Breakdown In Civil Order

[Derec]

Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.

It would be reduced more than slightly due to deterrence. Especially if the law changes so that felony limits are lowered.

 

[Politesse]

Those found are going to jail for years, not months, on account of the severity of their crime

And also due to the fact that it happened outside SF city limits and thus outside of DA Chesa's jurisdiction.

Contra Costa County has similar policies concerning petty theft. But they would be headed for jail for years in either jurisdiction.

 

[Politesse]

Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.

It would be reduced more than slightly due to deterrence. Especially if the law changes so that felony limits are lowered.

Ah, so you additionally want to manipulate the law so that shoplifting less than $1000 is considered a felony rather than a misdemeanor?

What is your evidence that your incredibly expensive policy proposals would control shoplifting at all, let alone more than slightly?

 

[ZiprHead]

The list of 25 deaths also includes two California law enforcement officers killed by an alleged anti-government “boogaloo” extremist.

Link to that case? I am not convinced that (unlike Proud Boys) the Boogaloos are even a real group. Even their name sound unlikely for a real group as opposed to some kind of parody.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_boogaloo_killings

In late May and early June 2020, two ambush-style attacks occurred against security personnel and law enforcement officers in California. The attacks left two dead and injured three others.

The attacks began on May 29, when a drive-by shooting occurred in front of a federal courthouse in Oakland, resulting in the death of a security officer contracted with the Federal Protective Service. Over a week later on June 6, Santa Cruz County sheriff's deputies were shot at and also attacked with improvised explosive devices; one of them died as a result.

U.S. Air Force sergeant Steven Carrillo was arrested soon after the second attack. A second suspect, Robert Justus, surrendered to authorities five days later. The FBI indicated that Carrillo was associated with the boogaloo movement, a loosely organized American far-right anti-government extremist movement whose participants say they are preparing for a second civil war.[1][2][3] Carrillo used the George Floyd protests as a cover to attack police officers, according to the FBI.[4] A white van owned by Carrillo contained a ballistic vest with a patch bearing boogaloo symbolism. Carrillo is alleged to have written "boog" and the phrase "I became unreasonable" (a popular meme among boogaloo groups) in his own blood on the hood of a vehicle he hijacked.[5] According to federal authorities, the suspects were motivated by the boogaloo movement's ideology, and allegedly intended to spread its extremist views and start a civil war.[6][7] During his arraignment, Carrillo wore a face mask with the words 'We the people,' written in marker, along with initials 'BLM' - for 'Black Lives Matter' - and 'Portland, Kenosha, George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.' [8]

 

[Jarhyn]

Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.

It would be reduced more than slightly due to deterrence. Especially if the law changes so that felony limits are lowered.

Ah, so you additionally want to manipulate the law so that shoplifting less than $1000 is considered a felony rather than a misdemeanor?

What is your evidence that your incredibly expensive policy proposals would control shoplifting at all, let alone more than slightly?

Well it would certainly make for an excellent social geometry for use in a fucked up dystopian setting?

If this is how you think people should be able to treat others for "minor violations" like stealing some cheap shit off a shelf (not even "grand theft", which is it's own thing!), I wonder how he thinks it won't be similarly easy for whatever fascist regime could do that to people to make a crime of one of his negatively viewed behaviors...

Oh, they never think that they're going to be the target at some point. No, never them.

 

[Politesse]

The same cell (presumably) hit the Southland Mall in Hayward last night. While I do not accept the dystopian Singapore-style "solutions" proposed by the right, I've got to admit that this anarchic crime activity has me feeling pretty anxious. I suspect we are dealing less with an organized crime unit like a mafia, and more a diffuse internet-fueled avenue for crimes of opportunity in which disenfranchised people with access to the right circles of communication can dip in or out of participation as they feel, thus making them very difficult to collectively hunt down. Their willingness to commit casual acts of violence en route to their goal calls "Fight Club" to mind, not in a good way. We can point fingers to the Left or Right all we like, but I think it is a fact that civil order is fracturing in this country to some degree. Riots every summer, hate crimes every winter, anarchic voices compromising the partisan structure of the goverment at both extremes. Not just in San Francisco by any means, but we will always be high on the list of targets, as long as this is where a siginificant pool of the national wealth is concentrating. And displacing the wealth would just displace the problems. Texas is getting happily high on the new business teat these days, but they're doing as badly as the South Bay did in the 90s when it comes to preparing for the long term consequences of a tech boom; they too will start to see incidents like this happening with greater and greater frequency as their population and profits boom, and they are if anything even less prepared than we were.

 

[Trausti]

 

[TomC]

You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.

That's not what he asked.
I can't help but notice your dodging what he actually did say.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Louis Vutton store was ransacked by over a dozen people, with over $1,000 in merchandise stolen, with an MSRP value of around $120,000.

Okay, I did a tiny bit of research and it seems that LV actually isn't made in tiny countries by children. But that ruins the humor.

 

[TSwizzle]

You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.

I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.

Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen. It is amusing to me that authorities are more concerned about preventing unmasked or unvaccinated people visiting stores, in LA County at least.

 

[Politesse]

You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.

I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.

Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen. It is amusing to me that authorities are more concerned about preventing unmasked or unvaccinated people visiting stores, in LA County at least.

The "no consequences" thing is rightwing bullshit, though. Prop 47 doesn't protect armed gangs like this in any way.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.

I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.

Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen.

You mean access to brazen shop lifting videos is easier these days.

 

[TSwizzle]

You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.

I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.

Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen.

You mean access to brazen shop lifting videos is easier these days.

Bore off Jimmy.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.

Prisons are just homeless shelters with guards and free healthcare. They are probably more expensive than just letting the same people have a place to sleep. It seems a little bit ass backwards to wait for them to commit a crime before giving them a bed.

 

[TomC]

Prisons are just homeless shelters with guards and free healthcare. They are probably more expensive than just letting the same people have a place to sleep.

No, really they're not.
I cannot imagine why you think this. Have you ever truly known anyone who did time in prison?
Tom

 

[Politesse]

I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.

Absolutely, because prisoners have certain rights and a minimum standard of care, however dismal those standards may be. The homeless are owed little by the government, excepting emergency medical care.

That said, I would be surprised if many of those involved in this shoplifting ring were homeless.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.

Absolutely, because prisoners have certain rights and a minimum standard of care, however dismal those standards may be. The homeless are owed little by the government, excepting emergency medical care.

That said, I would be surprised if many of those involved in this shoplifting ring were homeless.

I just figure that giving them a bunk would be cheaper.

New Study Finds that Providing People Experiencing Homelessness with Housing has Positive Impacts on Health, Crime, and Employment

A recently released study by Elior Cohen at UCLA finds that targeted housing assistance to people experiencing homelessness reduces crime, increases employment, and improves health. The study finds that participation in housing programs not only reduces the probability of returning to the...

nlihc.org

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Prisons are just homeless shelters with guards and free healthcare. They are probably more expensive than just letting the same people have a place to sleep.

No, really they're not.
I cannot imagine why you think this. Have you ever truly known anyone who did time in prison?
Tom

I like to live in a world in my imagination where our prisons were created by people that were actually rational.

 

[TomC]

I like to live in a world in my imagination

I've noticed that about you.
Tom

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I like to live in a world in my imagination

I've noticed that about you.
Tom

FYIAD.