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January 6 Hearings Live

Close.

The last thing they will try is that when approving in the House of the election that it should not be a vote by individual congress person but by state. That is the last advantage they have and so they will try to use it.

Fortunately, that's not correct. If there's an objection by at least one House member and one Senator, then and only then, there will be a debate but for no more than 2 hours. Then both houses have to vote separately on whether to accept the votes or not. But it's a straight vote. Not by state. It only becomes a state by state vote if they are deciding who gets to be President, that is if the results of the E.C. are actually thrown out first. Then the house and only the house votes by state as to who should be President. But prior to that both the house and senate must agree to throw out the votes of the EC. And if by some chance they did do that, it would only go to the house if it was a tie in the electoral college. They could technically throw out enough votes to make Trump the winner. It would cause a riot if they did, but fortunately the dems control the house and it won't happen.

Today a Michigan Republican representative left the party. He became an independent. Wonder if more would buck the system to preserve the constitution.
Well, Mitch McConnell seems to have thrown down the gauntlet against playing further games regarding the election. It is hard to imagine very many Repug Senators going against him...the last wall in Clownstick's BS game is falling down early...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-le...-republicans-to-not-protest-election-results/
One source said that on a call with Republican senators, McConnell, Senate Majority Whip John Thune and Senate Republican Conference Vice Chairman Senator Roy Blunt urged them not to object to the election results during the joint session. McConnell said it would be a "terrible vote" for the caucus because opposing an objection to the results would create the appearance of voting against President Trump, the source said.
 
Well, Mitch McConnell seems to have thrown down the gauntlet against playing further games regarding the election. It is hard to imagine very many Repug Senators going against him...the last wall in Clownstick's BS game is falling down early...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-le...-republicans-to-not-protest-election-results/
One source said that on a call with Republican senators, McConnell, Senate Majority Whip John Thune and Senate Republican Conference Vice Chairman Senator Roy Blunt urged them not to object to the election results during the joint session. McConnell said it would be a "terrible vote" for the caucus because opposing an objection to the results would create the appearance of voting against President Trump, the source said.

giphy.gif
 
If you're still wondering what the Kraken is supposed to be, turns out it was within us all along.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/HowardMortman/status/1337939343646871552?s=20[/TWEET]
And it's a discount code for pillows. Seems so obvious now.
 
Well, Mitch McConnell seems to have thrown down the gauntlet against playing further games regarding the election. It is hard to imagine very many Repug Senators going against him...the last wall in Clownstick's BS game is falling down early...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-le...-republicans-to-not-protest-election-results/
One source said that on a call with Republican senators, McConnell, Senate Majority Whip John Thune and Senate Republican Conference Vice Chairman Senator Roy Blunt urged them not to object to the election results during the joint session. McConnell said it would be a "terrible vote" for the caucus because opposing an objection to the results would create the appearance of voting against President Trump, the source said.

View attachment 30816
Jebus Christ! These spineless weasels.
 
Pence to fly overseas after the January 6th vote-counting session:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/pen...fter-declaring-biden-presidential-victor.html

Vice President Mike Pence is set to travel overseas for the first time during the Covid pandemic just hours after presiding over the congressional session in which Joe Biden will be declared the winner in the presidential election.
Pence will depart on Jan. 6 for a trip that will include stops in Bahrain, Israel and Poland, according to a government document obtained by NBC News, and remain abroad through Jan. 11.
Hmm. Seems like a weird coincidence that the trip is scheduled just two hours after the session to count the electoral votes. This means, that if the counting is delayed or there is debate, Pence will have to leave early. I suppose in theory then the session would be presided over by the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassley. But what if this is an excuse to cut the session early and move the election to the congress?
 
Pence to fly overseas after the January 6th vote-counting session:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/pen...fter-declaring-biden-presidential-victor.html

Vice President Mike Pence is set to travel overseas for the first time during the Covid pandemic just hours after presiding over the congressional session in which Joe Biden will be declared the winner in the presidential election.
Pence will depart on Jan. 6 for a trip that will include stops in Bahrain, Israel and Poland, according to a government document obtained by NBC News, and remain abroad through Jan. 11.
Hmm. Seems like a weird coincidence that the trip is scheduled just two hours after the session to count the electoral votes. This means, that if the counting is delayed or there is debate, Pence will have to leave early. I suppose in theory then the session would be presided over by the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassley. But what if this is an excuse to cut the session early and move the election to the congress?

