And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[TomC]

It is, unfortunately understandable as to why the woman initially objected.

What's unfortunate is that women need to be so on guard. But they do.

Most men aren't sexual predators. But most sexual predators are men.

And even if those predators are a small percentage of men, the damage that they cause is huge.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Puritan bullshit.

Oppressed people don't owe society perfect behavior in trade for their basic rights and safety. In fact, "following the rules" gets you shanked just as easily as breaking them, as this case aptly demonstrates. And then when a crime inevitably takes place, some new rule is invented post facto to justify beating you. We have to take action to protect ourselves, whether or not it makes the neighbors "feel comfortable" for us to do so.

Especially if that action isn't that wild in the first place. Just living a normal life - camping, drinking, going out with friends, going to the bathroom when we need to pee, going to school, working, working out - is not and should not be considered unreasonable to begin with. The list of things we're supposed to not do in order not to rile the straights just gets longer and longer the more you try to comply with it, and it often contradicts itself.

500 new pieces of legislation aimed at trans people this year alone, and you people really think the targets of that avalanche will be fine if they just shut up and take it "politely"?

I, for one, think that Ruiz owed no one anything, beyond the explanation for why he was in the women’s restroom. It is extremely regrettable—extremely wrong! that was where he was directed.

It is, unfortunately understandable as to why the woman initially objected. Most women probably would have although maybe not that many would have spoken out.

Unfortunately, women must always always always be on guard against predators. This includes trans women. And extends to all trans Indy usuals and everyone in the LGBTQ+ community.

In case it didn’t come across, I am heart sick at what happened here. Ruiz should have absolutely been able to safely go to the bathroom he felt most comfortable using.

Just a nitpick, he was told to go in that bathroom... for years.

 

[TomC]

Just a nitpick, he was told to go in that bathroom... for years.

I don't really see that as a nitpick. I see it as rather important.

My understanding of the story was that he started going there when he was little.
A girl.
Then, at 12, he transitioned. There, in front of God and everyone. I presumed that meant he transitioned to the men's facilities.
Then, as per the OP, the laws were passed and he was "advised" to use the sex appropriate bathrooms. I thought that was a recent development. The OP implied it was. Here at the beginning of the first camping season since Ohio became, ya know, stupid, I thought all this happened in 2023.
Not last July.

The OP didn't mention that the incident happened last summer, the demand for "justice" happened much more recently. I really don't know.

But there is a bit of a bright spot. The authors of the OP had to go back almost a year to find a story that fit their agenda. Nice to feel confident that such nonsense is so rare.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Puritan bullshit.

Oppressed people don't owe society perfect behavior in trade for their basic rights and safety. In fact, "following the rules" gets you shanked just as easily as breaking them, as this case aptly demonstrates. And then when a crime inevitably takes place, some new rule is invented post facto to justify beating you. We have to take action to protect ourselves, whether or not it makes the neighbors "feel comfortable" for us to do so.

Especially if that action isn't that wild in the first place. Just living a normal life - camping, drinking, going out with friends, going to the bathroom when we need to pee, going to school, working, working out - is not and should not be considered unreasonable to begin with. The list of things we're supposed to not do in order not to rile the straights just gets longer and longer the more you try to comply with it, and it often contradicts itself.

500 new pieces of legislation aimed at trans people this year alone, and you people really think the targets of that avalanche will be fine if they just shut up and take it "politely"?

I, for one, think that Ruiz owed no one anything, beyond the explanation for why he was in the women’s restroom. It is extremely regrettable—extremely wrong! that was where he was directed.

It is, unfortunately understandable as to why the woman initially objected. Most women probably would have although maybe not that many would have spoken out.

Unfortunately, women must always always always be on guard against predators. This includes trans women. And extends to all trans Indy usuals and everyone in the LGBTQ+ community.

In case it didn’t come across, I am heart sick at what happened here. Ruiz should have absolutely been able to safely go to the bathroom he felt most comfortable using.

Just a nitpick, he was told to go in that bathroom... for years.

Yes, that’s absolutely the heart of what was so wrong and instigated this terrible incident.

I did not mean to imply that he made that choice.

