And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

[Toni]

But you have come out against that--except you kept dismissing our concerns about what the FTMs were supposed to do.

No: I want everybody to feel and to be safe in the restrooms and dressing rooms they use. YOU would not be concerned at a naked stranger who appeared ti be female next to you in a shower.

Most women would be very concerned at a naked male appearing stranger in the shower next to them. Or a male appearing person in the women’s bathroom.

You refuse to accept that this is the case because it is not how you feel. That says a lot more about you than it dies about reality.

Good heavens: Look at what happened to this poor man who was doing as he was told to do! A woman reacted as I would imagine a lot of women—maybe most women-would react to a male appearing person in the women’s room. This should never have happened. Ruiz should never have been put in that uncomfortable and dangerous situation.

You are comfortable with unisex bathrooms and dressing rooms? Cool. You’re welcome to them. But you are absolutely wrong to insist that everyone, particularly women and girls who have been the victims of violence at the hands of men to feel as safe as you, a male, feel.

You aren't addressing the issue at all!

If you specify people use their birth gender bathroom you'll get FTMs in the women's room. If you specify people to use the gender they present as you get MTFs in the women's room. The only case where you get neither is if you throw them out of society--while you say it's not what you want it's the only option that meets your criteria. You could make a case for all trans to use the men's room but that's obviously discriminatory.

I’ve repeatedly addressed the issue: universal stalls, people using the facilities that match their outward appearance.

Your ‘solution’ is that women simply put up with whatever men tell them to put up with.

I don’t recall you being thrilled with my suggestion that men quit raping people.

You fail every single time to address that many women have been sexually assaulted by males. That women grow up conditioned to fear rape and to hear, over and over again that it is their responsibility to prevent rape by controlling their behavior, including access males have to their bodies, which somehow does not apply in women’s facilities.

 

[Gospel]

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

I see no form of transit involved to assess a fare for.

I see no reason to complain if she's unattractive, people would complain about belligerent regardless of gender.

Ahh, I didn't say unattractive or belligerent I said unattractive & belligerent. Big difference.

 

[Jarhyn]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.

(In the very narrow situation wherein either the owners of the facility did not provide a third "family/privacy" shower option, OR in the very narrow situation wherein everyone who had access to the inside of the facility was carded and vetted at the door as "women", trans or otherwise.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You aren't addressing the issue at all!

If you specify people use their birth gender bathroom you'll get FTMs in the women's room. If you specify people to use the gender they present as you get MTFs in the women's room. The only case where you get neither is if you throw them out of society--while you say it's not what you want it's the only option that meets your criteria. You could make a case for all trans to use the men's room but that's obviously discriminatory.

I’ve repeatedly addressed the issue: universal stalls, people using the facilities that match their outward appearance.

Your ‘solution’ is that women simply put up with whatever men tell them to put up with.

I don’t recall you being thrilled with my suggestion that men quit raping people.

You fail every single time to address that many women have been sexually assaulted by males. That women grow up conditioned to fear rape and to hear, over and over again that it is their responsibility to prevent rape by controlling their behavior, including access males have to their bodies, which somehow does not apply in women’s facilities.

Universal stalls could be a future solution but it can't be a current solution because you can't just wave a magic wand and update all bathrooms. We need an answer that can be applied now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

I see no form of transit involved to assess a fare for.

I see no reason to complain if she's unattractive, people would complain about belligerent regardless of gender.

Ahh, I didn't say unattractive or belligerent I said unattractive & belligerent. Big difference.

Then it becomes an irrelevant qualification. Attractive and belligerent is still a problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I mean, the statement that a few will feel threatened is a fare assessment. In fact, I'd wager that most of us would only complain if she was unattractive and belligerent. Crucify me.

I see no form of transit involved to assess a fare for.

I see no reason to complain if she's unattractive, people would complain about belligerent regardless of gender.

Ahh, I didn't say unattractive or belligerent I said unattractive & belligerent. Big difference.

Then it becomes an irrelevant qualification. Attractive and belligerent is still a problem.

Yeah, just think of Roseanne Barr.

...

Oh wait, they said and belligerent.

 

[Toni]

You aren't addressing the issue at all!

If you specify people use their birth gender bathroom you'll get FTMs in the women's room. If you specify people to use the gender they present as you get MTFs in the women's room. The only case where you get neither is if you throw them out of society--while you say it's not what you want it's the only option that meets your criteria. You could make a case for all trans to use the men's room but that's obviously discriminatory.