They can’t just do that. They can’t unilaterally decide to ignore the electoral votes. Their can be challenges to a state’s count, but those have to be debated and voted on by both houses. Only if both houses agree AE the votes tossed. Not likely to happen. A lot of repubs won’t do that. Of course this is a perceived loyalty test. That’s the real reason for the vote.
 
Pence to fly overseas after the January 6th vote-counting session:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/pen...fter-declaring-biden-presidential-victor.html

Vice President Mike Pence is set to travel overseas for the first time during the Covid pandemic just hours after presiding over the congressional session in which Joe Biden will be declared the winner in the presidential election.
Pence will depart on Jan. 6 for a trip that will include stops in Bahrain, Israel and Poland, according to a government document obtained by NBC News, and remain abroad through Jan. 11.
Hmm. Seems like a weird coincidence that the trip is scheduled just two hours after the session to count the electoral votes. This means, that if the counting is delayed or there is debate, Pence will have to leave early. I suppose in theory then the session would be presided over by the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassley. But what if this is an excuse to cut the session early and move the election to the congress?
While only the VP, the plane will still wait for Pence.

There are many theories on this trip, with the simplest one indicating that Pence wants as many miles between him and Trump as possible to technically keep his 2024 hopes alive. Granetd, I think Pence has as much chance as Quayle had in 1996.
 
Pence to fly overseas after the January 6th vote-counting session:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/pen...fter-declaring-biden-presidential-victor.html

Vice President Mike Pence is set to travel overseas for the first time during the Covid pandemic just hours after presiding over the congressional session in which Joe Biden will be declared the winner in the presidential election.
Pence will depart on Jan. 6 for a trip that will include stops in Bahrain, Israel and Poland, according to a government document obtained by NBC News, and remain abroad through Jan. 11.
Hmm. Seems like a weird coincidence that the trip is scheduled just two hours after the session to count the electoral votes. This means, that if the counting is delayed or there is debate, Pence will have to leave early. I suppose in theory then the session would be presided over by the president pro tempore of the Senate, Chuck Grassley. But what if this is an excuse to cut the session early and move the election to the congress?
While only the VP, the plane will still wait for Pence.

There are many theories on this trip, with the simplest one indicating that Pence wants as many miles between him and Trump as possible to technically keep his 2024 hopes alive. Granetd, I think Pence has as much chance as Quayle had in 1996.

Or it could be an excuse not to preside over the session, and hence not having to declare Trump a loser. Which might be the simpler explanation by Occam's Razor than my earlier conspiracy theory.
 
When does this rise to the level of treason?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/poli...eeting-special-counsel-martial-law/index.html

(CNN)President Donald Trump convened a heated meeting in the Oval Office on Friday, including lawyer Sidney Powell and her client, former national security adviser Michael Flynn, two people familiar with the matter said, describing a session that began as an impromptu gathering but devolved and eventually broke out into screaming matches at certain points as some of Trump's aides pushed back on Powell and Flynn's more outrageous suggestions about overturning the election.

Flynn had suggested earlier this week that Trump could invoke martial law as part of his efforts to overturn the election that he lost to President-elect Joe Biden -- an idea that arose again during the meeting in the Oval Office, one of the people said. It wasn't clear whether Trump endorsed the idea, but others in the room forcefully pushed back and shot it down.
 
Just been reading that report. Forbes is also reporting that the Resident asked about it earlier. This is insane. It really is getting ugly. The motherfucker really is thinking of crossing that Rubicon. And many repubs support this insanity. Especially here in Alabama.
 
When does this rise to the level of treason?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/poli...eeting-special-counsel-martial-law/index.html

(CNN)President Donald Trump convened a heated meeting in the Oval Office on Friday, including lawyer Sidney Powell and her client, former national security adviser Michael Flynn, two people familiar with the matter said, describing a session that began as an impromptu gathering but devolved and eventually broke out into screaming matches at certain points as some of Trump's aides pushed back on Powell and Flynn's more outrageous suggestions about overturning the election.

Flynn had suggested earlier this week that Trump could invoke martial law as part of his efforts to overturn the election that he lost to President-elect Joe Biden -- an idea that arose again during the meeting in the Oval Office, one of the people said. It wasn't clear whether Trump endorsed the idea, but others in the room forcefully pushed back and shot it down.
...are-you-not-entertained.jpg
 
Ah the Flynn/Trump/Powell plan with no basis, no support, no legitimacy. The voting machine company has warned Lawyer Sidney Powell to keep all records she and her people have concerning voting machines in preparation for suing her. Military members Trump's staff have said the military has no part to play in US elections.

