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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

 
 
 
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DrZoidberg said:
You really do seem to hate Jews.
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Half of my familiy are Jews. I grew up with Jews, celebrated Jewish holidays, and still have many close friends who are Jews.

I do not hate Jews, nor have I ever hated Jews.

I know plenty of Jews who agree with my views on Likud and Bibi, and who are also appalled at what they are doing.

I am in favour of the continued existence of Israel as a nation, and no more allow Bibi's criminality to make me hate Jews than I allow Trump's criminality to make me hate Americans.

You, on the other hand, have repeatedly slandered me with this utterly laugable claim that I am somehow an anti-semite.

You, I could hate.
 
Tigers! said:
bilby said:
Tigers! said:
Killing 1200 and kidnapping > 200 is now just a provocation?
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Where did you get the word "just" from?
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In post no. 11,931 you said
Hamas chose to provoke a war.
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They did. Totally unnecessary.
The vast majority of Palestinians were not consulted.
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Do you mean Palestinians or Gazans? As was pointed out earlier the terms are not strictly interchangeable.
That is true and will stay that way until Hamas are removed from power.
And Israel didn't have to respond to that provocation with genocide;
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You introduced the term provocation not I.
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I didn't question the word "provokation".

I asked you 'Where did you get the word "just" from?'

I note that you haven't attempted to answer that question.
Tigers! said:
They have been provoked many times in the past without doing so.
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When was the last time that 1200 Jews were killed in a morning? Hint in WW2.
You expect Israel not to respond to such a death toll?
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No. But "respond to" ≠ "commit genocide in response to".
Tigers! said:
The government's job is to protect its people.
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And their actions are not achieving that, but are instead perpetuating a conflict in which those people are under threat.
 
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think, if Israel controls Gaza and south Lebanon, and Golan there's nowhere left for terrorists to launch rockets
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Sure. Nowhere at all.

Oh, wait:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Iranian_strikes_on_Israel

In the 40 days from the start of the war through the 8 April ceasefire, there were a total of 650 missile attacks from Iran to Israel, the majority of which carried cluster munitions. About 16 of the missiles that made it past Israeli missile defenses carried conventional warheads, while 50 had cluster munitions. The attacks killed a total of 24 people, all of them civilians, and resulted in more than 7,000 injuries. Of the 24 civilians killed, 14 were struck by warheads with conventional explosive warheads and 10 were victims of cluster submunitions; two of the deaths were inside a sheltered space, with the other fatalities being people in unprotected areas.
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How exactly are 10 000 000 Israel's supposed to occupy a country with 100 000 000 Iranians?

What's your game plan?
 
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bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
You really do seem to hate Jews.
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Half of my familiy are Jews. I grew up with Jews, celebrated Jewish holidays, and still have many close friends who are Jews.

I do not hate Jews, nor have I ever hated Jews.

I know plenty of Jews who agree with my views on Likud and Bibi, and who are also appalled at what they are doing.

I am in favour of the continued existence of Israel as a nation, and no more allow Bibi's criminality to make me hate Jews than I allow Trump's criminality to make me hate Americans.

You, on the other hand, have repeatedly slandered me with this utterly laugable claim that I am somehow an anti-semite.

You, I could hate.
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All I have is your words. It's all I have to form an opinion with.

Right now we have had a sharp rise in antisemitism in the world. As soon as Jews stand up for themselves, a large proportion of the world goes nuts because of antisemitism. You can try to explain it away. But I am not buying it.

In general, Jews fucking suck at standing up for themselves. That's always been their problem. But other people expecting Jews to cower submissively doesn't mean all Jews need to agree. I don't think they should. I applaud them when they demand equal respect in the world. Everybody deserves to be allowed to do their thing and live their lives. Nobody should have to live in fear just because of who they are.

Calling out racism isn't slander. I think we need more of it right now.

Enjoy your hate. You do seem to love to hate people.
 
DrZoidberg said:
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think, if Israel controls Gaza and south Lebanon, and Golan there's nowhere left for terrorists to launch rockets
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Sure. Nowhere at all.

