Fuck unity

[Angry Floof]

Considering the depth and breadth of fascist disease in our country, I damn well HOPE there is division about human rights, human lives, and ordinary decency.

What fucking abuser kind of thinking it is to abuse someone and then tell them it's on them to be nice about it?

We're being gaslighted with this "unity" shit. NO, decent human beings of humane principles and values are most certainly NOT aligned with people who want to kill us off, imprison us, execute us, drive us out of the country. NO. What kind of shitty, unaware asshole thinks that's an option? The Edward VIIIs among us, mostly unaware morons but plenty of outright hateful, evil shits in the mix. NO. Stand up to that shit or be complicit.

 

[Shadowy Man]

As for Trump supporters: “some, I assume, are good people.”

 

[Angry Floof]

Looking at the election that just happened it looks like you're playing a game of inches to me - painting the entire conservative base in the same light doesn't seem helpful. Yes, there are probably many that are beyond reach, but not all.

Who, exactly, gave an inch? And to whom?

A lot of people want to blame anyone but fascists themselves for fascism. I guess in this case the Democrats are the adults in the room and people who don't have the spine to stand up to bullies would rather just complain that the rest of us failed to control right wingers, as if we are culpable for others' actions, but some are not even culpable for their own.

The implied analogy of right wing fascists to delicate mental patients or toddlers does have some truth to it, but the fact is that the GOP and Trump and every single right wing voter IS AN ADULT in actuality and responsible for their own actions. No one else is responsible for their stupidity, immaturity, and lack of ordinary human empathy.

 

[Politesse]

How it goes:

"I fundamentally do not see you as a fellow human being deserving of basic human rights."

"Yes, but don't you want to... unify with me? I'll give up half my rights in advance, just to sweeten the deal."

"Thanks, but I want all of them."

"Okay, fine, all of them. Are we friends now?"

"No."

"But I gave up all my rights!"

"Sucks to be you, loser."​

 

[Keith&Co.]

As for Trump supporters: “some, I assume, are good people.”

Well, it is what it is. And i wish thdm well.
I'm just never letting Uncle Dipshit claim he never supported Trump. Like 50 years ago, when he was suddenly NOT a Nixonian, never had been.

 

[ronburgundy]

Fair, but if your goal is to minimize their impact then insulting them day after day for the next four years won't help. This kind of divisiveness is exactly why your Conservatives are becoming increasingly entrenched in their Conservatism - liberals look like an alien group of elites who are constantly calling them morons.

Why would they change their minds, when the group they'd be supporting constantly others them?

Othering is the very foundation of American conservatism and the Trump base. Bigotry and anti-intellectualism has defined that ideology for well over a century. All that has changed is that the Civil Rights movement, GOP's Southern Strategy, and Christian Right movement all lead to a realignment where those with that ideology became more and more concentrated under one party. It's utter nonsense to suggest the causality is reversed and that their intolerant bigotries are a reaction to being "othered", or that their anti-intellectualism is a reaction to being insulted by "elites". They attacked "the elites" from the start and 99% of the vitriol comes from their direction. I'm not advocating that we waste time calling them names. I'm saying we shouldn't give a shit about appeasing them or if they are angry and opposed to what Biden does. As they proved yet again this week, they are only happy when others are disenfranchised and harmed, so any society worth fighting for is one they will fight against. Thus, we shouldn't pretend we are on the same side with the same values and goals. We most definitely are not and they pose the greatest obstacles to what our goals should be.

Sure, I can accept all that. My point is that your behaviour needs to actually lead to the betterment of your country, and not more fracture. Pushing too hard to the left probably won't accomplish that. Insults won't accomplish that.

