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2020 Election Results

States have the President's personal attorney guilty of felonies regarding the false certification of a number of state Electoral Voter slates. Had just two people, McConnell and Pence, gone along with Trump, he'd been re-elected by the House in 2020. They had fraudulent false Elector Votes ready, and scripted VP Pence's modified count speech in hand as well, heck he even used the script.

The firewall against tyranny had slipped to just two Americans.

And we get some people in here saying, but the Dems were angry about Trump losing in 2016.
 
Welcome To The ‘Turbulent Twenties’ - NOEMA
We predicted political upheaval in America in the 2020s. This is why it’s here and what we can do to temper it.
By Jack A. Goldstone and Peter Turchin
September 10, 2020
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Referring to this heavily-paywalled story: A bipartisan group secretly gathered to game out a contested Trump-Biden election. It wasn’t pretty - The Boston Globe

So I'll quote from the Noema article.
The upcoming election therefore offers several outcomes that could trigger mass violence. If Trump wins narrowly in the electoral college but loses the popular vote by a large margin, there will surely be massive demonstrations protesting the outcome, calling it illegitimate and demanding allegiance to the will of the majority of Americans. Trump may then be tempted to call in federal forces to put down these protests (as in Portland), which may in turn, as in Portland, provoke even larger uprisings.

If Trump loses, he is likely to contest the outcome as a “rigged” election. But that action will again lead to massive popular protests, this time to insist that the election results be honored. If Trump again puts federal security forces in the streets, governors may ask their state troopers or even national guard to protect their citizens and defend the Constitution. Or Trump may call on his many armed civilian supporters to defend their “all time favorite president” (as he put it) against so-called “liberal tyranny.”
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I've bolded the part that actually happened.
Many observers, based on precedents in other countries that teetered between democracy and authoritarianism, have argued that the only way forward is with a massive victory by the Democratic Party. But even that might not be sufficient. Trump might still call an overwhelming Biden victory “obviously rigged,” saying such a large victory is impossible given his base of support and claiming it was due to millions of fraudulent mail-in ballots.
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Something like that recently happened in Florida: Pro-Trump candidate in Florida is blaming election fraud for his humiliating defeat - Raw Story - Celebrating 18 Years of Independent Journalism Republican Jason Mariner lost to Democrat Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick nearly 4 to 1, a very typical margin for that district, but he called it fraud.
Or if he fears certain defeat, Trump might look for ways to postpone the election, whether due to the coronavirus pandemic or other pretext, a possibility that Trump has tweeted about and that came up in a contentious Congressional hearing on July 28. But that too would almost certainly trigger nationwide protests and possibly end up pitting anti-Trump protestors against federal forces or in violent clashes with Trump supporters.

Even if Biden appears to have achieved a large victory, much of the American public has now been instructed, and perhaps persuaded, that this result could only be due to a flawed election.
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That also has happened.
Do Republicans really believe the Big Lie about the 2020 election? - The Washington Post
"Do Republicans really believe Trump won the 2020 election? Our research suggests that they do."
Nevertheless, the vast majority of Republican voters say they agree with Trump’s unsubstantiated claims that the election was stolen. In our most recent University of Massachusetts at Amherst poll, fielded online Dec. 14-20 by YouGov among a nationally representative sample of the U.S. voting-age population, only 21 percent of Republicans say Joe Biden’s victory was legitimate. This is nearly identical to what we found in our April poll, in which just 19 percent of Republicans said Biden was legitimately elected. Other universities, media outlets and polling firms have found nearly identical results.
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Jason Harvestdancer said:
The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
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Neither of which are relevant.

There were people who didn't understand that the U.S. electorate doesn't choose the president. They thought we were more democratic than we actually are. Hillary Clinton got the most votes from the U.S. electorate. Trump got the most votes from the EC. He won the White House, because the Electoral College is empowered to overrule the American people.

The Steele Dossier and such are just examples of foreign governments intruding in U.S. politics. It's not like we don't do it. The problem is hypocrisy. We overthrow other governments for our purposes, but when Putin helps get a pro-Russian president elected for his purposes it's a problem.

