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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

 
 
 
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TSwizzle said:
Gaza’s media office has accused Israel of violating the ceasefire with Hamas 47 times since the truce came into effect in early October, killing 38 Palestinians and wounding another 143. “These violations have included crimes of direct gunfire against civilians, deliberate shelling and targeting, and the arrest of a number of civilians, reflecting the occupation’s continued policy of aggression despite the declared end of the war,” reads the statement.
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Teh Gruaniad

They really will publish any old rubbish.
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Do you expect a news organization to not publish such statements?

Sounds like you do not want a news organization, you want a propaganda machine.
 
Politesse said:
Wow, just piling it on, aren't you? No, I haven't, and no it doesn't, anyway. It does reflect my bias in the sense that I don't think the US should be involved in another nation's conflicts to begin with, and we're only backing one of the warring parties.
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Should US have stayed out of WWII as well? Note that US had been indirectly involved long before 12/7/41.
Also, MSF is an organization I have a longstanding relationship with and care deeply about.
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They are one of the groups smuggling Muslim mass migrants into Europe through the Mediterranean route. I hold them in very little regard for that reason.
I did not in fact say that, nor do I think we should "sanction" Israel, unless you consider refusing to bankroll genocidal actions a "sanction".
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There are no "genocidal actions" other than those attempted by Hamas and their allies.
Israel's "solution" has accomplished nothing. It's not even a solution, anymore than a gasoline/petrol canister is a solution to wildfires.
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It has greatly weakened Hamas and its allies, including Hezbollah and even Iran. Note that creating firebreaks is a legitimate tactic for dealing with wildfires.

It is clear that Hamas is not interested in peace (except for "a little piece of Tel Aviv, a little piece of Haifa, a little piece of Negev, and Jerusalem perchance").
They are refusing to disarm, which was one of the provisions of the ceasefire deal, and this morning they violated the ceasefire directly when they attacked IDF in Rafah.
So the only viable solution is to keep Hamas as weak as possible.
The only party that has "solved" anything here in the sense of bringing a conflict to some sort of resolution have been President Biden and President Trump, respectively, and the diplomatic pressure of the Gulf kingdoms that have wisely (unlike the US) refused to just straightfowardly endorse one of the militant groups.
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The ceasefire is very shaky, and nothing will lead to a durable ceasefire except making Hamas give up power and arms.

So is blowing children to pieces and then killing the doctors who arrive to try and stitch them back together. Neither children nor aid workers are "Hamas", and random terrorist acts inflame rather than soothing tensions, as Hamas itself has decisively proven in this conflict.
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Which incident are you referring to concretely? Note that we know that some medical professionals are moonlighting as Hamas operatives.
Example: The Hostages Next Door: Inside a Notable Gaza Family’s Dark Secret
 
Derec said:
ZiprHead said:
Do you expect a news organization to not publish such statements?
Sounds like you do not want a news organization, you want a propaganda machine.
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I expect them to not just parrot statements made by Hamas uncritically.
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That's what the editorial page is for.
 
steve_bank said:
Look at the total tonnage of ordnance expended on Gaza, a very small area. Palestinians had no where to go, shooting fish in a barrel. If the bombing campaign was not genocide I do not know what is.
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Actually the total tonnage of ordnance dropped is a strong argument against this being a genocide. We have >100,000t of bombs vs. ~70k dead. Less than one dead Gazan (including the combatants) per ton of ordnance dropped. If there had been an attempt to obliterate the population, the death count would have been much, much bigger.
Note also that the age/sex breakdown of fatalities show that the dead are mostly military-aged males.
gaza fatalities.png
Analysis and graph are my own, using Hamas Health Ministry's list from this September.
The destruction of Gaza has not destroyed Hamas, it destroyed the peool and their homkes.
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It has destroyed a great deal of Hamas. All the top commanders within Gaza - the Sinwar Brothers, Mohammed Deif etc. - are dead, as are many of the experienced fighters and commanders.
Yes, a lot of civilians unfortunately died too, and much of Gaza has been destroyed. But starting wars of aggression has conseqences - Gaza CIty and Khan Younis do not look that much different than Berlin and Dresden looked in 1945.
Bomb a school, hospital, or home Israel says there were terrorists. It is not a militarily canpai8gn it is a terror campaign.
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BS. Hamas and allies use hospitals and schools for their operations.
Israel says Hamas Gaza chief Sinwar's body identified
He was in a tunnel underneath the European Hospital.
As the war p[regressed reporting from Israel showed the army was getting frustrated seieing no military goal. Some soldiers began refuting to fight.l
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Anti-terrorism campaigns are tough, especially when the terrorists enjoy widespread support in the population. That does not mean that they are not necessary.
It all comes around to Netanyahu keeping his political power. He tried to eliminate judicial review of the legislature, backed off due to popular opposition. It would be like Trump getting rid of SCOTUS.
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Not really. It was about reducing the scope of judicial review, trying to remove a power that SCOTUS for example does not have.
 
