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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Palestinian paramedics said Israel gave them safe passage to save a 6-year-old girl in Gaza. They were all killed.

For three-and-a-half long hours on Jan. 29, the cellphone in 6-year old Hind Rajab’s hands was the closest thing she had to a lifeline. Alone in the back seat of a car outside a Gaza City gas station, she was drifting in and out of consciousness, surrounded by bodies, as she told emergency dispatchers that Israeli tanks were rumbling closer.

From the operations room of the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), roughly 50 miles away in the city of Ramallah, the team on duty had done their best to save the child. Paramedics were on their way, the dispatchers kept telling her: Hold on.

The paramedics were driving to their deaths.

Twelve days later, when a Palestinian civil defense crew finally reached the area, they found Hind’s body in a car riddled with bullets, according to her uncle, Samir Hamada, who also arrived at the scene early that morning. The ambulance lay charred roughly 50 meters away (about 164 feet) from the car, its destruction consistent with the use of a round fired by Israeli tanks, according to six munitions experts.

In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces said they conducted a preliminary investigation and that its forces were “not present near the vehicle or within the firing range” of the Hamada family car. Nor, they said, had they been required to provide the ambulance permission to enter the area. The State Department said it has raised the case repeatedly with the Israelis. “The Israelis told us there had, in fact, been IDF units in the area, but the IDF had no knowledge of or involvement in the type of strike described,” said spokesman Matt Miller.

A Washington Post investigation found that Israeli armored vehicles were present in the area in the afternoon, and that gunfire audible as Hind and her cousin Layan begged for help, as well as extensive damage caused to the ambulance, are consistent with Israeli weapons. The analysis is based on satellite imagery, contemporaneous dispatcher recordings, photos and videos of the aftermath, interviews with 13 dispatchers, family members and rescue workers, and more than a dozen military, satellite, munitions and audio experts who reviewed the evidence, as well as the IDF’s own statements.
And what evidence do we have that any of this is the case? We keep seeing claims that are "supported" by images that clearly do not show what they are claimed to show. (Although in this case none of the images loaded for me.)

Israel says they weren't there. The Washington Post can't put them on the scene at that time (but satellites have that time problem.) If this happened in an area under Israeli control why was there no request to have Israel go look? We have had other cases of "the IDF" shooting up things that clearly weren't done by the IDF. And note that PRCS refuses to object to the military use of it's vehicles and thus forfeits the normal don't-shoot-me of the Red Cross.
 
Yeah, it is the "fog of war" that causes the IDF to kill aid workers of all types. :rolleyesa:
And we still haven't seen the reality on that one.

One of those three "strikes" on the aid workers was clearly fake. Until that's addressed I see no reason to believe the rest of it, either.
 

How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
Obviously, the first step would be broad recognition that the Gazans are victims of Hamas and their supporters not Israel.
Thank you for answer to the last question. Only you can imagine how that would help the unarmed citizenry of Gaza overthrow Hamas.
Doesn't matter. Looking for your keys under the streetlight won't work no matter how dark the rest of the place is.


I missed your explanation of how killing aid workers increases anyone's security. Would please point it out?


Have you explained the faked attack? Do you even have enough understanding of military stuff to understand why I called one of the strikes fake?
 
One of those three "strikes" on the aid workers was clearly fake. Until that's addressed I see no reason to believe the rest of it, either.
I don't even know enough about this particular incident to have an opinion.

What I do know is how little regard Gazan leadership has for human life across the board. And how much support that gets them from the broader Muslim world.
Tom
 

How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
Obviously, the first step would be broad recognition that the Gazans are victims of Hamas and their supporters not Israel.
Thank you for answer to the last question. Only you can imagine how that would help the unarmed citizenry of Gaza overthrow Hamas.
Doesn't matter. Looking for your keys under the streetlight won't work no matter how dark the rest of the place is.
If you are going to butt into a discussion, at least have the courtesy to understand the context. But thanks for the koan.
I missed your explanation of how killing aid workers increases anyone's security. Would please point it out?


