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Progressives betray voters and back a Zionist speaker

 
 
 
RVonse said:
I don't have a problem with Israel having the right to exist with your definition as long as it is peaceful.
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The problem with peacefulness is not on Israel's side, but on the side of its enemies.
Stay within your original post WW2 assigned borders and then mind your own business!
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They minded their own business! Then Arabs were fixing to invade in 1967, which led to the Six Day War. Then Arabs invaded in 1973 on Yom Kippur. And so on, all the way to Gaza invading Israel in 2023.
Where I have the problem is when the US has to provide Israel their supposed right to exist.
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I do not see a problem with us aiding our allies when they are attacked or threatened. I also support continued US support for Ukraine and Republic of China (aka Taiwan).
Especially when Israel's borders continue to expand well beyond what was agreed to post WW2.
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The borders definitely do not "continue to expand". Israel returned Sinai to Egypt in return for a peace deal. Israel disengaged from Gaza in the hope that it will encourage Palestinians to seek a more peaceful coexistence. That one massively backfired.
Yes the US is their ally but we shouldn't have to fight their wars for expansion of their borders.
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How is e.g. Israel defending itself from aggression from Gaza "expansion of their borders"?
We should provide federal tax dollars for our own people first.
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We are. A miniscule part of the federal tax dollars are spent helping Israel - and even that is used to buy US weapons.
If that makes me an anti-Zionist then I guess I am.
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I think you are wrong, but not quite an antizionist.
 
Patooka said:
Harry Bosch said:
Patooka said:
Tigers! said:
Toni said:
Sigh. It should make you pretty happy that there is a big movement t to scuttle the speakership position for Jeffries, which I find very short sighted. Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.
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What is your definition of "anti-Zionist"?
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I suspect being against the concept of Greater Israel for starters. Something the US ambassador to Israel wholeheartedly supports by the way.
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? And Jefferies is for the "concept of Greater Israel"? This is an odd thread...
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You might need some context then. This thread was created by someone who loves listening to anti-Semitic white supremacists (Tucker Carlson etc). It's a bad faith argument right from the get go (and not the first or even hundredth time RVonse has done this BTW). Toni pointed out (rightly IMO) that in this current climate the media almost always conflate anti-Zionism/criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic and went on to clarify there is a distinction. Tigers! is of the opinion Israel can do no wrong and that Gaza can't do anything right.
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Thank you for your unsolicited opinion as to what I think. Perhaps if you care to peruse my posts you will see that I have been critical of aspects of Israel's response esp. concerning indiscrimate targeting and just flinging bombs in to see how high the rubble will bounce.
I daresay I have criticised Israel far more than you have criticised Hamas.
Patooka said:
They decided to be obtuse and ask what anti-Zionism is and I gave my thoughts. Now you're up to speed.
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Thank you for your thoughts. I was however asking Toni for her opinion.
Patooka said:
All in all, I wouldn't take this thread seriously either. It is predicated on something Jimmy fucking Dore ranted about. Don't ever take people who listen to him seriously.
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Yes it has got like that.
 
ZiprHead said:
The progressives of the Dems party are the ones who reject Jeffries.
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There is nothing truly progressive about islamoleftism (i.e. the alliance between leftism and Islamism) that is at the core of this. That's why I prefer to call them fauxgressives.
The more conservative side is the side that would support Hakeem.
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You mean moderate?
 
Toni said:
There are people who don’t think that Jews should not exist but who don’t believe in an established Jewish state—ie, Israel.
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One can be against Jews without going as far wanting their extermination. As I said, not wanting there to be a Jewish state, but being fine with several Arab states, is almost always motivated by an animosity toward Jews. I.e. antisemitism.
Would you consider this to be antisemitic?
Boycott and Counterprotest Over Jewish Eateries Stir Tension in Philadelphia
To me, it resembles the "Kauft nicht bei Juden" campaigns of the early Nazi era in Germany.
Israel as it was established post WWII did not arise from the peoples who lived there but was formed and imposed by the winners of WWII ( extremely shorthand version of what/how happened.
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There was Jewish remigration to the Land of Israel well before WWII, and even before WWI and the British Mandate. Jews were buying land from the Ottomans while they controlled the area. At the same time, there was also Arab migration there - from Egypt, from Yemen etc. Why do you consider Arabs to have more rights to the land than Jews?
And by the way, this migration was not just European Jews. Many Jews have been driven out from Arab/Muslim countries and settled in Israel, including the parents of the likely next prime minister of Israel Gadi Eisenkot. Instead of sticking them in "refugee camps" in perpetuity (like what their Arab brethren did to Palestinian Arabs), Israel integrated them fully into their society.
Arctish had some excellent posts re: formation of Israel.)
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These posts are anti-Israel, but certainly not "excellent".
Quite obviously, I am not an historian.
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Neither am I, but I have read a lot about this.
 