From Trump suggested naming Sidney Powell as special counsel on election in Oval Office meeting, reports say https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-counsel-michael-flynn-matial-law/3978054001/


[FONT=&quot]Most of the advisers at the White House meeting, which included Powell, were opposed to the ideas. According to the Times, among those objecting to the suggestion of Powell as special counsel were Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani – who joined by phone – White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and chief of staff Mark Meadows.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In response to Flynn’s calls to invoke martial law, Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy and Chief of Staff Gen. James McConville issued a joint statement saying there "is no role for the U.S. military in determining the outcome of an American election."[/FONT]


Or as Dewey wrote "saw ship, sank same."
 
Bertrand Russell's book "Unpopular Essays" contains an essay, "Ideas that have Helped Mankind"

In addition to religious freedom, free press, free speech, and freedom from arbitrary arrest came to be taken for granted during the nineteenth century, at least among the Western democracies. But their hold on men's minds was much more precarious than was at the time supposed, and now, over the greater part of the earth's surface, nothing remains of them, either in practice or in theory. Stalin could neither understand nor respect the point of view which led Churchill to allow himself to be peaceably dispossessed as a result of a popular vote. I am a firm believer in democratic representative government as the best form for those who have the tolerance and self-restraint that is required to make it workable. But its advocates make a mistake if they suppose that it can be at once introduced into countries where the average citizen has hitherto lacked all training in the give-and-take that it requires. In a Balkan country, not so many years ago, a party which had been beaten by a narrow margin in a general election retrieved its fortunes by shooting a sufficient number of the representatives of the other side to give it a majority. People in the West thought this characteristic of the Balkans, forgetting that Cromwell and Robespierre had acted likewise.
That reminds me of Trump refusing to concede defeat.

His essay was likely written between the two World Wars, as judged by "Government can easily exist without law, but law cannot exist without government – a fact which was forgotten by those who framed the League of Nations and the Kellogg Pact."

The League of Nations was the predecessor of the United Nations. It was formed at the end of the Great War, as WWI was then known. The Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928 was meant to outlaw war, but it had no enforcement mechanism other than outraged public opinion.

As a side note, I like what BR said about law and government. It makes many libertarians' blather about law seem very hollow. I remember one who endlessly blathered about "common law" while bellyaching about government.
 
Bertrand Russell's book "Unpopular Essays" contains an essay, "Ideas that have Helped Mankind"

In addition to religious freedom, free press, free speech, and freedom from arbitrary arrest came to be taken for granted during the nineteenth century, at least among the Western democracies. But their hold on men's minds was much more precarious than was at the time supposed, and now, over the greater part of the earth's surface, nothing remains of them, either in practice or in theory. Stalin could neither understand nor respect the point of view which led Churchill to allow himself to be peaceably dispossessed as a result of a popular vote. I am a firm believer in democratic representative government as the best form for those who have the tolerance and self-restraint that is required to make it workable. But its advocates make a mistake if they suppose that it can be at once introduced into countries where the average citizen has hitherto lacked all training in the give-and-take that it requires. In a Balkan country, not so many years ago, a party which had been beaten by a narrow margin in a general election retrieved its fortunes by shooting a sufficient number of the representatives of the other side to give it a majority. People in the West thought this characteristic of the Balkans, forgetting that Cromwell and Robespierre had acted likewise.
That reminds me of Trump refusing to concede defeat.

His essay was likely written between the two World Wars, as judged by "Government can easily exist without law, but law cannot exist without government – a fact which was forgotten by those who framed the League of Nations and the Kellogg Pact."

The League of Nations was the predecessor of the United Nations. It was formed at the end of the Great War, as WWI was then known. The Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928 was meant to outlaw war, but it had no enforcement mechanism other than outraged public opinion.

As a side note, I like what BR said about law and government. It makes many libertarians' blather about law seem very hollow. I remember one who endlessly blathered about "common law" while bellyaching about government.

As I've said many times, Trump and his cult do not actually know what democracy means or why it's important to every single citizen, nor do they care.
 
Bertrand Russell's book "Unpopular Essays" contains an essay, "Ideas that have Helped Mankind"

In addition to religious freedom, free press, free speech, and freedom from arbitrary arrest came to be taken for granted during the nineteenth century, at least among the Western democracies. But their hold on men's minds was much more precarious than was at the time supposed, and now, over the greater part of the earth's surface, nothing remains of them, either in practice or in theory. Stalin could neither understand nor respect the point of view which led Churchill to allow himself to be peaceably dispossessed as a result of a popular vote. I am a firm believer in democratic representative government as the best form for those who have the tolerance and self-restraint that is required to make it workable. But its advocates make a mistake if they suppose that it can be at once introduced into countries where the average citizen has hitherto lacked all training in the give-and-take that it requires. In a Balkan country, not so many years ago, a party which had been beaten by a narrow margin in a general election retrieved its fortunes by shooting a sufficient number of the representatives of the other side to give it a majority. People in the West thought this characteristic of the Balkans, forgetting that Cromwell and Robespierre had acted likewise.
That reminds me of Trump refusing to concede defeat.