The Dems having been pushing to the center for decades, while the GOP has gone more and more to the extreme right. Obama was closer to Reagan than Trump was, yet the right's response was racist attacks and dishonest fear mongering to fuel more extremism. Almost everything Obama did including ACA was a compromise with the right that did not adhere to the liberal principles his base elected him to enact. This proves that Dems efforts at unity and compromise does nothing to quell the fracture being driven by right, so pulling back to the left is the only recourse. Note that doesn't mean socialism, b/c contrary to the lies of the right, nothing on the DNC agenda is socialism, and the majority of those who voted Biden do not want actual socialism, even those who say they do b/c they share the same wrong notions as the right that the very much capitalist countries of Scandanavia and Europe are socialist just b/c they have regulations and a strong safety net.

Trump and the right consistently prove that they are insulted by objective reality, so it isn't possible to be honest and rational without them feeling "attacked". Our goal should not be to insult them, but should also not be to avoid claimed insult by avoiding reality.

 

[ronburgundy]

Sometimes my actions (punching nazis), have negative immediate consequences towards my goals (peaceful coexistence between persons).

Overall, however, the immediate negative consequences (a fight!) do not stand in violation of my principles, as removing an irritant, however irritating the act itself may be, is generally preferable, much like lancing a boil or painful blemish.

This is more of that "paradox of tolerance" bullshit wherein some bad faith asshole enjoins us to tolerate the intolerant, failing to understand that when someone is intolerant, they have abandoned the principles that are the basis for protection of the system.

I don't think it's so much tolerating them that's important, it's behaving in ways that don't make the situation even worse than it was before. Whatever that may be.

If them being upset is "making it worse" than merely acting ethically and acknowledging scientific reality will "make it worse". We should behave in ways that are rational and ethical, without regard for how that makes them feel. I'm not advocating disunity as an objective, I'm rejecting that unity with Trump supporters should be a goal that has any impact on what we should say or do. The unity we should seek is with everyone in the US and around the world who share secular post-enlightenment values.

Yes, there are probably many that are beyond reach, but not all.

Fine. For any that are not beyond reach we don't need to worry about insulting them simply by pursuing and applying rational knowledge and ethical policy. If they wish to unify with efforts to undo the countless harms that Trump has done, push back against the objectively rising tide of white supremacy in the GOP base and that defines the Alt-right, and to pursue human decency and rational policy of the sorts that the DNC have laid out in their platform, then great, welcome aboard.

 

[Swammerdami]

With my intellect, I think rousseau is correct. It may be very difficult for the human politicians to get useful compromise from the criminals, bigots and traitors, but they need to make an effort. Maybe Biden will be able to thread that needle. If he can, we should all applaud. Otherwise the U.S.A. is on a rapid road to perdition.

But I could never be a politician in today's America: too often my emotion overpowers my intellect. I just watched Borat buy a chocolate cake on which the baker happily inscribed "Jews will not replace us." Listening to Trump supporters — or most Republicans — makes me want to vomit. It is painful to realize that many millions of Americans are disgusting sub-humans filled with hatred, who condone every lie, crime and treason. It's horrid to admit, but I have more respect for mass murderers like Osama bin Laden — a man of sincere religious principle — than I have for the hate-filled but cowardly morons who voted for Donald Trump.

Once I had great respect for humanoid Republicans like Mitt Romney. But he condones the hatred and crimes with his silence. In another thread we see Facebook smears of Joe Biden based on Photoshopped fictions. Romney should spend his own money to denounce those lies on cable TV; he should resign from the GOP and join the Democratic Party. Until he does, I will just consider him to be another lying hate-filled traitor. "Ride with outlaws, you hang with outlaws."

There was an excuse in 2016: Trump wasn't well-understood then, and there was some hope, based on his history, that he would seek support from the Democrats. Obviously those hopes were long-gone by 2020, yet Trump got millions more votes in 2020 than he got in 2016!

I will concede one point: Millions of the hate-filled morons are not quite as bad as they seem; they've just been infected by the lies of Sean Hannity et al. But our lovable dogs who get bitten by a rabid dog get rabies also, and need to be put down. It's scary to say so, but angels smile whenever a Republican passes away.