 

[Politesse]

You are completely and utterly mistaking the point that is being made. What happened wasn't right, few are suggesting it was. Others have noted the issue of filters caused by presumptions. Or this was a flat out bigoted reaction, we aren't certain. The press stopped reporting on it, and it seemed only Ruiz's family was interested in talking. Any violence against Ruiz was wrong and should have been illegal. The trouble is, the only stuff the police witnessed was Ruiz's reaction to the nonsense... and it wasn't particularly his best.

Why would his reaction be "the best"? Why should it be? How do you react when you're assaulted by a gang of strangers?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are completely and utterly mistaking the point that is being made. What happened wasn't right, few are suggesting it was. Others have noted the issue of filters caused by presumptions. Or this was a flat out bigoted reaction, we aren't certain. The press stopped reporting on it, and it seemed only Ruiz's family was interested in talking. Any violence against Ruiz was wrong and should have been illegal. The trouble is, the only stuff the police witnessed was Ruiz's reaction to the nonsense... and it wasn't particularly his best.

Why would his reaction be "the best"? Why should it be? How do you react when you're assaulted by a gang of strangers?

I'm glad you agree.

 

[Politesse]

You are completely and utterly mistaking the point that is being made. What happened wasn't right, few are suggesting it was. Others have noted the issue of filters caused by presumptions. Or this was a flat out bigoted reaction, we aren't certain. The press stopped reporting on it, and it seemed only Ruiz's family was interested in talking. Any violence against Ruiz was wrong and should have been illegal. The trouble is, the only stuff the police witnessed was Ruiz's reaction to the nonsense... and it wasn't particularly his best.

Why would his reaction be "the best"? Why should it be? How do you react when you're assaulted by a gang of strangers?

I'm glad you agree.

WIth what? He had every right to be angry. And drink on a camping trip. And use the bathroom. The only reason any of these things are under review, let alone being equated to actual crimes with a shitty "both sides messed up" schtick, is because he's trans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are completely and utterly mistaking the point that is being made. What happened wasn't right, few are suggesting it was. Others have noted the issue of filters caused by presumptions. Or this was a flat out bigoted reaction, we aren't certain. The press stopped reporting on it, and it seemed only Ruiz's family was interested in talking. Any violence against Ruiz was wrong and should have been illegal. The trouble is, the only stuff the police witnessed was Ruiz's reaction to the nonsense... and it wasn't particularly his best.

Why would his reaction be "the best"? Why should it be? How do you react when you're assaulted by a gang of strangers?

I'm glad you agree.

WIth what? He had every right to be angry. And drink on a camping trip. And use the bathroom.

Exactly. You agreed he wasn't at his best, and then list a bunch of reasons why. None of this is in dispute. So I'm uncertain why you think it is disputed.

What could be up for dispute is why no charges seemingly werre pressed on the people that started it... other than they had no interest in actually investigating it because it'd require a lot of work trying to figure out who was there to interview people, and it was a lot easier to get Ruiz on disorderly conduct because the Police were there when that part was occurring.

What is up for dispute is why the police were ignorant of what started this in the first place, as if that was wholly irrelevant to what they witnessed. Just some drunk belligerent Hispanic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

It was inevitable because there are enough jackasses in the world who think they can use violence against others when no violence is necessary.

I was referring to the more general case of an obviously-male person in a female restroom. It's just the three jackasses turned it into a criminal matter, otherwise the police would have just told her that his actions were proper, no crime was committed--and we wouldn't hear about it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Obviously the trans man did nothing wrong. Not do I think that the woman who was so alarmed did anything wrong under the circumstances as she perceived them. Like it or not. (And believe me: I do not like it at all) women have all grown up to fear being attacked by strange men invading their private spaces. Yes, most people who are attacked by someone they know but still, stranger attacks do happen. Women who have been attacked are often criticized for not crying out, shouting no! or fighting back. The woman in this article did exactly as she was conditioned to do.

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

I would argue that so did the three men who attacked the trans man—who had also done nothing wrong!!. Those men thought they were defending a woman who was being victimized. I don’t see that 3 men needed to beat up a third. I certainly sympathize with the trans man who was forced to defend himself.

The three men did do something wrong--used force where none was warranted.