Derec said:
Yes, a lot of civilians unfortunately died too, and much of Gaza has been destroyed. But starting wars of aggression has conseqences
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Which of those civilians started a war of aggression?

Is seems that living in the same area as people who start wars of aggression is what has consequences. Would you be OK with your family being killed by police, because your next door neighbour started a shootout with them? Would you just shrug, and say "starting a shootout with the cops has consequences"?
 
Derec said:
ZiprHead said:
Do you expect a news organization to not publish such statements?
Sounds like you do not want a news organization, you want a propaganda machine.
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I expect them to not just parrot statements made by Hamas uncritically.
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I expect news outlets to report what people say, not what their readers and listeners prefer to read and hear.
 
Toni said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Toni said:
TomC said:
Politesse said:
I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.
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I wonder what will save the next batch of Israeli civilians kidnapped by Gazan militants.
The clear lesson is that violent Muslim supremacists can kidnap civilians and their supporters, like you, will rally to their cause!
Tom
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Leave ‘Muslim’ out of it. Like every other conflict, it’s all motivated by money and power, hiding under a cloak of religion.
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There are two parts to what he said.

Yes, like every other conflict it's about power (money is a means to power).

But what he was referring to is how much the left supports one of the viler organization on Earth. Why do you bend over backwards to avoid blaming them for what they have done??
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I think that Hana’s is vile. That is unrelated to Islam or Muslims.

Just as some, usually white ‘Christians ‘ are Nazis and/or white supremacists, most white people are not Nazis or white supremacists. Nor are most Christian’s Nazis or white supremacists. In fact, most Christians would say that Nazis white supremacists are are not Christians.
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You aren't addressing my point at all. You say you don't like Hamas--but you keep taking their side over Israel. Just like most of the left does. You say they are vile but you blindly accept their propaganda and reach the position they are after.
 
Politesse said:
I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.
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Diplomacy, but backed by violence. Until very recently, Hamas' demands was the release of all prisoners, including high profile terrorists like Abdullah and Marwan Barghouti and Ahmad Sa'adat. It was only through taking the war to Hamas and inflicting tremendous damage that Hamas agreed to free remaining hostages for less. Even so, Israel had to pay a steep price - almost 2000 prisoners were released, including 250 who served life sentences for murdering Israelis in terrorist attacks.

And note also that Hamas staunchly refuses to disarm and that they violated the ceasefire just this morning.
 