Emotionally it is hard for me to treat Trump voters as deserving to be called "human." But intellectually, I know that Biden and other leaders have to find a path forward. Rousseau is right. Germans turned away from their hatreds 75 years ago; perhaps Americans can do the same.

painting the entire conservative base in the same light doesn't seem helpful.

So, should adjust the message? "Only SOME of you are bigoted murderous Nazis, but, sure the rest of you just STAND SHOULDER TO FUCKING SHOULDER WITH THEM AND ARE COMPLICT. But probably very fine people when you're not busy supporting fascism, parroting lies, and defending treason."

As someone put it, the Germans have a word for those people who did not hate Jews, nor want to rule the world, but joined the Nazi Party out of either hopes for patriotism or perhaps simple economic restoration.


The word is Nazi.

 

[Jarhyn]

With my intellect, I think rousseau is correct. It may be very difficult for the human politicians to get useful compromise from the criminals, bigots and traitors, but they need to make an effort. Maybe Biden will be able to thread that needle. If he can, we should all applaud. Otherwise the U.S.A. is on a rapid road to perdition.

But I could never be a politician in today's America: too often my emotion overpowers my intellect. I just watched Borat buy a chocolate cake on which the baker happily inscribed "Jews will not replace us." Listening to Trump supporters — or most Republicans — makes me want to vomit. It is painful to realize that many millions of Americans are disgusting sub-humans filled with hatred, who condone every lie, crime and treason. It's horrid to admit, but I have more respect for mass murderers like Osama bin Laden — a man of sincere religious principle — than I have for the hate-filled but cowardly morons who voted for Donald Trump.

Once I had great respect for humanoid Republicans like Mitt Romney. But he condones the hatred and crimes with his silence. In another thread we see Facebook smears of Joe Biden based on Photoshopped fictions. Romney should spend his own money to denounce those lies on cable TV; he should resign from the GOP and join the Democratic Party. Until he does, I will just consider him another lying hate-filled traitor. "Ride with outlaws, you hang with outlaws."

There was an excuse in 2016: Trump wasn't well-understood then, and there was some hope, based on his history, that he would seek support from the Democrats. Obviously those hopes were long-gone by 2020, yet Trump got millions more votes in 2020 than he got in 2016!

I will concede one point: Millions of the hate-filled morons are not quite as bad as they seem; they've just been infected by the lies of Sean Hannity et al. But our lovable dogs who get bitten by a rabid dog get rabies also, and need to be put down. It's scary to say so, but angels smile whenever a Republican dies.

Emotionally it is hard for me to treat Trump voters as deserving to be called "human." But intellectually, I know that Biden and other leaders have to find a path forward. Rousseau is right. Germans turned away from their hatreds 75 years ago; perhaps Americans can do the same.

painting the entire conservative base in the same light doesn't seem helpful.

So, should adjust the message? "Only SOME of you are bigoted murderous Nazis, but, sure the rest of you just STAND SHOULDER TO FUCKING SHOULDER WITH THEM AND ARE COMPLICT. But probably very fine people when you're not busy supporting fascism, parroting lies, and defending treason."

As someone put it, the Germans have a word for those people who did not hate Jews, nor want to rule the world, but joined the Nazi Party out of either hopes for patriotism or perhaps simple economic restoration.


The word is Nazi.

Yeah, but none of those unaware fucks will ever have the temerity to say "yes, I was a Nazi, and I was wrong for it."

None of them will own their views. The condition for unity is should always be to first, own yourself and your past actions. Only when we own the fulcrum of the past can we leverage it into a better future.

Germans turned away from their hatred 75 years ago, but they also stood and admitted it was there. Now, tRumpsuckers are not turning away. They are pretending instead that it wasn't, that it isn't still there, and that we are insane for saying we ever even saw it the first time, waiting for our backs to be turned so they can bust it out again.