This is a horrible situation but: the person(s) who did wrong were whoever made the ruling that trans individuals need to use the restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth. I hope that sincere apologies are issued and accepted all around and that there is prompt action correcting the terrible miscarriage of justice of forcing people to use public restrooms that are incongruent with their appearance.

Are you going to apologize to yourself? Because you've been arguing for use-your-own-gender laws. We keep pointing out the flip side to this and you stick your fingers in your ears. Rather than MTFs that you generally would never notice you get FTMs and the very issue you tried to avoid.

I’m thrilled for you, Loren, that you are totally comfortable in gender neutral bathrooms and with public nudity. That’s great—for you.

You're missing the point. This is a leopard ate my face situation. You want no MTFs in the women's room--you get FTMs instead.

You did not start fending off sexual advances long before you even thought if your first kiss. You were never told your skirt was too long or too short and that if girls could wear pants to school, it would signal the moral failing of our nation.

You're just repeating your fears--you're not addressing the problem.

This is a significantly different scenario than a women’s locker room where women commonly shown in open showers and where we are now told that we must expect and accept someone with a male appearing body standing next to us in the shower and we are bigots akin to racists and Nazis if we object.

So you want the transgendered to stay out of society. Female-with-penis or male-with-vagina, pick one.

It’s the same damn scenario, Loren: women encountering someone who appears male in a women’s only space and freaking out. As I predicted would happen.

The trans man involved was forced into a situation that was threatening to women and resulted in violence towards himself. This could have been prevented if he had been allowed to use the bathroom that reflected his gender and his appearance.

But you have come out against that--except you kept dismissing our concerns about what the FTMs were supposed to do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Mr Ruiz was not committing any violent act when they attacked him, so peaceful intervention would have been the non- jackass response.

Oh, I agree. But they were reacting to a woman screaming in fear. They *thought* they were being heroes.

Primary blame: Her.
Secondary blame: Jackasses--when you step into a self defense situation you get the status of the person you're defending. She had no grounds for using force so neither did they.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

If he uses a stall why would anyone know his anatomy?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

I think her assessment is correct, although my sample is admittedly biased: the only times I've seen women simply come into a men's room have been tech events.

 

[Toni]

Obviously the trans man did nothing wrong. Not do I think that the woman who was so alarmed did anything wrong under the circumstances as she perceived them. Like it or not. (And believe me: I do not like it at all) women have all grown up to fear being attacked by strange men invading their private spaces. Yes, most people who are attacked by someone they know but still, stranger attacks do happen. Women who have been attacked are often criticized for not crying out, shouting no! or fighting back. The woman in this article did exactly as she was conditioned to do.

This was the inevitable result of use-your-own-gender bathroom laws. And just because she had been conditioned to react that way doesn't make it the right reaction.

I would argue that so did the three men who attacked the trans man—who had also done nothing wrong!!. Those men thought they were defending a woman who was being victimized. I don’t see that 3 men needed to beat up a third. I certainly sympathize with the trans man who was forced to defend himself.

The three men did do something wrong--used force where none was warranted.

This is a horrible situation but: the person(s) who did wrong were whoever made the ruling that trans individuals need to use the restroom corresponding to their gender assigned at birth. I hope that sincere apologies are issued and accepted all around and that there is prompt action correcting the terrible miscarriage of justice of forcing people to use public restrooms that are incongruent with their appearance.

Are you going to apologize to yourself? Because you've been arguing for use-your-own-gender laws. We keep pointing out the flip side to this and you stick your fingers in your ears. Rather than MTFs that you generally would never notice you get FTMs and the very issue you tried to avoid.

I’m thrilled for you, Loren, that you are totally comfortable in gender neutral bathrooms and with public nudity. That’s great—for you.

You're missing the point. This is a leopard ate my face situation. You want no MTFs in the women's room--you get FTMs instead.

You did not start fending off sexual advances long before you even thought if your first kiss. You were never told your skirt was too long or too short and that if girls could wear pants to school, it would signal the moral failing of our nation.

You're just repeating your fears--you're not addressing the problem.

This is a significantly different scenario than a women’s locker room where women commonly shown in open showers and where we are now told that we must expect and accept someone with a male appearing body standing next to us in the shower and we are bigots akin to racists and Nazis if we object.