Except, of course, for the USonians who prefer that President. Then, they don't have a problem with our enemies helping get a candidate into. That's one of the most inexplicable things about conservative Christian Trump supporters.

Those people used to consider Russia the evil empire. Since Putin helped get Trump elected Putin and Russia are great people! An anti-religious, pro-abortion, anti-democracy, violent leader of the KGB, Russian oligarchy billionaire became a Trump supporter. Suddenly, conservative Christians don't have a problem with any of that.

What's up with that?

Tom
 
The issue isn't whether there were claims from the losing side that there had been fraud, inaccuracies, or even cheating; The issue is that this time the loser didn't drop their claim for the good of the country, well before the inauguration of the new president.

To continue to undermine the president elect, after he has become the president in fact, is so clearly doing more harm than good to your country that every losing candidate has avoided doing it.

Except one.
 
bilby said:
The issue isn't whether there were claims from the losing side that there had been fraud, inaccuracies, or even cheating; The issue is that this time the loser didn't drop their claim for the good of the country, well before the inauguration of the new president.

To continue to undermine the president elect, after he has become the president in fact, is so clearly doing more harm than good to your country that every losing candidate has avoided doing it.

Except one.
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Absolutey wrong.

The problem is Trump didn’t take any of these claims to court that amounted to more than a dozen of so votes, I believe mostly in Arizona.

All of the grandiose claims, the campaign lawyers were strongly stating to the courts they were not arguing.

For Trump to make such baseless claims was very wrong. To repeatedly do so and never take a single one to court, but holding fake ‘legislative hearings’ at a hotel is an abomination of democracy.

And then we have his behavior on 1/6 which should have pit him in prison, but the GOP has lost control of the monster base they created.
 
Russia Stole The Presidency. The Electoral College Can Take It Back - Huff Post

Nah, nobody here would ever consider Huffington Post to be something resembling mainstream, right?

How Close Did Russia Really Come to Hacking the 2016 Election? - Politico

Another notoriously right-wing site.

Maddow explains why Putin's Russia hacked the 2016 election - MSNBC

And yet another right-wing site with a right-wing host.

Poll: 60 percent of Americans say Russia meddled in 2016 election

Such a small portion of the American public.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Russia Stole The Presidency. The Electoral College Can Take It Back - Huff Post

Nah, nobody here would ever consider Huffington Post to be something resembling mainstream, right?

How Close Did Russia Really Come to Hacking the 2016 Election? - Politico

Another notoriously right-wing site.

Maddow explains why Putin's Russia hacked the 2016 election - MSNBC

And yet another right-wing site with a right-wing host.

Poll: 60 percent of Americans say Russia meddled in 2016 election

Such a small portion of the American public.
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Only one of those mentions a stolen election. The others are about hacking and meddling which did occur.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Russia Stole The Presidency. The Electoral College Can Take It Back - Huff Post

Nah, nobody here would ever consider Huffington Post to be something resembling mainstream, right?

How Close Did Russia Really Come to Hacking the 2016 Election? - Politico

Another notoriously right-wing site.

Maddow explains why Putin's Russia hacked the 2016 election - MSNBC

And yet another right-wing site with a right-wing host.

Poll: 60 percent of Americans say Russia meddled in 2016 election

Such a small portion of the American public.
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Russia did meddle in the election. Hackers stole documents, provided them to Wikileaks, who leaked them at strategic times to either harm Clinton or provide cover for Trump. This is all established fact. There is no evidence Russia "stole" the election via hacking anything to change vote counts.

The Politico article was about an actual hack into the system and what steps are needed to address security of the system.
 
Big difference between claiming that Russia meddled, hacked, and leaked versus claiming that the Democrats fabricated enough fake votes to literally steal the election.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
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Um, there's a big difference between claims o
Jason Harvestdancer said:
A tentative "yes" to the other elections referenced. There was a significant portion of the population that thought Putin was behind Trump stealing the 2016 election.