I’ve repeatedly addressed the issue: universal stalls, people using the facilities that match their outward appearance.

Your ‘solution’ is that women simply put up with whatever men tell them to put up with.

I don’t recall you being thrilled with my suggestion that men quit raping people.

You fail every single time to address that many women have been sexually assaulted by males. That women grow up conditioned to fear rape and to hear, over and over again that it is their responsibility to prevent rape by controlling their behavior, including access males have to their bodies, which somehow does not apply in women’s facilities.

Universal stalls could be a future solution but it can't be a current solution because you can't just wave a magic wand and update all bathrooms. We need an answer that can be applied now.

The answer to be applied now is that people use the facilities that match their anatomy and appearance. Not everybody has such congruence. Nor does everyone have the desire or means by which to medically affect such change to make everything congruent. Some states are seeking to bar such surgeries or to force people to live as the sex they were assigned at birth, regardless of whether that comports with reality of the individual.

Universally equipping bathrooms with individual stalls with doors would be cheaper and more realistic.

Of course my first preference would be that men and boys and everyone quit behaving violently towards girls and women and towards those they deem in sufficiently ‘masculine’ in appearance or dress or manner. Then no one would need freak out if they saw someone unexpected next to them in a single gendered space.

 

[Bomb#20]

...
You are comfortable with unisex bathrooms and dressing rooms? Cool. You’re welcome to them. But you are absolutely wrong to insist that everyone, particularly women and girls who have been the victims of violence at the hands of men to feel as safe as you, a male, feel.

You aren't addressing the issue at all!

If you specify people use their birth gender bathroom you'll get FTMs in the women's room. If you specify people to use the gender they present as you get MTFs in the women's room. The only case where you get neither is if you throw them out of society--while you say it's not what you want it's the only option that meets your criteria. You could make a case for all trans to use the men's room but that's obviously discriminatory.

Dude! Did you even read your own post? How the heck can your brain wrap itself around writing "The only case ... it's the only option ..." when in your very next sentence you present the painfully obvious additional option?

And yes, that additional option is obviously discriminatory, but so what? You say this as though this should be enough to take it off the table, even though all three other possible policies including the one you prefer are obviously discriminatory too. So why don't we all just grow the hell up and allow ourselves to be honest about the fact that men and women are not mirror images of each other? There is no law of nature forcing us to let transwomen use a women's room unless we stop transmen from using men's rooms; that's an arbitrary additional constraint that some people conceived in a misguided attempt at ideological purity and that they imposed on a system that was already overconstrained. We do not have to be doctrinaire reality-avoiders about the fact that men hurt women a lot more than women hurt men. Avoiding that reality is a choice.

The reason we have women's rooms in the first place is to ameliorate some of the effects of a million years of men discriminating against women. So saying that since we're going to have women-only rooms we have to also have men-only rooms amounts to saying men have to discriminate against women in this new way because we have always discriminated against them in all those old ways.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Universal stalls could be a future solution but it can't be a current solution because you can't just wave a magic wand and update all bathrooms. We need an answer that can be applied now.

The answer to be applied now is that people use the facilities that match their anatomy and appearance. Not everybody has such congruence. Nor does everyone have the desire or means by which to medically affect such change to make everything congruent. Some states are seeking to bar such surgeries or to force people to live as the sex they were assigned at birth, regardless of whether that comports with reality of the individual.

Universally equipping bathrooms with individual stalls with doors would be cheaper and more realistic.

Of course my first preference would be that men and boys and everyone quit behaving violently towards girls and women and towards those they deem in sufficiently ‘masculine’ in appearance or dress or manner. Then no one would need freak out if they saw someone unexpected next to them in a single gendered space.

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

 

[Toni]

Universal stalls could be a future solution but it can't be a current solution because you can't just wave a magic wand and update all bathrooms. We need an answer that can be applied now.

The answer to be applied now is that people use the facilities that match their anatomy and appearance. Not everybody has such congruence. Nor does everyone have the desire or means by which to medically affect such change to make everything congruent. Some states are seeking to bar such surgeries or to force people to live as the sex they were assigned at birth, regardless of whether that comports with reality of the individual.

Universally equipping bathrooms with individual stalls with doors would be cheaper and more realistic.