 

[Angry Floof]

With my intellect, I think rousseau is correct. It may be very difficult for the human politicians to get useful compromise from the criminals, bigots and traitors, but they need to make an effort. Maybe Biden will be able to thread that needle. If he can, we should all applaud. Otherwise the U.S.A. is on a rapid road to perdition.

But I could never be a politician in today's America: too often my emotion overpowers my intellect. I just watched Borat buy a chocolate cake on which the baker happily inscribed "Jews will not replace us." Listening to Trump supporters — or most Republicans — makes me want to vomit. It is painful to realize that many millions of Americans are disgusting sub-humans filled with hatred, who condone every lie, crime and treason. It's horrid to admit, but I have more respect for mass murderers like Osama bin Laden — a man of sincere religious principle — than I have for the hate-filled but cowardly morons who voted for Donald Trump.

Once I had great respect for humanoid Republicans like Mitt Romney. But he condones the hatred and crimes with his silence. In another thread we see Facebook smears of Joe Biden based on Photoshopped fictions. Romney should spend his own money to denounce those lies on cable TV; he should resign from the GOP and join the Democratic Party. Until he does, I will just consider him another lying hate-filled traitor. "Ride with outlaws, you hang with outlaws."

There was an excuse in 2016: Trump wasn't well-understood then, and there was some hope, based on his history, that he would seek support from the Democrats. Obviously those hopes were long-gone by 2020, yet Trump got millions more votes in 2020 than he got in 2016!

I will concede one point: Millions of the hate-filled morons are not quite as bad as they seem; they've just been infected by the lies of Sean Hannity et al. But our lovable dogs who get bitten by a rabid dog get rabies also, and need to be put down. It's scary to say so, but angels smile whenever a Republican dies.

Emotionally it is hard for me to treat Trump voters as deserving to be called "human." But intellectually, I know that Biden and other leaders have to find a path forward. Rousseau is right. Germans turned away from their hatreds 75 years ago; perhaps Americans can do the same.

Yeah, but none of those unaware fucks will ever have the temerity to say "yes, I was a Nazi, and I was wrong for it."

None of them will own their views. The condition for unity is should always be to first, own yourself and your past actions. Only when we own the fulcrum of the past can we leverage it into a better future.

Germans turned away from their hatred 75 years ago, but they also stood and admitted it was there. Now, tRumpsuckers are not turning away. They are pretending instead that it wasn't, that it isn't still there, and that we are insane for saying we ever even saw it the first time, waiting for our backs to be turned so they can bust it out again.

This. Well said, Jarhyn.

 

[Politesse]

I should say: I do not think that all Republicans are "bad people" who to a man want every one not like them to die or be reduced to menial servitude. But if they support politicians who do, what good do their fundamentally beautiful souls do for those of us who stand to be the targets of their regime?

 

[Angry Floof]

I should say: I do not think that all Republicans are "bad people" who to a man want every one not like them to die or be reduced to menial servitude. But if they support politicians who do, what good do their fundamentally beautiful souls do for those of us who stand to be the targets of their regime?

Exactly. No matter how good they might be to people inside their personal bubble, their net effect on the world is hatred and evil.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But intellectually, I know that Biden and other leaders have to find a path forward. Rousseau is right.

Then tell me how?
Compromise is impossible.
Tolerance is unfeasible.
They won't stand for an appeal to facts.
They're HOPING for martyrdom.

Can't just tell us all 'that's not gonna work' unless there's a hint that something might work. I really don't think anything can. Not externally, anyway.

Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator, has been in Trump's camp since 2015. Trump lost his vote a short time ago. Not because any Dilbert fan wrote scathing letters, or heartfelt appeals, or made a desth threat.
In the debate, Trump refused to deny white supremacy. That was Scott's line-too-far. That one action, Scott felt betrayed. But said that if Trump would 'fix that,' he'd vote for him again. To me, it's not a mistake. This is what Trump IS. But to Scott, Trump's just barely intolerable, which can be corrected.