So you want the transgendered to stay out of society. Female-with-penis or male-with-vagina, pick one.

It’s the same damn scenario, Loren: women encountering someone who appears male in a women’s only space and freaking out. As I predicted would happen.

The trans man involved was forced into a situation that was threatening to women and resulted in violence towards himself. This could have been prevented if he had been allowed to use the bathroom that reflected his gender and his appearance.

But you have come out against that--except you kept dismissing our concerns about what the FTMs were supposed to do.

No: I want everybody to feel and to be safe in the restrooms and dressing rooms they use. YOU would not be concerned at a naked stranger who appeared ti be female next to you in a shower.

Most women would be very concerned at a naked male appearing stranger in the shower next to them. Or a male appearing person in the women’s bathroom.

You refuse to accept that this is the case because it is not how you feel. That says a lot more about you than it dies about reality.

Good heavens: Look at what happened to this poor man who was doing as he was told to do! A woman reacted as I would imagine a lot of women—maybe most women-would react to a male appearing person in the women’s room. This should never have happened. Ruiz should never have been put in that uncomfortable and dangerous situation.

You are comfortable with unisex bathrooms and dressing rooms? Cool. You’re welcome to them. But you are absolutely wrong to insist that everyone, particularly women and girls who have been the victims of violence at the hands of men to feel as safe as you, a male, feel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

I see no form of transit involved to assess a fare for.

I see no reason to complain if she's unattractive, people would complain about belligerent regardless of gender.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I stand corrected. The woman shouted and said No man needs to be here.

I absolutely agree that the 3 men acted much more aggressively than warranted. But as I said, at least part of them was acting on instinct. They were wrong to have behaved as they did. Absolutely. But I have no idea if they were reacting to what they thought were cries for help/male intruder or if they were transphobes.

Even the woman so startled could be trans phobic but it takes a few to calm down from a perceived threat. It would for anyone here posting if they were startled.

Imagine you go into a restroom and find a snake curled up in the toilet seat. Likely it will take you a few to calm down after you realize it’s just a rubber snake. Instinct.

More dehumanization. It just rolls off the tongue so easily, doesn't it? Comparing the people you're afraid of to dangerous animals?

Try "apes" next, always popular. Or "wolves".

Or "Mexicans". Or "immigrants". It's the same thing Faux Noise keeps doing, just with a different target.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The flip side of this is also something we are seeing, cis women accused of being trans, and having the police called on them.

Having police called? I hadn't heard of that one, but it doesn't surprise me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What could be up for dispute is why no charges seemingly werre pressed on the people that started it... other than they had no interest in actually investigating it because it'd require a lot of work trying to figure out who was there to interview people, and it was a lot easier to get Ruiz on disorderly conduct because the Police were there when that part was occurring.

Or the particular police don't like trans and didn't listen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you have come out against that--except you kept dismissing our concerns about what the FTMs were supposed to do.

No: I want everybody to feel and to be safe in the restrooms and dressing rooms they use. YOU would not be concerned at a naked stranger who appeared ti be female next to you in a shower.

Most women would be very concerned at a naked male appearing stranger in the shower next to them. Or a male appearing person in the women’s bathroom.

You refuse to accept that this is the case because it is not how you feel. That says a lot more about you than it dies about reality.

Good heavens: Look at what happened to this poor man who was doing as he was told to do! A woman reacted as I would imagine a lot of women—maybe most women-would react to a male appearing person in the women’s room. This should never have happened. Ruiz should never have been put in that uncomfortable and dangerous situation.

You are comfortable with unisex bathrooms and dressing rooms? Cool. You’re welcome to them. But you are absolutely wrong to insist that everyone, particularly women and girls who have been the victims of violence at the hands of men to feel as safe as you, a male, feel.

You aren't addressing the issue at all!

If you specify people use their birth gender bathroom you'll get FTMs in the women's room. If you specify people to use the gender they present as you get MTFs in the women's room. The only case where you get neither is if you throw them out of society--while you say it's not what you want it's the only option that meets your criteria. You could make a case for all trans to use the men's room but that's obviously discriminatory.

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.