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Breakdown In Civil Order

Emily Lake

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.
Am I correct in assuming that you have freely opened up your driveway and your yard for homeless people to make use of?
 

ZiprHead

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The New York subway seems like a very dangerous place these days;

This is the moment a man launched a vile homophobic attack on an innocent New York City subway passenger. The attacker, who is still on the run, spat at his 22-year-old victim and ripped his hair out on the northbound A train at West 190 St just before 2.30pm on March 19.

Daily Mail

There's always someone willing to record these things but never anyone willing to lift a hand to help. New York just seems to be getting evermore dangerous.
The people there voted for this. We should be happy for them.

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic stupid.
FTFY
 

bilby

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.
Am I correct in assuming that you have freely opened up your driveway and your yard for homeless people to make use of?
No, you are not correct. That would be a very stupid thing for you to assume. :rolleyes:

It certainly doesn't follow logically from my opposing the theft of the very few belongings poor people might have. I briefly entertained the idea that I might be amused to see you attempt to explain how it is a logical consequence of what I said; But of course, it's just a bog-standard application of a number of boring logical fallacies, so you needn't waste your time on such pointlessness.

IMG_6756.JPG
 

Hermit

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img_6756-jpg.37962

:hehe:

Bullseye
 

Emily Lake

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No, you are not correct. That would be a very stupid thing for you to assume. :rolleyes:

It certainly doesn't follow logically from my opposing the theft of the very few belongings poor people might have.
My point here is that you are a fantastic banner bearer for the rights of people with very little... as long as it is someone else who is bearing the cost of your support.

I get that poor and homeless people have few belongings. But they are camping on a sidewalk next to a busy street. They are in the way of pedestrians, putting those pedestrians at risk. The response taken was to close a lane of traffic and open that to pedestrians... which increases the density of traffic in the remaining lanes and increases the risk to pedestrians by putting them literally in the street without the clear and well-understood demarcation of a sidewalk.

Instead of recognizing the poor decision as a poor decision, you're busy attacking other people for not being supportive of the homeless camp that is directly intruding on other people's ability to safely navigate.

That's very easy to do, when YOU aren't being affected by it. YOU aren't being inconvenienced or put at risk by this, so YOU feel perfectly righteous to pass judgment on the topic.
 

Loren Pechtel

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.

The thing is fines get ignored. Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place. It's not about throwing stuff away, it's about avoiding the situation in the first place.
 

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you're busy attacking other people for not being supportive of the homeless camp
What? It is very doubtful that Bilby attacked other people for not being supportive of the homeless camp. I'll go even further and make the daring supposition that not even Bilby himself is supportive of homeless camps.

There is an outside possibility that he objects to the "removal" of the few possessions of the homeless on the grounds that they block a section of a footpath. This is not quite the same as being supportive of the homeless camp.
 

bilby

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.

The thing is fines get ignored.
No shit. People with no money don't pay fines, because they don't have any money.

Stealing their stuff and throwing it away doesn't work, either. The homeless people remain homeless after you throw their stuff away, they're just now even less likely to be able to do something about it (other than die).
Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
It's not about throwing stuff away, it's about avoiding the situation in the first place.
It's about seeing homeless people as a problem for the rest of us, that needs to be "cleared away"; rather than seeing homeless people as people, who have problems you and I will need to assist with.

Shit, we don't even need to care about them as people; We should assist them on the purely selfish grounds that trying to clear them away as though they were mere litter doesn't work, and we still have the problem we started with if you try that "solution" - unless and until you up the cruelty factor to 'genocide'.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
 

Politesse

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
That is such fat fucking bullshit. Homeless people are routinely removed from encampments in every city in America. Parks are "cleansed", bathrooms are locked, benches are spiked, dumpsters are bleached, every single damn day in this country. Yes, in "liberal" cities, too. If oppression alone were sufficient to resole this crisis it would have been resolved a century ago. But it turns out that cruelty does not in fact solve social and medical crises.
 

bilby

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
It's been done many times in many places.

It has no long term impact, unsurprisingly, because it does exactly nothing to reduce the number of homeless people, who rather rudely fail to vanish once you steal their stuff.

At best it moves the problem around. Usually it doesn't even achieve that.

And there are very few homeless advocates; Homelessness makes advocacy very difficult, and nobody is advocating for more homelessness.