But that's the only thing that'll work. Someone has to notice that they're standing in the same circle with people they cannot stand, and seek an exit. Us saying, 'you're scum' or 'you're basically good people' won't matter a damn.

 

[Elixir]

Now, tRumpsuckers are not turning away. They are pretending instead that it wasn't, that it isn't still there, and that we are insane for saying we ever even saw it the first time, waiting for our backs to be turned so they can bust it out again.

It's early yet. Remember, when Germans admitted their error Hitler was dead, their cities were in ruins and they were starving.

 

[laughing dog]

Not all Trump supporters are "Fuck your feelings". And, like it or not, lasting social change requires that a significant part of the "red" USA buys in. It would not hurt to try to find some common ground with a significant part of the red areas. I cannot speak for rousseau, but I am not arguing for some sort of moral choice but an expedient one.

 

[Angry Floof]

Now, tRumpsuckers are not turning away. They are pretending instead that it wasn't, that it isn't still there, and that we are insane for saying we ever even saw it the first time, waiting for our backs to be turned so they can bust it out again.

It's early yet. Remember, when Germans admitted their error Hitler was dead, their cities were in ruins and they were starving.

But what it took was major atrocity and losing a war where almost the entire world ganged up to defeat you.

 

[TSwizzle]

Nazis, fascists, Russians and other invisible boogeymen for the obsessives to flail at. Sterling work agent Ron.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not all Trump supporters are "Fuck your feelings".

Sure. Some are parents and would never lock a child in a cage and let it die from neglect.
But, that said, they just voted for the man that will do that, knowing he will do that, and knowing no one will hold him more accountable than a headline about it.

So, really, what can we expect from them if we want to accomplish change? Apathy may be our best hope.

 

[rousseau]

But intellectually, I know that Biden and other leaders have to find a path forward. Rousseau is right.

Then tell me how?
Compromise is impossible.
Tolerance is unfeasible.
They won't stand for an appeal to facts.
They're HOPING for martyrdom.

Can't just tell us all 'that's not gonna work' unless there's a hint that something might work. I really don't think anything can. Not externally, anyway.

Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator, has been in Trump's camp since 2015. Trump lost his vote a short time ago. Not because any Dilbert fan wrote scathing letters, or heartfelt appeals, or made a desth threat.
In the debate, Trump refused to deny white supremacy. That was Scott's line-too-far. That one action, Scott felt betrayed. But said that if Trump would 'fix that,' he'd vote for him again. To me, it's not a mistake. This is what Trump IS. But to Scott, Trump's just barely intolerable, which can be corrected.


But that's the only thing that'll work. Someone has to notice that they're standing in the same circle with people they cannot stand, and seek an exit. Us saying, 'you're scum' or 'you're basically good people' won't matter a damn.

I don't think you need to convince 47 million people to be someone who they're not, you just need to win a few elections.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

But intellectually, I know that Biden and other leaders have to find a path forward. Rousseau is right.

Then tell me how?
Compromise is impossible.
Tolerance is unfeasible.
They won't stand for an appeal to facts.
They're HOPING for martyrdom.

Can't just tell us all 'that's not gonna work' unless there's a hint that something might work. I really don't think anything can. Not externally, anyway.

Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator, has been in Trump's camp since 2015. Trump lost his vote a short time ago. Not because any Dilbert fan wrote scathing letters, or heartfelt appeals, or made a desth threat.
In the debate, Trump refused to deny white supremacy. That was Scott's line-too-far. That one action, Scott felt betrayed. But said that if Trump would 'fix that,' he'd vote for him again. To me, it's not a mistake. This is what Trump IS. But to Scott, Trump's just barely intolerable, which can be corrected.


But that's the only thing that'll work. Someone has to notice that they're standing in the same circle with people they cannot stand, and seek an exit. Us saying, 'you're scum' or 'you're basically good people' won't matter a damn.

I don't think you need to convince 47 million people to be someone who they're not, you just need to win a few elections.

We can do that if there's no more Electoral College. Trump won because of the Electoral College.