Have you explained the faked attack? Do you even have enough understanding of military stuff to understand why I called one of the strikes fake?
The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?
 
The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?
Would any of that have happened if Iran and their minions wanted peace and prosperity, instead of war and destruction?

I don't think so.
Give me a reason to believe that the whole debacle is not a direct result of Muslim authoritarian violence. Just one.

I don't think you can. Because I don't think that there is one.
Tom
 
How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
Perhaps the Israelis could help them?
On wait. The Israelis/Jews are the cause of all the unrest and killing. I forgot about that.
 
How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
Perhaps the Israelis could help them?
On wait. The Israelis/Jews are the cause of all the unrest and killing. I forgot about that.
Good for you. Cleaning out horseshit from one;s mind is healthy. .
 
The IDF admitted it killed the food aid workers and the ambulance going to the aid of a child. Why would the IDF be mistaken about what they did?
Would any of that have happened if Iran and their minions wanted peace and prosperity, instead of war and destruction?

I don't think so.
Give me a reason to believe that the whole debacle is not a direct result of Muslim authoritarian violence. Just one.

I don't think you can. Because I don't think that there is one.
Tom
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel. Also, it wouldn't have happened if the parents of those aid workers didn't have children. It woudn't have happened if there was no aid. It wouldn't have happened if the IDF didn't indiscriminately bomb them.

And that is an incomplete list. All I had to do was think.
 
There's an intruder in your house with a double-barreled shotgun. Is your family safe because two rounds aren't enough to kill everyone in the house?
That's a really shitty analogy. The intruder left months ago and now you not only want to murder him but all his family and friends too.
 
Palestinian paramedics said Israel gave them safe passage to save a 6-year-old girl in Gaza. They were all killed.

For three-and-a-half long hours on Jan. 29, the cellphone in 6-year old Hind Rajab’s hands was the closest thing she had to a lifeline. Alone in the back seat of a car outside a Gaza City gas station, she was drifting in and out of consciousness, surrounded by bodies, as she told emergency dispatchers that Israeli tanks were rumbling closer.

From the operations room of the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), roughly 50 miles away in the city of Ramallah, the team on duty had done their best to save the child. Paramedics were on their way, the dispatchers kept telling her: Hold on.

The paramedics were driving to their deaths.

Twelve days later, when a Palestinian civil defense crew finally reached the area, they found Hind’s body in a car riddled with bullets, according to her uncle, Samir Hamada, who also arrived at the scene early that morning. The ambulance lay charred roughly 50 meters away (about 164 feet) from the car, its destruction consistent with the use of a round fired by Israeli tanks, according to six munitions experts.

In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces said they conducted a preliminary investigation and that its forces were “not present near the vehicle or within the firing range” of the Hamada family car. Nor, they said, had they been required to provide the ambulance permission to enter the area. The State Department said it has raised the case repeatedly with the Israelis. “The Israelis told us there had, in fact, been IDF units in the area, but the IDF had no knowledge of or involvement in the type of strike described,” said spokesman Matt Miller.

A Washington Post investigation found that Israeli armored vehicles were present in the area in the afternoon, and that gunfire audible as Hind and her cousin Layan begged for help, as well as extensive damage caused to the ambulance, are consistent with Israeli weapons. The analysis is based on satellite imagery, contemporaneous dispatcher recordings, photos and videos of the aftermath, interviews with 13 dispatchers, family members and rescue workers, and more than a dozen military, satellite, munitions and audio experts who reviewed the evidence, as well as the IDF’s own statements.
And what evidence do we have that any of this is the case? We keep seeing claims that are "supported" by images that clearly do not show what they are claimed to show. (Although in this case none of the images loaded for me.)
Really? Not supported but you didn't see the images? See, this is the kind of bullshit you post that tells everyone your "analysis" is nothing more than Israel apologia.