Or by "The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen", are you seeking to deride people who attempt to defend other people against your planned theft of their few meagre belongings? Because as far as I can see, defending the downtrodden is a good thing to do.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
That is such fat fucking bullshit. Homeless people are routinely removed from encampments in every city in America. Parks are "cleansed", bathrooms are locked, benches are spiked, dumpsters are bleached, every single damn day in this country. Yes, in "liberal" cities, too. If oppression alone were sufficient to resole this crisis it would have been resolved a century ago. But it turns out that cruelty does not in fact solve social and medical crises.

I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
 

TSwizzle

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Sacramento mass shooter had a long and violent rap sheet;

Smiley Allen Martin, the second man arrested after Sunday’s mass shooting in Sacramento that killed six, has a criminal record stretching to 2013 and last year was the subject of a plea by Sacramento County District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert’s office that he not win early release from prison, where he was serving a 10-year sentence for domestic violence and assault with great bodily injury. Despite a two-page letter to the Board of Parole Hearings urging that Martin remain in custody, he won his release and was in Sacramento on Saturday night recording himself on a Facebook Live video brandishing a handgun hours before the shooting.
documents obtained by The Sacramento Bee show the DA’s office last year vehemently opposed Smiley Martin’s release from the 10-year prison sentence he received in Sacramento Superior Court on Jan. 12, 2018. “Inmate Martin’s criminal conduct is violent and lengthy,” Deputy District Attorney Danielle Abildgaard wrote in a two-page letter to the Board of Parole Hearings on April 29, 2021, opposing his release.

Sacramento Bee

And yet he was released early.
 

Politesse

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
That is such fat fucking bullshit. Homeless people are routinely removed from encampments in every city in America. Parks are "cleansed", bathrooms are locked, benches are spiked, dumpsters are bleached, every single damn day in this country. Yes, in "liberal" cities, too. If oppression alone were sufficient to resole this crisis it would have been resolved a century ago. But it turns out that cruelty does not in fact solve social and medical crises.

I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
Again, complete bullshit. Homeless people have their shit stolen by the state all the time. If oppression worked, it would have worked already.

Also, no, mental health conditions are not created by allowing people to own things.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
Again, complete bullshit. Homeless people have their shit stolen by the state all the time. If oppression worked, it would have worked already.

I'm not talking about oppression. I'm talking about separating out minor bad behavior (homeless encampment) from bigger bad behavior (homeless encampment blocking the path.)

Also, no, mental health conditions are not created by allowing people to own things.

What I'm talking about as a recipe for schizophrenia is something with an appreciable reward but occasional, random quite bad outcomes.
 

Politesse

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I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
Again, complete bullshit. Homeless people have their shit stolen by the state all the time. If oppression worked, it would have worked already.

I'm not talking about oppression. I'm talking about separating out minor bad behavior (homeless encampment) from bigger bad behavior (homeless encampment blocking the path.)
Feel free to present your evidence that this has worked, in cities where homeless people are not afforded rights.

Also, no, mental health conditions are not created by allowing people to own things.

What I'm talking about as a recipe for schizophrenia is something with an appreciable reward but occasional, random quite bad outcomes.
No, that has nothing to do with schizophrenia. And spreading prejudicial myths about the causes of mental disorders is in and of itself a socially irresponsible act worse than the ones you're decrying. No one is hurt by needing to step around something. People are routinely hurt by people who believe in pseudoscience about mental health.
 

TSwizzle

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NY, shoplifter is affronted that security guard stopped her taking stuff from the store without paying (aka shoplifting)

A brazen Manhattan shoplifter has claimed a security guard at a Duane Reade assaulted her when he stopped her from walking out of the store with fabric softener - as she details her stealing exploits across the city. The shoplifter, identifying herself as 'Jackie', gave an interview outside the store on 14th Street in Union Square on Wednesday after her clash with security in the store, claiming they dragged her into a back room and issued her with a notice banning her from all the chain's stores across the state. Jackie spoke openly about her attempts to steal the fabric softener to do her laundry and claims when the security guard stopped her at the door, she complied and handed over the merchandise before trying to leave the store.

Daily Mail

The entitlement displayed is astounding but I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise.
 

ZiprHead

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Yeah, no one's ever been robbed on an NYC subway before.
 

Loren Pechtel

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bilby

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Feel free to present your evidence that this has worked, in cities where homeless people are not afforded rights.
What rights are you talking about here?
Right to personal property.
Sorry, but when you leave your personal property lying around in public it's liable to be disposed of as trash.
What, even when you are right there trying to defend it from the people who are taking it away?
 