Derec said:
steve_bank said:
Look at the total tonnage of ordnance expended on Gaza, a very small area. Palestinians had no where to go, shooting fish in a barrel. If the bombing campaign was not genocide I do not know what is.
Click to expand...
Actually the total tonnage of ordnance dropped is a strong argument against this being a genocide. We have >100,000t of bombs vs. ~70k dead. Less than one dead Gazan (including the combatants) per ton of ordnance dropped. If there had been an attempt to obliterate the population, the death count would have been much, much bigger.
Note also that the age/sex breakdown of fatalities show that the dead are mostly military-aged males.
View attachment 52442
Analysis and graph are my own, using Hamas Health Ministry's list from this September.
The destruction of Gaza has not destroyed Hamas, it destroyed the peool and their homkes.
Click to expand...
It has destroyed a great deal of Hamas. All the top commanders within Gaza - the Sinwar Brothers, Mohammed Deif etc. - are dead, as are many of the experienced fighters and commanders.
Yes, a lot of civilians unfortunately died too, and much of Gaza has been destroyed. But starting wars of aggression has conseqences - Gaza CIty and Khan Younis do not look that much different than Berlin and Dresden looked in 1945.
Bomb a school, hospital, or home Israel says there were terrorists. It is not a militarily canpai8gn it is a terror campaign.
Click to expand...
BS. Hamas and allies use hospitals and schools for their operations.
Israel says Hamas Gaza chief Sinwar's body identified
He was in a tunnel underneath the European Hospital.
As the war p[regressed reporting from Israel showed the army was getting frustrated seieing no military goal. Some soldiers began refuting to fight.l
Click to expand...
Anti-terrorism campaigns are tough, especially when the terrorists enjoy widespread support in the population. That does not mean that they are not necessary.
It all comes around to Netanyahu keeping his political power. He tried to eliminate judicial review of the legislature, backed off due to popular opposition. It would be like Trump getting rid of SCOTUS.
Click to expand...
Not really. It was about reducing the scope of judicial review, trying to remove a power that SCOTUS for example does not have.
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The Israel invasion was first called a genocide on a legal technicality, barely. At no point did anyone serious really think it was an actual genocide.

The 1948 genocide convention wasn't written with a scenario in mind where one combatant uses their own population as human shields.

Israel have gone above and beyond what can be expected in order to protect civilians. Typically a combatant doesn't inform the enemy in advance before they bomb a military target. But they did this time. Every time. They were under no obligation to do this. It was on Hamas to evacuate civilians before their first strike. It was on Hamas to evactuate civilians after Israel retaliated.

If anything this might be the first case in history of suicidal self-genocide. Since Hamas hasn't done one iota to get their people out of harms way. The moment Israel shot the first misile they should have realised that their tactic wasn't working, and they can back down.
 
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Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
Politesse said:
DrZoidberg said:
What Israel proved to Hamas is that Hamas can't use civilians as human shields as a deterrent. That's a powerful message. Hopefully this is the first and last time a combatant ever tries to use that tactic.
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If you believe that, you're a child.
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Ok. Please explain to me why I am wrong
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Hamas is still around... which implies that Hamas can successfully use Gazans as human shields. Sure, lots of Hamas fighters are dead, lots of Gazans are dead, but the top ones are generally alive and well (at least for the moment as we wait to see what Mossad has in mind now that the hostages are returned). Hamas is still Hamas.

What Israel demonstrated is that destroying Hamas is impossible militarily.
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No, they haven't. One thing Israel has proven is that Hamas' tactics doesn't work. And that's an extremely positive thing. For world peace.

The only thing that keeps Hamas in power right now is religious fanaticism. But you know what... that can fade. Nobody likes being on a losing team. All-Julani was an Islamist fighter for ISIS. When he realised that global Islamic Jihad wasn't working, he stopped. Now he's trying to be a middle of the road pragmatic statesman.

Don't forget that these same Arab Islamist fanatic types were communists in the 70'ies.

I think this late trend of Islamic fanaticism is paper thin.

Arabic culture (and all Mediterranean cultures) are overly theatrical and over the top, where extreme loyalty is overtly displayed and people compete for seeming to be the most extreme. But it's mostly an act. European/Protestant cultures don't have that. If anything we aloof and emotionally detached. It's just different cultural styles. So it's easy for us protestant types to misunderstand Arabs.

Once Islamism goes out of fashion in the Middle-East it's dead. It won't die completely. I think it's an inbuilt feature of Islam. But this latest breed of Islamofascists... that'll certainly disapear for the same reason Nazism, fascism and communism went away from Europe. Not competely. But will stop being a serious political force.