Oh, wait:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Iranian_strikes_on_Israel

In the 40 days from the start of the war through the 8 April ceasefire, there were a total of 650 missile attacks from Iran to Israel, the majority of which carried cluster munitions. About 16 of the missiles that made it past Israeli missile defenses carried conventional warheads, while 50 had cluster munitions. The attacks killed a total of 24 people, all of them civilians, and resulted in more than 7,000 injuries. Of the 24 civilians killed, 14 were struck by warheads with conventional explosive warheads and 10 were victims of cluster submunitions; two of the deaths were inside a sheltered space, with the other fatalities being people in unprotected areas.
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How exactly are 10 000 000 Israel's supposed to occupy a country with 100 000 000 Iranians?
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Who the fuck said they should, or could?

You said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think, if Israel controls Gaza and south Lebanon, and Golan there's nowhere left for terrorists to launch rockets
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I pointed out that this is untrue, by providing an example of another place for terrorists to launch rockets; And note that they have been doing so, by the hundreds.

Your response should be along the lines of "Oh, I was wrong, sorry I didn't think of Iran". Not some bizarre non-sequitur about Israel occupying Iran. :rolleyes:
 
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think, if Israel controls Gaza and south Lebanon, and Golan there's nowhere left for terrorists to launch rockets
Click to expand...
Sure. Nowhere at all.

Oh, wait:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Iranian_strikes_on_Israel

In the 40 days from the start of the war through the 8 April ceasefire, there were a total of 650 missile attacks from Iran to Israel, the majority of which carried cluster munitions. About 16 of the missiles that made it past Israeli missile defenses carried conventional warheads, while 50 had cluster munitions. The attacks killed a total of 24 people, all of them civilians, and resulted in more than 7,000 injuries. Of the 24 civilians killed, 14 were struck by warheads with conventional explosive warheads and 10 were victims of cluster submunitions; two of the deaths were inside a sheltered space, with the other fatalities being people in unprotected areas.
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How exactly are 10 000 000 Israel's supposed to occupy a country with 100 000 000 Iranians?
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Who the fuck said they should, or could?
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You seemed to think it's realistic somehow?

bilby said:
You said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think, if Israel controls Gaza and south Lebanon, and Golan there's nowhere left for terrorists to launch rockets
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I pointed out that this is untrue, by providing an example of another place for terrorists to launch rockets; And note that they have been doing so, by the hundreds.

Your response should be along the lines of "Oh, I was wrong, sorry I didn't think of Iran". Not some bizarre non-sequitur about Israel occupying Iran. :rolleyes:
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What the fuck are you smoking? The distance the rockets are being fired is relevant. Iran is far away. It's way more expensive and annoying for Iran to shoot, not to mention easier to intercept, shahed drones than a guy with a mortar next door. Guys who can physically enter your country is more a problem than guys who can't. But you know this. Obviously. So why pretend you don't?

A list of non-sequitur dumb gotchas is not a conversation in good faith. Or a conversation at all really.

If you have any arguments, let's hear them? Instead of this nonsense.
 
Israel was founded as a secular state.

Separation of church and state is a general norm in the Christian west and it is always under attack.

The RCC wants to get back into Italian schools. The RCC popes always try to insert themselves as a moral authority in world affairs. It is pervasive.

There is no general principle of separation in Islam. Iran is a theocracy. The religious leaders can and do over ride the legislature.

several Arab states today are considered theocracies, including Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, and Vatican City, according to 2026 rankings
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Saudi Whabinism is highly anti west. In the past Saudi Arabia funded Wahabi schools in thee USA, anti west. Under pressure the Saudis have moderated it.


For more than two centuries, Ibn Abd al-Wahhab's teachings were championed as the official creed in the three Saudi States. As of 2017, changes to Saudi religious policy by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman have led to widespread crackdowns on Islamists in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab world. By 2021, the waning power of the religious clerics brought about by the social, economic, political changes, and the Saudi government's promotion of a nationalist narrative that emphasizes non-Islamic components, led to what has been described as the "post-Wahhabi era" of Saudi Arabia.[g] Saudi Arabia's annual commemoration of its founding day on 22 February since 2022, which marked the ascension of Muhammad ibn Saud in 1727 and de-emphasized his pact with Ibn Abd al-Wahhab in 1744, has led to the official "uncoupling" of the religious clergy by the Saudi state.[h]

For the list of Arab majority countries the question is the degree of religious power.
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We keep trying to negotiate in the Mid East assuming the cultures will respond as the west would. It has always failed.

Arab Muslim culture have an entirely different history. Same with Persians.