His essay was likely written between the two World Wars, as judged by "Government can easily exist without law, but law cannot exist without government – a fact which was forgotten by those who framed the League of Nations and the Kellogg Pact."

The League of Nations was the predecessor of the United Nations. It was formed at the end of the Great War, as WWI was then known. The Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928 was meant to outlaw war, but it had no enforcement mechanism other than outraged public opinion.

As a side note, I like what BR said about law and government. It makes many libertarians' blather about law seem very hollow. I remember one who endlessly blathered about "common law" while bellyaching about government.

Excellent quote. I had never seen this essay. I would say it had be post WW-II because of the Churchill reference.

Also understand the difference between common law and government law. Common law is Judge made law, while government enacts statutes and regulations. That’s the libertarian complaint.
 
When does this rise to the level of treason?

If the opposing party was in control of Congress, holding meetings to discuss the forcible overthrow of a fair election would be treason.
If your party is in control though, it's just "considering options".
If by some stretch, Warnock and Ossof were to win, all hell will break loose in January. I'm stocking up on popcorn just in case.
 
When does this rise to the level of treason?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/poli...eeting-special-counsel-martial-law/index.html

(CNN)President Donald Trump convened a heated meeting in the Oval Office on Friday, including lawyer Sidney Powell and her client, former national security adviser Michael Flynn, two people familiar with the matter said, describing a session that began as an impromptu gathering but devolved and eventually broke out into screaming matches at certain points as some of Trump's aides pushed back on Powell and Flynn's more outrageous suggestions about overturning the election.

Flynn had suggested earlier this week that Trump could invoke martial law as part of his efforts to overturn the election that he lost to President-elect Joe Biden -- an idea that arose again during the meeting in the Oval Office, one of the people said. It wasn't clear whether Trump endorsed the idea, but others in the room forcefully pushed back and shot it down.

I'm going with now. Here's why.

Here's the Constitution on what treason is:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The first sentence has the form:
Treason consists of A or B.
A = "in levying War against them [the United States]"
B = "in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Here is my take on A:
An occupation by military to force them to overturn a legitimate election is an act of war against the persons. Doing so in several states so it effects the outcome of the whole election is an act of war against the United States.

The word "levy" itself does not even require occupation, but instead can minimally require preparation such as arming a National Guard and sending them orders for occupation. That itself would be levying war.

So, if Trump, followed through with the suggestion from Flynn by merely sending orders that would meet the criteria of A. Thus, it would in that case be Twitler committed treason and those persons with him by providing aid and comfort (B) such as Sydney Powell and Flynn would also be treasonous.

However, Trump did not follow through (yet?). So now, Flynn and Powell are probably guilty of conspiracy to commit treason, but no one is going to call them on this, save some people on the Internets, like us.

Here is my take on B:
As above, if Trump initiated an act of war against several states by sending in forces to redo an election which he lost, he'd be the Enemy, in this case a domestic enemy. Flynn and Powell would be adhering to his will to be an enemy and providing aid and comfort in the form of advise and presumably direction of underlings, if any.

However, if there is no martial law in those several states or no occupation to force a reelection, can we still call Trump an Enemy in the sense of the Constitution? If we could, it would appear that Flynn and Powell would be treasonous and so all we have left to prove is that Trump was an Enemy of the United States at the time of the meeting where a conspiracy to commit treason was discussed.

Is Trump an Enemy of the United States?

The short answer is yes.

The longer answer is that just like the framers had built up a list of grievances against King George in order to declare their independence, one could do the same against Trump. His negligence and abuse have resulted in hundreds of thousands dead. The complicated issue of being a terrible President distinguished from an Enemy of the United States probably always lingers in the background, which is why it may be important to also point out the following:

It's really Trump's undemocratic actions that make him an enemy of the Constitution and the United States. Since the election results have become clear, he's controlled a faction of undemocratic persons ordering them to fabricate evidence of fraud by his opponent. He's engaged in phone calls and communications to several states to try to convince them to overturn results in order to take illegitimate control of the future United States, ie. an attempted illegitimate coup d'etat of statesmen and propagandists. The victim is the people and the future United States administration as well as a military that would be controlled by someone who didn't win the democratic election.