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ZiprHead said:
Bullshit. Zionism means God gave Israel to the Jews and the Jews only.
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Zionism started in the 19th century among secular Jews, and doesn't have anything to do with "God".
It is your side that is siding with religious zealots, not mine.
Again, bullshit.
[...]
It's certainly not the win you think it is.
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Talking to yourself, I see ...
 
laughing dog said:
While I agree that if Israel is "replaced", it is most likely with a Muslim state, that does not mean anti-zionists necessarily want to replace Israel with a Muslim state. So, your definition was incorrect
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Add "tacitly" if it makes you happy, but it doesn't change much practically. It's the same with any anti-Ukrainists: if you want Ukraine to be dissolved as a sovereign state, you at least tacitly support it being taken over by Russia. Antizionism is no different.
 
Derec said:
laughing dog said:
While I agree that if Israel is "replaced", it is most likely with a Muslim state, that does not mean anti-zionists necessarily want to replace Israel with a Muslim state. So, your definition was incorrect
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Add "tacitly" if it makes you happy, but it doesn't change much practically. It's the same with any anti-Ukrainists: if you want Ukraine to be dissolved as a sovereign state, you at least tacitly support it being taken over by Russia. Antizionism is no different.
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Nonsense. In the case of Anti-Zionist it could be extreme optimism, naïveté, or a very long time horizon.
 
laughing dog said:
**** citation needed *****
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I don't have a citation, but I have offered my reasons for this observation.

To reiterate: if someone thinks that there should be no Jewish state, but that there should be e.g. Arab states, how do you explain that except that they most likely have an animosity toward Jewish people?
 
Derec said:
ZiprHead said:
Bullshit. Zionism means God gave Israel to the Jews and the Jews only.
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Zionism started in the 19th century among secular Jews, and doesn't have anything to do with "God".
It is your side that is siding with religious zealots, not mine.
Again, bullshit.
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It's certainly not the win you think it is.
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Talking to yourself, I see ...
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It does have to do with God in as Jews regard what is now Israel as their ancestral home, where many of their important religious sites are located.
 
Derec said:
laughing dog said:
**** citation needed *****
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I don't have a citation, but I have offered my reasons for this observation.
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As I expected, bias driven.

Derec said:
To reiterate: if someone thinks that there should be no Jewish state, but that there should be e.g. Arab states, how do you explain that except that they most likely have an animosity toward Jewish people?
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Antizionists do not necessarily want an Arab state. You shifted the goal post.
 
Derec said:
ZiprHead said:
Bullshit. Zionism means God gave Israel to the Jews and the Jews only.
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Zionism started in the 19th century among secular Jews,
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Just because it started that way doesn't mean it stayed that way.
AI Sparkles AI Generated Content

Religious Zionism combines traditional Orthodox Judaism with modern political nationalism, originating from the belief that returning to and settling the Land of Israel is a religious imperative tied to Jewish redemption. [1, 2]

Historical Roots and Ideology
    • Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (Rav Kook): The foundational ideologue who viewed the modern, often secular Zionist movement as an unconscious instrument of divine historical process. [1, 2]
    • Gush Emunim ("Bloc of the Faithful"): A pivotal activist movement formed after the 1967 Six-Day War that spearheaded the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) based on the belief that these territories are the biblical heartland. [1]
    • Dual Strands of Activism: Historically split between practical-settlement streams (such as Hapo'el Hamizrachi and land pioneering) and institutional-political streams (such as the Mizrachi movement and the National Religious Party). [1]

Contemporary Political and Grassroots Activism
    • Religious Zionist Party: Led by Bezalel Smotrich, this far-right, ultra-nationalist political party advocates for West Bank annexation, expanded settlement building, judicial overhaul, and strengthening Jewish identity in state institutions. Detailed platforms can be explored via the Israel Democracy Institute. [1, 2]
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Derec said:
and doesn't have anything to do with "God".
It is your side that is siding with religious zealots, not mine.
Again, bullshit.
[...]
It's certainly not the win you think it is.
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Talking to yourself, I see ...
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Uh huh.

See above.
 
What do Progressives have to do with it? ... They do not appoint the Speaker of the House... and if they did, a fucking corporate lawyer who hates Progressivism is not who they would pick...
 
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RVonse said:
Harry Bosch said:

What is a "zionist speaker"? Yes, it will be very difficult for us to get out of Iran. Trump got us there. Would a democrat have been bambzelled into invading Iran? Probably not. Netananu tried to talk Biden into it, but he was too savvy.
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We will never know whether Trump was coerced or whether he was just stupid.