In the 90s I took a technical night class from an Iranian immigrant. After class I inadvertently refereed to Iranians as Arabs. He immediate in no uncertain terms informed me Iranians were Persians not Arabs.

The region is a culture clash. The only thing that will control it is an overhwng militray authority.

Western democracy is not likely to work k in the Mid East.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Shadowy Man said:
Emily Lake said:
Toni said:
Emily Lake said:
DrZoidberg said:
Nobody alive today can be this ignorant. So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?
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My guess is he's looking for a technical gotcha. You know, like the democratic people's republic of north korea isn't communist because democratic is right there in the name? And you know, some countries with muslim majorities still manage to have a reasonable degree of freedom, like Albania.
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Or maybe he wants a few facts along with that oversized plate of opinionating Dr Z likes to serve.
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Yeah, following posts made that clear. The initial post read as oppositional though, so I get how DrZ ended up there. Subsequent post didn't seem as much of a set up for argument.
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My initial post was in Response to DrZ saying “Muslim countries tend to be police states.” Then I asked him about the statistics of that statement (which I have now posted after a Google search) because although that does seem true to some middle eastern countries I wasn’t sure if that is a general rule and wanted to see the statistics on it. I didn’t view that as “oppositional” as you put it. DrZ then accused me of gross ignorance for not knowing what should be obvious to everyone in the world, followed by other inaccurate accusations. I do not have interest in arguing against the person, though, I just wanted to know the facts.
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Its still obvious to everyone in the world. Including you, I think. I think you knew you were talking shit from your first reply. I think you thought you were being clever. Didn't work out.

How about we stop this childish nonsense and shift the discussion to why Muslim countries so often end up as authoritarian police states? The interesting discussion, imho.
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I think you are misidentifying who was talking shit and who is engaging in childish nonsense.

If you want to have a discussion about Muslim countries 'so often ending up as authoritarian police states' then please lead the discussion in that direction. It would be helpful if you provided some concrete facts, and some links to sources.
 
bilby said:
Tigers! said:
You introduced the term provocation not I.
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I didn't question the word "provokation".

I asked you 'Where did you get the word "just" from?'

I note that you haven't attempted to answer that question.
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I was using the term "just" as an Adverb (Only, Exactly, or Recently)
"Only / Merely / Simply: Meaning nothing more than what is specified (e.g., "I just want some peace")." according to the OED.
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Tigers! said:
bilby said:
Tigers! said:
You introduced the term provocation not I.
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I didn't question the word "provocation".

I asked you 'Where did you get the word "just" from?'

I note that you haven't attempted to answer that question.
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I was using the term "just" as an Adverb (Only, Exactly, or Recently)
"Only / Merely / Simply: Meaning nothing more than what is specified (e.g., "I just want some peace")." according to the OED.
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Indeed, and it was wrong for you to do so.

You said:

Tigers! said:
Killing 1200 and kidnapping > 200 is now just a provocation?
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Which adds a minimising qualifier I did not use.

I said it was a provocation, and you put into my mouth the word "just", clearly implying that I consider such a provocation to be a minor thing. I do not, and you were wrong to imply that I do.
 
pood said:
It amazes me how long this idiocy has gone on.

To those reprobates here who condemn people here as being anti-Semitic, I’d say:

No one here is anti-Semitic.

We just don’t want Jews to do to others, what was evilly done to them.

Hard to follow? :unsure:
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It’s not hard to follow, I just think it’s short sighted.

Look, Israel’s very recent behavior has been very aggressive. So has Ukraine’s.

Both Israel and Ukraine have exacted considerable casualties against an aggressor who initiated a conflict, killing far more of the aggressor than they themselves have lost.

Both have general support from the US, because both are in conflict with entities that are hostile toward the US (and all of Western Europe in general).

The notable difference is that Israel has historically taken a fairly restrained approach toward an entity that has been consistently attacking and trying to kill them for over half a century, and who has the stated desire to eradicate all Israelis.

The disparate response of otherwise rational people to these situations is baffling. Israel has been being accused of genocide since the day after they were brutally attacked. But Ukraine has been viewed as a victim almost universally. Israel is condemned and vilified for taking territory from their opponent, but Ukraine gets viewed as doing so fairly.

As a simplified generalization, Ukraine gets viewed as the victimized underdog who is fighting back against a bully.