Of course my first preference would be that men and boys and everyone quit behaving violently towards girls and women and towards those they deem in sufficiently ‘masculine’ in appearance or dress or manner. Then no one would need freak out if they saw someone unexpected next to them in a single gendered space.

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

What else won’t happen tomorrow is that women will not suddenly stop feeling fear or concern at men in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms.

What seems to never going to be happening is that men stop being violent towards women and towards men they think are not sufficiently masculine enough.

Genuinely speaking: the quickest, best solution is bathrooms having stalls with doors and laws being overturned that mandate people only use bathrooms deemed appropriate for whatever sex they were assigned at north.

Your ‘solution’ that women just suck it up and not worry about whether or not that person who looks male intends them harm or not is a complete non-starter.

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.

(In the very narrow situation wherein either the owners of the facility did not provide a third "family/privacy" shower option, OR in the very narrow situation wherein everyone who had access to the inside of the facility was carded and vetted at the door as "women", trans or otherwise.)

I remember certain medical professionals who were certainly seemed as safe being allowed to treat girl athletes in manners that were not medical treatments but were sexual molestation.

Larry Nassar was a medical doctor with degrees and licenses and certifications and lots and lots of endorsements.

Im just not gonna feel too great about a minimum wage employee certifying that anybody at all is no threat to me or my teenage or younger daughter ( or son).

 

[Bomb#20]

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

What could happen tomorrow is we could change the rules to:

1: Anyone can use the men's room.
2: Anyone who's biologically female can use the women's room.
3: Anyone who's biologically female gets a vote on what the criteria are for which biological males can also use the women's room.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Universal stalls could be a future solution but it can't be a current solution because you can't just wave a magic wand and update all bathrooms. We need an answer that can be applied now.

The answer to be applied now is that people use the facilities that match their anatomy and appearance. Not everybody has such congruence. Nor does everyone have the desire or means by which to medically affect such change to make everything congruent. Some states are seeking to bar such surgeries or to force people to live as the sex they were assigned at birth, regardless of whether that comports with reality of the individual.

Universally equipping bathrooms with individual stalls with doors would be cheaper and more realistic.

Of course my first preference would be that men and boys and everyone quit behaving violently towards girls and women and towards those they deem in sufficiently ‘masculine’ in appearance or dress or manner. Then no one would need freak out if they saw someone unexpected next to them in a single gendered space.

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

What else won’t happen tomorrow is that women will not suddenly stop feeling fear or concern at men in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms.

What seems to never going to be happening is that men stop being violent towards women and towards men they think are not sufficiently masculine enough.

Genuinely speaking: the quickest, best solution is bathrooms having stalls with doors and laws being overturned that mandate people only use bathrooms deemed appropriate for whatever sex they were assigned at north.

Your ‘solution’ that women just suck it up and not worry about whether or not that person who looks male intends them harm or not is a complete non-starter.

We are faced with the actual situation. What do you believe the law should say? Not for the future, for now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

What could happen tomorrow is we could change the rules to:

1: Anyone can use the men's room.
2: Anyone who's biologically female can use the women's room.
3: Anyone who's biologically female gets a vote on what the criteria are for which biological males can also use the women's room.

So the FTMs end up in the women's room and we get the case that started this thread.

 

[TomC]

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

What could happen tomorrow is we could change the rules to:

1: Anyone can use the men's room.
2: Anyone who's biologically female can use the women's room.
3: Anyone who's biologically female gets a vote on what the criteria are for which biological males can also use the women's room.

What do you mean by "rules" in that context? Are you talking about legislation, social norms, private facilities staff decisions?

What you're describing doesn't sound terribly different from what we've got now.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

You're still not addressing the issue. What's supposed to happen tomorrow? Refitting the bathrooms won't happen by then.

What could happen tomorrow is we could change the rules to:

1: Anyone can use the men's room.
2: Anyone who's biologically female can use the women's room.
3: Anyone who's biologically female gets a vote on what the criteria are for which biological males can also use the women's room.

So the FTMs end up in the women's room and we get the case that started this thread.

How do you figure? The case that started this thread is about an FTM who used the women's room because she was ordered to. Going by the above rules, an FTM uses whichever room he or she pleases. So why the heck would a person who identifies as a man and wants to be thought of as a man and looks like a man choose the women's room?

What do you mean by "rules" in that context? Are you talking about legislation, social norms, private facilities staff decisions?