Emily Lake

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lpetrich

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Republicans blame Democrats for crime — but new data shows higher murder rates in red states | Salon.com - "Yes, crime is up. But eight of the 10 states with the highest murder rates in 2020 voted for Donald Trump"
Republicans have repeatedly blamed Democratic policies in big cities for a rise in murder rates during the pandemic. In fact, Republican states are reporting much higher homicide rates and some of the highest murder rates are in cities led by Republican mayors, according to data compiled by the centrist think tank Third Way.
The Red State Murder Problem – Third Way
with summary
  • The rate of murders in the US has gone up at an alarming rate. But, despite a media narrative to the contrary, this is a problem that afflicts Republican-run cities and states as much or more than the Democratic bastions.
  • In 2020, per capita murder rates were 40% higher in states won by Donald Trump than those won by Joe Biden.
  • 8 of the 10 states with the highest murder rates in 2020 voted for the Republican presidential nominee in every election this century.
That paper's assertions are broadly correct:
Back to Salon.
Republicans from former President Donald Trump to congressional lawmakers to Fox News talking heads have repeatedly pointed to Democrats' supposed "soft-on-crime" approach, bail reform laws, and "defund the police" rhetoric from left-wing activists for fueling a surge in violent crime. But the Third Way report shows that "murder rates are far higher in Trump-voting red states" and some of the highest murder rates are in cities led by Republicans.

"Republicans seem to do a much better job of talking about stopping crime than stopping crime," Jim Kessler, one of the report's authors, told Axios.
Dem group points to "Red State Murder Problem" - Axios

In all, eight of the 10 states with the highest per-capita murder rates in the country voted for Trump in 2020. None of those eight states have been carried by a Democrat since 1996. Mississippi had by far the highest murder rate at 20.5 murders per 100,000 residents, followed by Louisiana at 15.79. Alabama, Kentucky and Missouri all had murder rates higher than 14 per 100,000 compared to a national average of 6.5. The only states that voted for Biden to appear in the top 10 are Georgia — a longtime Republican stronghold that went blue by a tiny margin in 2020 — and New Mexico.

Large blue states that have attracted criticism from Republicans had murder rates significantly below the national average. New York's rate was 4.11 murders per 100,000 residents and California's was 5.59. According to the study, Mississippi's murder rate was 400% higher than New York's and 250% higher than California's.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi represents most of San Francisco, and that city's 2019 murder rate was 6.35 per 100 thousand people. By comparison, House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy's city, Bakersfield, has a Republican mayor and a large fraction of its citizens voted for Donald Trump. Its murder rate is 10.76: 73% more. Jacksonville FL is another Republican-run city, and its murder rate is 12.18: 92% more. More Republican-run cities: Fresno CA 10.64: 67%, Oklahoma City 12.49: 97%, Lexington KY: 9.00: 41%, By comparison, New York City 3.39: -47% (rate ~1/2 SF's), Los Angeles: 7.01: 10%.
 

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Yes, murders have increased, by overall 30% in 2020. But 32.2% in pro-Trump states and 30.8% in pro-Biden ones. Three of the five states with the highest increases were pro-Trump states: WY 91.7%, SD 69%, NE 59%, all mostly-rural and none with very big cities. Cheyenne WY 65 K, Sioux Falls SD 193 / 277 K, Omaha NE 486 / 968 K. The two pro-Biden states: WI 63.2% MN 58.1%. Milwaukee WI 577 / 1,575 K, Minneapolis MN 430 / 3,690 K. Numbers are (city proper) / (metro area)

Quoting Salon again,
Only one of the 10 states with the highest increases was among the top 20 states in population density — and that was Delaware, with a total population of less than 1 million. California's murder rate increased by 31%, about the national average, while New York had a higher-than-average increase of 45.8%."

A 2021 analysis previously found that the murder rate increase in Republican-led cities was virtually identical to that in Democratic-led cities. Despite Republican claims, no city in the nation has "defunded" the police and hardly any have cut police budgets.

This is more than a matter of Republican talking points or Fox News commentary. Mainstream news outlets like CNN and The New York Times have similarly pumped out countless headlines warning of rising murder rates in big cities.
The Third Way report concluded
A more accurate conclusion from the data is that Republicans do a far better job blaming others for high murder rates than actually reducing high murder rates.
 

thebeave

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There's some hope on the horizon for San Francisco. People are waking up. Progressive DA Chesa Boudin is officially out.

