, than the pursuit was likely legal.

No, it still wouldn't have been. By their own statements, the McMichaelses did not observe him in the act of committing a felony. So end of story. Suspecting him of maybe being someone who committed a misdemeanor isn't remotely a justification for chasing him with two vehicles and aiming a shotgun at him.

 

[Emily Lake]

Remember, the real galling aspect of all this is they were never even going to be investigated in the first place if the video had never surfaced.

Exactly.