You guys remember some years ago there was a video of a kid who was being picked on, who snapped and picked up the bully and threw him down on his head? That kid had been consistently bullied for months before he fought back, but there was a huge outpouring of concern for the bully and criticism of the victim who fought back.

So far as I can see, that’s how Israel is being treated. They’re being vilified for successfully fighting back against an entity that has been persistently attacking them for 50+ years.

My overall conclusion is that propaganda works. Iran (who unquestionably supports and backs has) is 100% known to have a highly active propaganda arm. China too. Russia not so much. It’s there, but it’s more often used against their own people and to periodically attempt to sway opinion about US politicians (which a whole lot of other countries also do).
 
DrZoidberg said:
Emily Lake said:
DrZoidberg said:
Cultures aren't binary. They're continually evolving and adapting. Its a continuum. A persons culture is basically what values are good to have in order to be successful in that society. There's a huge variety out there. Ones culture can be different depending on social class, etc.

Muslims aren't a monolith. They're different depending on where they live. Muslims living in the west who are successful are of course well integrated. That means western values. As well there's resentful and bitter Muslims who try really hard to be good Muslims, but only get shit for it. There's all sorts.

Its completely normal for immigrants (or anyone really) to have several sets of conflicting values.

But there are some patterns. We can look at populations and draw conclusions. If a group of people keep doing something then that's information.

We can either see the failure of democracy in Muslim countries as super super bad luck. Or (more likely) a result of Muslim culture.
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I think there's also a difference in assimilation tendencies depending on whether the muslims in question are voluntary immigrants who actually wanted to become americans (or germans or whatever), versus those who landed here as refugees or asylum seekers. The latter tend to hold more strongly to the culture of their original nations and try to keep it going in their destination country. The latter tend to already want to be part of the culture of their destination, which is why they moved here and sought citizenship in the first place.
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I think that is a middle-class vs working class difference.

The middle-class has never had a problem adapting for success. While the working class are often too proud to adapt
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I don’t agree. That might contribute to a degree, but I don’t think it’s the largest driver.
 
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think, if Israel controls Gaza and south Lebanon, and Golan there's nowhere left for terrorists to launch rockets
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Sure. Nowhere at all.

Oh, wait:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Iranian_strikes_on_Israel

In the 40 days from the start of the war through the 8 April ceasefire, there were a total of 650 missile attacks from Iran to Israel, the majority of which carried cluster munitions. About 16 of the missiles that made it past Israeli missile defenses carried conventional warheads, while 50 had cluster munitions. The attacks killed a total of 24 people, all of them civilians, and resulted in more than 7,000 injuries. Of the 24 civilians killed, 14 were struck by warheads with conventional explosive warheads and 10 were victims of cluster submunitions; two of the deaths were inside a sheltered space, with the other fatalities being people in unprotected areas.
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Okay, let’s take this as presented.

Is your opinion that Israel should STOP fighting the aggressive terrorists on their doorstep because they’re still at risk from terroristic nations a bit further away?

What the hell sense does that make?
 
Emily Lake said:
pood said:
It amazes me how long this idiocy has gone on.

To those reprobates here who condemn people here as being anti-Semitic, I’d say:

No one here is anti-Semitic.

We just don’t want Jews to do to others, what was evilly done to them.

Hard to follow? :unsure:
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It’s not hard to follow, I just think it’s short sighted.

Look, Israel’s very recent behavior has been very aggressive. So has Ukraine’s.

Both Israel and Ukraine have exacted considerable casualties against an aggressor who initiated a conflict, killing far more of the aggressor than they themselves have lost.

Both have general support from the US, because both are in conflict with entities that are hostile toward the US (and all of Western Europe in general).

The notable difference is that Israel has historically taken a fairly restrained approach toward an entity that has been consistently attacking and trying to kill them for over half a century, and who has the stated desire to eradicate all Israelis.

The disparate response of otherwise rational people to these situations is baffling. Israel has been being accused of genocide since the day after they were brutally attacked. But Ukraine has been viewed as a victim almost universally. Israel is condemned and vilified for taking territory from their opponent, but Ukraine gets viewed as doing so fairly.
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The inclusion of the salient facts that
1) Ukraine was invaded by a much larger aggressor,
2) the bulk of Ukraine’s violence has been against the invaders,
3) Ukraine is suffering daily attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure while Israel is not, and
4)much of Israel’s violence was on civilians not invaders,

renders your analysis as blatant propaganda.
 
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