San Francisco votes overwhelmingly to recall progressive DA Chesa Boudin

San Francisco residents voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to recall District Attorney Chesa Boudin, one of the nation's most progressive top prosecutors.

Partial results from the San Francisco Department of Elections on Tuesday night showed the recall measure — also known as Proposition H — had the support of nearly 60% of voters, with 40% voting against it.

Boudin sought to reform the criminal justice system, ending the use of cash bail, stopping the prosecution of minors as adults, and focused on lowering jail populations amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Boudin also became the first San Francisco DA to file homicide charges against city police officers.
 

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There's some hope on the horizon for San Francisco. People are waking up. Progressive DA Chesa Boudin is officially out.

San Francisco votes overwhelmingly to recall progressive DA Chesa Boudin
Yes, murder crime is up across the entire nation, red, blue, purple, but that DA in San Francisco was the cause of it all.

And if we look at California, violent crime has actually been dropping, in spite of murders increasing. And in 2020, violent and property crime went down in San Francisco.

In 2021:
article said:
According to the data, rape cases decreased, with 204 reported in 2021, compared to 224 in 2020, and 396 in 2019. Robberies also decreased with 2,242 reported in 2021, compared to 2,404 in 2020, and 3,099 in 2019.

Aggravated assaults slightly increased citywide from 2,183 in 2020 to 2,381 in 2021. Both numbers, however, are down compared to 2,547 aggravated assaults reported in 2019.

Burglaries decreased slightly in 2021 with 7,217, compared to 7,575 in 2020. Meanwhile, thefts increased to 31,139 in 2021, compared to 25,692 in 2020.

Car breaks-in San Francisco also increased in 2021 to 20,663, compared to 14,859 in 2020.

Auto thefts, however, saw a slight decrease in 2021 with 6,030, compared to 6,082 the previous year. Although, both numbers are a jump from 2019, when the city had considerably less auto thefts with 4,442.
It appears that there is nuance in the truth and San Francisco isn't burning to the ground.
 

Politesse

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There's some hope on the horizon for San Francisco. People are waking up. Progressive DA Chesa Boudin is officially out.

San Francisco votes overwhelmingly to recall progressive DA Chesa Boudin
Yes, murder crime is up across the entire nation, red, blue, purple, but that DA in San Francisco was the cause of it all.

And if we look at California, violent crime has actually been dropping, in spite of murders increasing. And in 2020, violent and property crime went down in San Francisco.

In 2021:
article said:
According to the data, rape cases decreased, with 204 reported in 2021, compared to 224 in 2020, and 396 in 2019. Robberies also decreased with 2,242 reported in 2021, compared to 2,404 in 2020, and 3,099 in 2019.

Aggravated assaults slightly increased citywide from 2,183 in 2020 to 2,381 in 2021. Both numbers, however, are down compared to 2,547 aggravated assaults reported in 2019.

Burglaries decreased slightly in 2021 with 7,217, compared to 7,575 in 2020. Meanwhile, thefts increased to 31,139 in 2021, compared to 25,692 in 2020.

Car breaks-in San Francisco also increased in 2021 to 20,663, compared to 14,859 in 2020.

Auto thefts, however, saw a slight decrease in 2021 with 6,030, compared to 6,082 the previous year. Although, both numbers are a jump from 2019, when the city had considerably less auto thefts with 4,442.
It appears that there is nuance in the truth and San Francisco isn't burning to the ground.
People really believed the media circus about the mass lootings, though. Like, they were afraid to go out. I'm certain that's what cost Boudin his job.
 

TSwizzle

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There's some hope on the horizon for San Francisco. People are waking up. Progressive DA Chesa Boudin is officially out.

San Francisco votes overwhelmingly to recall progressive DA Chesa Boudin

San Francisco residents voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to recall District Attorney Chesa Boudin, one of the nation's most progressive top prosecutors.

Partial results from the San Francisco Department of Elections on Tuesday night showed the recall measure — also known as Proposition H — had the support of nearly 60% of voters, with 40% voting against it.

Boudin sought to reform the criminal justice system, ending the use of cash bail, stopping the prosecution of minors as adults, and focused on lowering jail populations amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Boudin also became the first San Francisco DA to file homicide charges against city police officers.
Boudin is a dangerous loon. He didn't take the recall well, blaming right wing billionaires for his demise.