And why do I think Islamism will die? Because it doesn't work.
 
bilby said:
Derec said:
Yes, a lot of civilians unfortunately died too, and much of Gaza has been destroyed. But starting wars of aggression has conseqences
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Which of those civilians started a war of aggression?
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IIRC it was not the civilians at the Nova music festival that started a war of agression
bilby said:
Is seems that living in the same area as people who start wars of aggression is what has consequences. Would you be OK with your family being killed by police, because your next door neighbour started a shootout with them? Would you just shrug, and say "starting a shootout with the cops has consequences"?
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It does has consequences. Pity Hamas did not really consider that starting a war of agression next door to Gaza might spill over into Gaza itself.
 
Politesse said:
Tigers! said:
Your constant criticism of Israel, your barely audible mutterings about Hamas tell us very clearly that you have taken sides as noted earlier.
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Repeating a lie doesn't make it more true. Post proof of my "support of Hamas", or retract your false statement about me.
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You haven't constantly criticised Israel?
 
Tigers! said:
bilby said:
Is seems that living in the same area as people who start wars of aggression is what has consequences. Would you be OK with your family being killed by police, because your next door neighbour started a shootout with them? Would you just shrug, and say "starting a shootout with the cops has consequences"?
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It does has consequences. Pity Hamas did not really consider that starting a war of agression next door to Gaza might spill over into Gaza itself.
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What makes you think that things haven't played out like Hamas planned it? They took hostages that they exchanged for thousands of their imprisoned fighters. On the hostage exchange ratio Hamas did extremely well.

I think the only flaw in Hamas' plan was that too many people saw through their calous tactic of using Palestinian civilians as human shields. Yes, some people fell for manipulation tactic and started accusing Israel of genocide. But not enough to be able to put pressure on Israel to stop their assault. And I think that was what Hamas was hoping for.

And Hamas hasn't been beaten yet. I'm convinced that at this point Hamas has seen this war as a win. I don't think Hamas gives a shit about Palestinian lives. I think this was just about getting their top guys out of jail, and that succeeded.

That's what Israeli pundits mean when they say that Hamas is a "death cult". They don't care how many people die as long as they make Jews suffer.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Toni said:
I think that Hana’s is vile. That is unrelated to Islam or Muslims.

Just as some, usually white ‘Christians ‘ are Nazis and/or white supremacists, most white people are not Nazis or white supremacists. Nor are most Christian’s Nazis or white supremacists. In fact, most Christians would say that Nazis white supremacists are are not Christians.
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You aren't addressing my point at all. You say you don't like Hamas--but you keep taking their side over Israel. Just like most of the left does. You say they are vile but you blindly accept their propaganda and reach the position they are after.
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Good luck supporting that false statement.
 
Derec said:
Politesse said:
I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.
Click to expand...
Diplomacy, but backed by violence. Until very recently, Hamas' demands was the release of all prisoners, including high profile terrorists like Abdullah and Marwan Barghouti and Ahmad Sa'adat. It was only through taking the war to Hamas and inflicting tremendous damage that Hamas agreed to free remaining hostages for less. Even so, Israel had to pay a steep price - almost 2000 prisoners were released, including 250 who served life sentences for murdering Israelis in terrorist attacks.

And note also that Hamas staunchly refuses to disarm and that they violated the ceasefire just this morning.
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If we are talking diplomacy, why in the heck are you talking about Hamas. There is no peace with Hamas. Their entire purpose is disruption. If Gaza (sans Hamas) signed a peace deal with Israel, Hamas would do everything they could to screw it up... as well as assassinate anyone in Gaza that was involved with that deal.

Diplomacy involves Iran, not Hamas.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Toni said:
I think that Hana’s is vile. That is unrelated to Islam or Muslims.

Just as some, usually white ‘Christians ‘ are Nazis and/or white supremacists, most white people are not Nazis or white supremacists. Nor are most Christian’s Nazis or white supremacists. In fact, most Christians would say that Nazis white supremacists are are not Christians.
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You aren't addressing my point at all. You say you don't like Hamas--but you keep taking their side over Israel. Just like most of the left does. You say they are vile but you blindly accept their propaganda and reach the position they are after.
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Good luck supporting that false statement.
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Why would Loren support any of his positions with anything like…facts.
 
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