What we do know is that the Ukraine war was entered with the Biden administration so Biden was not really a peacemaker. And based on all the other stupid wars Democrat POTUS have started (including LBJ) I'm inclined to believe the party of the POTUS would not have mattered in the end.
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We will certainly know whether Trump was coerced or stupid before he leaves office. I'm splitting my bet half on coerced and half on stupid. It's not really that difficult to coerce a stupid person.

As for Biden the peacemaker, his only real option for ending was to bring all the western European heads of state into a room and then announce all the military resources of the US and Europe were at Ukraine's disposal. That probably wouldn't have deterred Putin, but actually doing it would have ended the war a few years ago. That would have left Russia licking its wounds, but not really any less of a threat. As things have worked out, Russia will be a threat to no one but themselves for the 30 or so years.

Funny how these things work out.
 
OP is just here to undermine progressives. Forked tongue, talking out of both sides of its mouth, paper asshole, etc… totally disingenuous.
 
Toni said:
Derec said:
Toni said:
Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.
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Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist. Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

While there can be anti-zionists who are not anti-semites, I am hard-pressed to come up with too many possible scenarios where this would apply. One would be the ultra-orthodox Jews who think that Israel should be reestablished as a Messianic kingdom and not as a product human effort, e.g. by secular Jews who bought up land in the Ottoman Empire, and then defended the nascent state from onslaught by Arab armies.

However, I am hard-pressed to think of another reason to be anti-zionist but not anti-semitic. Surely, if it's ok for there to be almost a dozen Arab states and even more Muslim states, it should be ok for there to be a single Jewish state to serve as the homeland for Jewish people.
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There are people who don’t think that Jews should not exist but who don’t believe in an established Jewish state—ie, Israel. Israel as it was established post WWII did not arise from the peoples who lived there but was formed and imposed by the winners of WWII ( extremely shorthand version of what/how happened. Arctish had some excellent posts re: formation of Israel.)

Quite obviously, I am not an historian.
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Do you consider the Jews to be the winners of WW2? I guess that you could argue that. But I'd view them more of survivors. 70% of their people were killed (my guess)? Most of them lost their homes, their possessions, and everything. Where were they suppose to go? Many went to Israel where they were welcomed. Not surprising to me.
 
Harry Bosch said:
Toni said:
Derec said:
Toni said:
Also worth noting that one can be anti-Zionist without being anti- Semitic. I’m quite concerned that this is being very muddled.
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Zionism means supporting the right of Israel to exist. Anti-zionists want to abolish Israel and replace it with yet another Arab, Muslim state.

While there can be anti-zionists who are not anti-semites, I am hard-pressed to come up with too many possible scenarios where this would apply. One would be the ultra-orthodox Jews who think that Israel should be reestablished as a Messianic kingdom and not as a product human effort, e.g. by secular Jews who bought up land in the Ottoman Empire, and then defended the nascent state from onslaught by Arab armies.

However, I am hard-pressed to think of another reason to be anti-zionist but not anti-semitic. Surely, if it's ok for there to be almost a dozen Arab states and even more Muslim states, it should be ok for there to be a single Jewish state to serve as the homeland for Jewish people.
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There are people who don’t think that Jews should not exist but who don’t believe in an established Jewish state—ie, Israel. Israel as it was established post WWII did not arise from the peoples who lived there but was formed and imposed by the winners of WWII ( extremely shorthand version of what/how happened. Arctish had some excellent posts re: formation of Israel.)

Quite obviously, I am not an historian.
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Do you consider the Jews to be the winners of WW2? I guess that you could argue that. But I'd view them more of survivors. 70% of their people were killed (my guess)? Most of them lost their homes, their possessions, and everything. Where were they suppose to go? Many went to Israel where they were welcomed. Not surprising to me.
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I also see Jews as survivors. But they did not carve out what is now Israel. The Allied forces did that. IMO (and keep in mind I am not an historian) it was probably motivated by both guilt for not having helped Jews in Europe earlier or taken in more Jewish refugees and part antisemitism/xenophobia. The world was largely torn into shreds, or at least Europe was, and there were many refugees looking for a new home as theirs had been destroyed. Europe needed to rebuild a lot of infrastructure, homes, etc. Everyone had wounded soldiers to look after, dead ones to mourn. But I'll still go with guilt/antisemitism as heavy influencers. And also a hope of providing those who wished to live in Israel an true homeland. Sadly enough, in former times, in what is now Israel, Jews and Muslims and Christians all lived together in relative harmony. Each religious faith identifies places within Israel as holy.
 
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