Fingers crossed that George Gascon gets recalled.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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There's some hope on the horizon for San Francisco. People are waking up. Progressive DA Chesa Boudin is officially out.

San Francisco votes overwhelmingly to recall progressive DA Chesa Boudin

San Francisco residents voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to recall District Attorney Chesa Boudin, one of the nation's most progressive top prosecutors.

Partial results from the San Francisco Department of Elections on Tuesday night showed the recall measure — also known as Proposition H — had the support of nearly 60% of voters, with 40% voting against it.

Boudin sought to reform the criminal justice system, ending the use of cash bail, stopping the prosecution of minors as adults, and focused on lowering jail populations amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Boudin also became the first San Francisco DA to file homicide charges against city police officers.
Boudin is a dangerous loon. He didn't take the recall well, blaming right wing billionaires for his demise.
Well it wasn't actual soaring crime that did him in.
 

TSwizzle

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In Newsom's California, two cops killed in El Monte and a CHP officer shot in Van Nuys by a vagrant;

An hours-long manhunt for the man wanted in connection with shooting a California Highway Patrol officer in Van Nuys resulted in arrest early Tuesday morning. Pejhmaun Iraj Khosroabadi, 33-years-old, was taken into custody just before 9 a.m. after he was found hiding inside of a tent on Haskell Avenue by an LAPD bloodhound.

News

In good news for Los Angeles, the effort to recall LA DA Gascon moves forward. Enough signatures have been collected and submitted by the deadline. The problem now is signature verification process. A corrupt LA County will try their hardest to scupper the measure getting on the ballot.
 

TSwizzle

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The killer of the two El Monte cops was on probation for a felony. A plea deal that Gascon wanted;

The man who killed two El Monte police officers was on probation for illegally carrying a gun when he fired on the officers as they responded to a call for service at a motel Tuesday, court records show. Law enforcement sources identified the gunman as Justin Flores, 35. Arrested in 2020 and charged with possessing methamphetamine, a handgun and ammunition, Flores pleaded no contest in February 2021 to possessing a firearm as a felon, records show. Prosecutors dropped the other charges.

LA Times

Gascon needs to be recalled. Actually, he should resign.
 

TSwizzle

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Portland sounds like a sewer;

The streets of Portland resemble an 'open air drug market' after state officials' scheme to decriminalize hard drugs led to a surge in overdose deaths, critics claim. Law enforcement agents say that the streets of Portland are full of homeless addicts openly buying and selling drugs and that signs of drug addiction are actually increasing statewide, Fox News reported. Photos show the desperate situation in the Pacific Northwest city, where people can be seen shooting up drugs or passed out in broad daylight.

Daily Mail

Similar to what we see in San Francisco or Los Angeles.
 

Politesse

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Based on the scaremongering above, you might expect that Democrat-led states in general and the West Coast states specifically must lead the entire nation in overdose deaths. But of course, that's not even close to true:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm

Drug ODs.jpg

It turns out, social stigma and imprisonment are very ineffective tools for saving lives from drug overdose, and party affiliation in particular seems to be almost entirely irrelevant, or at least, not very effective at predicting where outbreaks will center. Rather, the opioid epidemic has a geographic pattern, and that pattern seems to hold true whether a particular community is in a "red" or "blue" state.
 

prideandfall

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Based on the scaremongering above, you might expect that Democrat-led states in general and the West Coast states specifically must lead the entire nation in overdose deaths. But of course, that's not even close to true:
pfffft don't you know that only 'recreational' ones used by the poors count as 'drugs'?
good honest corn-fed white folks popping fentanyl until they drop dead isn't 'drug overdoses' that's just a little steam bubble in the paint job of capitalism.

you're comparing apples to vespas here, the two are totally unrelated*

*poe's law applies here.
 

bilby

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Based on the scaremongering above, you might expect that Democrat-led states in general and the West Coast states specifically must lead the entire nation in overdose deaths. But of course, that's not even close to true:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/drug_poisoning_mortality/drug_poisoning.htm

View attachment 39081

It turns out, social stigma and imprisonment are very ineffective tools for saving lives from drug overdose, and party affiliation in particular seems to be almost entirely irrelevant, or at least, not very effective at predicting where outbreaks will center. Rather, the opioid epidemic has a geographic pattern, and that pattern seems to hold true whether a particular community is in a "red" or "blue" state.
Whoever would have thought that a Daily Mail report about a Fox News report would turn out to be factually wrong hyperbole designed solely to pander to the prejudices and emotional triggers of the right-wing idiots?