Israel says they weren't there. The Washington Post can't put them on the scene at that time (but satellites have that time problem.) If this happened in an area under Israeli control why was there no request to have Israel go look? We have had other cases of "the IDF" shooting up things that clearly weren't done by the IDF. And note that PRCS refuses to object to the military use of it's vehicles and thus forfeits the normal don't-shoot-me of the Red Cross.
Apparently you did not read the article.
 
Hamas has said they intend to keep doing it until Israel is gone. That clearly establishes intent.

There's an intruder in your house with a double-barreled shotgun. Is your family safe because two rounds aren't enough to kill everyone in the house?
Done enough times, and that intruder could kill every single American. The POTUS is therefore justified in ordering the USAF to wipe out your entire neighbourhood to ensure that the intruder has been eliminated.
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
 
Hamas has said they intend to keep doing it until Israel is gone. That clearly establishes intent.

There's an intruder in your house with a double-barreled shotgun. Is your family safe because two rounds aren't enough to kill everyone in the house?
Done enough times, and that intruder could kill every single American. The POTUS is therefore justified in ordering the USAF to wipe out your entire neighbourhood to ensure that the intruder has been eliminated.
What the hell is that about?

If I am under attack by someone who has said publicly "I'll kill Tom and his whole family", then started shooting up my house,
Yeah I'd fully expect the government to get involved .

Sorry if their kids are left orphans. It's what happens when you have violent parents.
Tom
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
If you cannot distinguish between Gazans and Hamas, perhaps you should simply avoid commenting on them.
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
If you cannot distinguish between Gazans and Hamas, perhaps you should simply avoid commenting on them.
Let me know when you can.

In the meantime, how about you distinguish between the folks who launched the October 7 attack on innocent civilians and everybody else.

Clearly. Not just handwaved whataboutism. Make it clear.
Tom
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
If you cannot distinguish between Gazans and Hamas, perhaps you should simply avoid commenting on them.
Let me know when you can.
TomC said:
In the meantime, how about you distinguish between the folks who launched the October 7 attack on innocent civilians and everybody else.
Hamas launched the attack and Hamas terrorists did the raping, killing and kidnapping. . Civilians did not.
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
If you cannot distinguish between Gazans and Hamas, perhaps you should simply avoid commenting on them.
Let me know when you can.
TomC said:
In the meantime, how about you distinguish between the folks who launched the October 7 attack on innocent civilians and everybody else.
Hamas launched the attack and Hamas terrorists did the raping, killing and kidnapping. . Civilians did not.
How do you distinguish between Gazans, Hamas supporters and Hamas?
Tom
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
If you cannot distinguish between Gazans and Hamas, perhaps you should simply avoid commenting on them.
Let me know when you can.
TomC said:
In the meantime, how about you distinguish between the folks who launched the October 7 attack on innocent civilians and everybody else.
Hamas launched the attack and Hamas terrorists did the raping, killing and kidnapping. . Civilians did not.
How do you distinguish between Gazans, Hamas supporters and Hamas?
Tom
Do you mean civilians, Hamas supporters and Hamas? Because your question, as written, cannot be answered.
 
You're right, It wouldn't have happened if Hamas had not attacked Israel.
How can I distinguish between Hamas and Gazan?
I don't see any way to do that objectively. Hamas lead Gazans is as close as I know.

Got a better suggestion?
Tom
If you cannot distinguish between Gazans and Hamas, perhaps you should simply avoid commenting on them.
Let me know when you can.
TomC said:
In the meantime, how about you distinguish between the folks who launched the October 7 attack on innocent civilians and everybody else.
Hamas launched the attack and Hamas terrorists did the raping, killing and kidnapping. . Civilians did not.
How do you distinguish between Gazans, Hamas supporters and Hamas?
Tom
Do you mean civilians, Hamas supporters and Hamas? Because your question, as written, cannot be answered.
I responded to your assertions.

So, can you distinguish between Gazans, their supporters, and Hamas?

That's my question. Can you distinguish between Gazans and Hamas and their supporters?
Tom
ETA ~ Can you distinguish between the folks who launched the October 7 attack and everybody else? ~
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