The only flaw is that there isn't a lot of overlap between the people who think 2016 was stolen and the people who think 2020 was stolen. Both had significant numbers, but little overlap.
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There is a big difference between alleging widespread misinformation campaigns and hacking of opponents' emails by a foreign power and alleging widespread, systemic ballot tampering by foreign and/ or domestic actors. The first alleges that voters may well have voted based on mistaken beliefs but that their votes were counted accurately; the second alleges that voters' actual votes (the bedrock of elective democracy) were systematically and effectively not counted accurately. The second claim, if believed. undermines faith in a polity's democratic system and the legitimacy of the result, far more thoroughly.
 
jab said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
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Um, there's a big difference between claims o
Jason Harvestdancer said:
A tentative "yes" to the other elections referenced. There was a significant portion of the population that thought Putin was behind Trump stealing the 2016 election.

The only flaw is that there isn't a lot of overlap between the people who think 2016 was stolen and the people who think 2020 was stolen. Both had significant numbers, but little overlap.
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There is a big difference between alleging widespread misinformation campaigns and hacking of opponents' emails by a foreign power and alleging widespread, systemic ballot tampering by foreign and/ or domestic actors. The first alleges that voters may well have voted based on mistaken beliefs but that their votes were counted accurately; the second alleges that voters' actual votes (the bedrock of elective democracy) were systematically and effectively not counted accurately. The second claim, if believed. undermines faith in a polity's democratic system and the legitimacy of the result, far more thoroughly.
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C'mon. You know some people don't do nuance.
 
So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.

You just claim it was from radical right-wing shill sites like MSNBC and radical right-wing talking heads such as Rachel Maddow.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.
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I don't think there's a significant portion of the public who believes this.

And I think that the difference is the crux of the matter.

A significant portion of the public believes that Trump was elected due to Putin's interference. They don't question the result, but are unhappy about the events that led to a result they didn't like.

Whereas a significant portion of those upset about Biden's victory believe that he was not elected.

That's an important difference in position. It's the difference between claiming that a winning team scored more goals because they cheated, and claiming that a winning team scored fewer goals and then lied about how many goals they scored.

One is plausible; The other is batshit crazy.
 
So polled Republican voters are in majority in disfavor of voting for anyone that suggests the 2020 election wasn't stolen by Biden.

article said:
Despite a mountain of evidence showing the 2020 presidential contest wasn’t rigged against Donald Trump, nearly 6 in 10 Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (57 percent) now say they will not vote in upcoming elections for any candidate who admits that Joe Biden won the presidency "fair and square."

Only 17 percent say they would consider voting for a candidate who accurately characterizes Biden’s victory as legitimate.
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It is a damn virus.

article said:
Likewise, if the GOP wins control of Congress in November, 56 percent of Republicans say they want the party to launch yet another investigation of the 2020 presidential election — twice the number (28 percent) who say the opposite.
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As a reminder, Trump's Campaign contested "election fraud" in the courts ZERO times.
 
We need only read Barbos’ posts to understand how easy it is to get people to believe absurdities. And as Voltaire (?) pointed out, once they believe absurdities, their willingness to commit atrocities is soon to follow.
This country is so full of stupid and lazy, our fate is all but sealed.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference
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Nope. Trump WAS actually elected and everyone knows it. The most left-leaning “fake news” media agree. That disinformation was a major contributor to his victory, is likewise not in question.
Your false equivalence reeks of desperation to find Democrats as deluded as trumpsuckers who believe The Big Lie.
Come to think of it, you might be one of them.
Who won the 2020 presidential election, Jason?
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.
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Who is the "you" you are addressing?
Jason Harvestdancer said:
You just claim it was from radical right-wing shill sites like MSNBC and radical right-wing talking heads such as Rachel Maddow.
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Literally no one has claimed that except you.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.

The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
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Is English your native language? An election outcome can be changed by disinformation campaigns. But can you point to anyone saying "Trump was never actually elected" ?

ETA: I just noticed that Elixir made the same obvious point. Why was Jason confused about this? :confused:
 
Swammerdami said:
But can you point to anyone saying "Trump was never actually elected" ?
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No, but it’s easy to find right wing talking head trumpsuckers who will tell you (among other lies) that “lib’ruls” think Cheato was never elected.
Obviously Jason reveres such “sources”.
 
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