What is more than that is he has prepared a paramilitary of brainwashed minions, both Qanon conspiracy theorists and Proud Boys, the latter of which he told to "Stand Back and Stand By." These are persons he knows are armed and willing to commit violence on his behalf. There is a distinction here: he did not tell them to Stand Down but instead to Stand By...i.e. to be used in the future, which means he has prepared an army for future war.

Even though I think we all know these are the reasons that Donald Trump is an Enemy of the United States, we also know it would not get anywhere in a court of law. There'd be too much difficulty in proving his connections to ordering things (versus, say, Steve Bannon). It would also come across as free speech as opposed to conspiracy to commit treason.

If and when something more material happens, the conclusion in a court of law could be different.
 
Excellent quote. I had never seen this essay. I would say it had be post WW-II because of the Churchill reference.
But not long after, because of its lack of mention of the United Nations.
Also understand the difference between common law and government law. Common law is Judge made law, while government enacts statutes and regulations. That’s the libertarian complaint.
So judges are not part of governments? There is also the question of enforcing judges' decisions.
 
I'm going with now. Here's why.

Here's the Constitution on what treason is:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The first sentence has the form:
Treason consists of A or B.
A = "in levying War against them [the United States]"
B = "in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Here is my take on A:
An occupation by military to force them to overturn a legitimate election is an act of war against the persons. Doing so in several states so it effects the outcome of the whole election is an act of war against the United States.

The word "levy" itself does not even require occupation, but instead can minimally require preparation such as arming a National Guard and sending them orders for occupation. That itself would be levying war.

So, if Trump, followed through with the suggestion from Flynn by merely sending orders that would meet the criteria of A. Thus, it would in that case be Twitler committed treason and those persons with him by providing aid and comfort (B) such as Sydney Powell and Flynn would also be treasonous.

However, Trump did not follow through (yet?). So now, Flynn and Powell are probably guilty of conspiracy to commit treason, but no one is going to call them on this, save some people on the Internets, like us.

Here is my take on B:
As above, if Trump initiated an act of war against several states by sending in forces to redo an election which he lost, he'd be the Enemy, in this case a domestic enemy. Flynn and Powell would be adhering to his will to be an enemy and providing aid and comfort in the form of advise and presumably direction of underlings, if any.

However, if there is no martial law in those several states or no occupation to force a reelection, can we still call Trump an Enemy in the sense of the Constitution? If we could, it would appear that Flynn and Powell would be treasonous and so all we have left to prove is that Trump was an Enemy of the United States at the time of the meeting where a conspiracy to commit treason was discussed.

Is Trump an Enemy of the United States?

The short answer is yes.

The longer answer is that just like the framers had built up a list of grievances against King George in order to declare their independence, one could do the same against Trump. His negligence and abuse have resulted in hundreds of thousands dead. The complicated issue of being a terrible President distinguished from an Enemy of the United States probably always lingers in the background, which is why it may be important to also point out the following:

It's really Trump's undemocratic actions that make him an enemy of the Constitution and the United States. Since the election results have become clear, he's controlled a faction of undemocratic persons ordering them to fabricate evidence of fraud by his opponent. He's engaged in phone calls and communications to several states to try to convince them to overturn results in order to take illegitimate control of the future United States, ie. an attempted illegitimate coup d'etat of statesmen and propagandists. The victim is the people and the future United States administration as well as a military that would be controlled by someone who didn't win the democratic election.

What is more than that is he has prepared a paramilitary of brainwashed minions, both Qanon conspiracy theorists and Proud Boys, the latter of which he told to "Stand Back and Stand By." These are persons he knows are armed and willing to commit violence on his behalf. There is a distinction here: he did not tell them to Stand Down but instead to Stand By...i.e. to be used in the future, which means he has prepared an army for future war.

Even though I think we all know these are the reasons that Donald Trump is an Enemy of the United States, we also know it would not get anywhere in a court of law. There'd be too much difficulty in proving his connections to ordering things (versus, say, Steve Bannon). It would also come across as free speech as opposed to conspiracy to commit treason.

If and when something more material happens, the conclusion in a court of law could be different.

I'd been largely thinking along those lines but not in so much detail. My summary would be that Powell and Flynn are conspiring to illegitimately overthrow the election thus the USA by placing an unelected, illegitimate leader in the place of the legitimate elected new leader and that is an an attack on the United States.
 
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