I am shocked.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Based on the scaremongering above, you might expect that Democrat-led states in general and the West Coast states specifically must lead the entire nation in overdose deaths. But of course, that's not even close to true:
Sometimes it is a 'well, it used to be true'. I had no idea that drug related deaths have increased so much since 1999 across the country (including the west coast).

If that chart stayed constant with color shading from 1999, 2020 would look quite badly. Only 5 states in 1999 had deaths rates in excess of the minimum state in 2020 (10.3).
It turns out, social stigma and imprisonment are very ineffective tools for saving lives from drug overdose, and party affiliation in particular seems to be almost entirely irrelevant, or at least, not very effective at predicting where outbreaks will center. Rather, the opioid epidemic has a geographic pattern, and that pattern seems to hold true whether a particular community is in a "red" or "blue" state.
As I noted up above, drug overdose rates have gone up substantially across America. The shading in the 2020 graph is misleading! The West Coast looks lower, but only relevant to other states.

Of course, what we also know is that liberal drug policy has seen the drug overdose death rate in Nebraska increase 400 to 500% between 1999 and 2020.
 

Politesse

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Sometimes it is a 'well, it used to be true'. I had no idea that drug related deaths have increased so much since 1999 across the country (including the west coast).

If that chart stayed constant with color shading from 1999, 2020 would look quite badly. Only 5 states in 1999 had deaths rates in excess of the minimum state in 2020 (10.3).
Oh, it's completely horrifying to be sure. The spike in deaths has been catastrophic, and the impact of existing interventions seems to have only minor effect on the whole. Unfortunately, outside of the communities most heavily affected very few Americans care if their countrymen are dying of... well, anything I suppose, but especially heavily stigmatized diseases like drug addiction. There's very little concern and even less funding to deal with the crisis.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Based on the scaremongering above, you might expect that Democrat-led states in general and the West Coast states specifically must lead the entire nation in overdose deaths. But of course, that's not even close to true:
Sometimes it is a 'well, it used to be true'. I had no idea that drug related deaths have increased so much since 1999 across the country (including the west coast).

If that chart stayed constant with color shading from 1999, 2020 would look quite badly. Only 5 states in 1999 had deaths rates in excess of the minimum state in 2020 (10.3).
Yup, another victory for the drug war.

Fentanyl is smaller than heroin, this makes it easier to smuggle into the country. Thus we see heroin that's cut more but then laced with fentanyl to make it as potent--oops, you're getting into the realm that you must take considerable care in mixing to avoid substantial differences from dose to dose. Your average drug dealer isn't taking enough care.
 

Derec

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In good news for Los Angeles, the effort to recall LA DA Gascon moves forward. Enough signatures have been collected and submitted by the deadline. The problem now is signature verification process. A corrupt LA County will try their hardest to scupper the measure getting on the ballot.

Garcon getting the boot and Caruso getting elected mayor would likely be the best thing to happen to LA in decades.
 

lpetrich

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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Wow. Another world is possible. 🌺" / Twitter

Hawai'i State Commission on the Status of Women on Twitter: "
📣 BREAKING
There are zero incarcerated girls in Hawai’i. For the 1st time in the history of the Hawai’i Youth Correctional Facility, it is empty of girls. This is no fluke or accident. HYCF has been empty for weeks after years of work to replace handcuffs with healing." / Twitter

No further details, however.

But I found this detailed look:
Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "@HawaiiCSW Congrats, Hawai'i! Some observations: ..." / Twitter

Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "In 2013, a bipartisan, interbranch workgroup found the state was spending $200k/year to lock up kids, increasingly for misdemeanors, and holding them longer. They recommended legislative (and other) changes to safely reduce populations. (links)" / Twitter
noting
Hawaii’s 2014 Juvenile Justice Reform - PSPPHIJuvenileJusticeReformBrief.pdf
The language is dry and bureaucratic, yet the core message in a new report on juvenile justice comes through with devastating clarity: Hawaii is failing to rehabilitate most offenders because it uses the wrong approach, relying on expensive incarceration even for those convicted of misdemeanors and failing to provide timely access to the drug and mental-health treatment these troubled youths desperately need."

Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "In less than 5 years, the number of kids in the state's secure facility fell by two-thirds. (pic link)" / Twitter
Going from 100 in 2013 to 34 in 2018

Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "Court referrals for new law violations fell by 28%, status referrals fell 9%, court filings down 30%, and admissions to probation and facilities fell by more than half. Documented by @CJIatCRJ with support from @OJPOJJDP (link)" / Twitter
noting
HI-Brief-v8-10-17-17_UPDATED_8-pages_FINAL_FINAL_FINAL_WEB.pdf

Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "@CJIatCRJ @OJPOJJDP Lots of responses to the main article insinuating that courts were just "getting soft." False. In the decade ending 2015 two things fell by 50%: the juvenile facility commitment rate AND the juvenile violent crime arrest rate. (link)" / Twitter
noting
Juvenile Commitment Rate Falls by Half Nationally in 10 Years | The Pew Charitable Trusts
Over 2006 - 2015

Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "@CJIatCRJ @OJPOJJDP But were these reductions just in "blue states" like Hawaii? Nope. See examples from Utah (link) and Kansas (link)" / Twitter
noting
Utah’s 2017 Juvenile Justice Reform Shows Early Promise | The Pew Charitable Trusts
and
Kansas Sees 63% Decline in Youth Confinement | The Pew Charitable Trusts

Jake Horowitz on Twitter: "Here's a more comprehensive round-up (link) /fin" / Twitter
noting
States Take the Lead on Juvenile Justice Reform | The Pew Charitable Trusts
On March 24, Utah—the seventh state with which Pew has partnered—became the latest state to embrace reform when Governor Gary Herbert (R) signed comprehensive juvenile justice legislation to promote public safety; hold youth offenders accountable; control costs; reduce recidivism; and improve outcomes for juveniles, families, and communities. The law removes truancy from juvenile court jurisdiction; expands effective precourt alternatives; establishes presumptive lengths of time that youth can remain on probation, in out-of-home placements, and under the supervision of the court; caps fines and fees; and prioritizes restitution to victims over other financial obligations, among many other reforms. It is expected to cut the population of juveniles placed in state custody by 47 percent by 2022, compared with projected levels, freeing up more than $70 million over five years for reinvestment in evidence-based alternatives to incarceration.
Note especially "... prioritizes restitution to victims over other financial obligations ..."

That's great. Addressing concerns of victims directly is something that our criminal-justice system is rather lacking in.
 

TSwizzle

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Portland's open-air drug market is laid bare as people smoke heroin on the streets and needles litter the sidewalks as city officials start homeless sweeps while a nearby city's mayoral candidate 'wants to round them up and use 'Japanese-style pods' to house them. New photos taken by DailyMail.com show the current situation in Portland, a city that has been plagued with homelessness and addicts openly using drugs in broad daylight. Users were seen injecting themselves, slumping over in a semi-comatose state. Discarded needles, human waste and the smell of urine adds another layer of tarnish to city's progressive policies - one of them being the Ballot Measure 110 decision, which has decriminalized hard drugs in the Democrat-run state.

Daily Mail

It's quite shocking that this is allowed to grow.
 

TSwizzle

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Not a problem because it was more violent back in the eighties I guess;

Washington, Baltimore, Atlanta, Los Angeles and Milwaukee are on track to surpass their already-soaring homicide rates from last year. Last year, the FBI warned that homicides in the US rose nearly 30 percent from 2020 and overall violent crime rose for the first time in four years. The stunning trend in homicides has continued this year. In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the homicide rate leaped 24.7 percent from the year-to-date compared to the same period last year.

Daily Mail
 

lpetrich

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I checked on California Primary Election Results 2022 - The New York Times

Chesa Boudin was recalled 55% - 45% -- *not* overwhelmingly.

The LA mayor: Karen Bass 43.1%, Rick Caruso 36.0%, others 7.8%, 6.9%, 1.9%, 1.5%, 1.0%, 0.7%, 0.4%, 0.4%, 0.3%, 0.2%

How a billionaire mall magnate pulled ahead in the Los Angeles mayoral race - POLITICO
For decades, billionaire Rick Caruso has quietly wielded influence and curried political capital in one of the nation’s most sprawling and diverse metropolises. Now, he wants to cash in that clout for the top job in city hall.

At 63, Caruso has spent most of his adult life as a Republican, developing some of Los Angeles’ most iconic luxury shopping centers and helming several influential city commissions — all while keeping an eye on the mayor’s office. His polished persona and powerful connections make him an obvious candidate for political office, but past ruminations of mounting a campaign have fizzled in the liberal city.
 
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