Any and all of the above. If a legislature feels there's enough of a problem to need legislation, it can legislate those rules; but if social norms and private facilities' staff decisions evolve to those rules, there probably won't be enough people who can't live with that for legislators to need to do anything about it.

What you're describing doesn't sound terribly different from what we've got now.
Tom

If by "now" you mean what we had everywhere up until a few years ago and still have in many areas, yes.

If by "now" you mean now in areas where activist "transallies" are insisting that "woman" means "person who self-identifies as a woman" so an unaltered non-transitioning M2F who goes into women's rooms without making any effort to present as female is there by right, so women have no say in the matter regardless of how menaced by it they feel, and governments and private facilities and social norms are prostrating themselves before their new overlords and slapping "gender neutral" signs on the women's rooms, not so much.

 

[Jarhyn]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.

(In the very narrow situation wherein either the owners of the facility did not provide a third "family/privacy" shower option, OR in the very narrow situation wherein everyone who had access to the inside of the facility was carded and vetted at the door as "women", trans or otherwise.)

I remember certain medical professionals who were certainly seemed as safe being allowed to treat girl athletes in manners that were not medical treatments but were sexual molestation.

Larry Nassar was a medical doctor with degrees and licenses and certifications and lots and lots of endorsements.

Im just not gonna feel too great about a minimum wage employee certifying that anybody at all is no threat to me or my teenage or younger daughter ( or son).

Wait, you are comparing the molestation of children by a pedophile adult who was on testosterone, exactly the class of people I consider primary risks for bad behavior due to hormonally induced derangement, with the behavior of people who are at the very least expected to NOT be on testosterone?

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.

(In the very narrow situation wherein either the owners of the facility did not provide a third "family/privacy" shower option, OR in the very narrow situation wherein everyone who had access to the inside of the facility was carded and vetted at the door as "women", trans or otherwise.)

I remember certain medical professionals who were certainly seemed as safe being allowed to treat girl athletes in manners that were not medical treatments but were sexual molestation.

Larry Nassar was a medical doctor with degrees and licenses and certifications and lots and lots of endorsements.

Im just not gonna feel too great about a minimum wage employee certifying that anybody at all is no threat to me or my teenage or younger daughter ( or son).

Wait, you are comparing the molestation of children by a pedophile adult who was on testosterone, exactly the class of people I consider primary risks for bad behavior due to hormonally induced derangement, with the behavior of people who are at the very least expected to NOT be on testosterone?

No: I’m pointing out that being ok’d by some authority is no guarantee of safety. I pointed out an extreme famous example of when that went horribly wrong.

You are proposing that women blythely substitute the judgement of some employee for their own assessment of their safety.

 

[Jarhyn]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.

(In the very narrow situation wherein either the owners of the facility did not provide a third "family/privacy" shower option, OR in the very narrow situation wherein everyone who had access to the inside of the facility was carded and vetted at the door as "women", trans or otherwise.)

I remember certain medical professionals who were certainly seemed as safe being allowed to treat girl athletes in manners that were not medical treatments but were sexual molestation.

Larry Nassar was a medical doctor with degrees and licenses and certifications and lots and lots of endorsements.

Im just not gonna feel too great about a minimum wage employee certifying that anybody at all is no threat to me or my teenage or younger daughter ( or son).

Wait, you are comparing the molestation of children by a pedophile adult who was on testosterone, exactly the class of people I consider primary risks for bad behavior due to hormonally induced derangement, with the behavior of people who are at the very least expected to NOT be on testosterone?

No: I’m pointing out that being ok’d by some authority is no guarantee of safety. I pointed out an extreme famous example of when that went horribly wrong.

You are proposing that women blythely substitute the judgement of some employee for their own assessment of their safety.

The authority OKing them is specifically OKing based on urinalysis, prescriptions, and multiple doctor assessment.

I would absolutely substitute the judgement of someone like freak-out lady and the beat-em-up boys, with the judgement of doctors notes and blood testing.

 

[Toni]

I honestly don't think Toni was condoning violence. I think the point was to see each persons prospective as an ingredient for the disastrous outcome.

Yes! And to see how this result was totally predictable.

I feel terrible for everyone involved. Not as bad for the three men who could have merely asked what was going on —traumatic enough for Ruiz! Ruiz is the real victim here. I also have a lot of sympathy for the woman in the restroom. We have no idea what her past trauma includes. Speaking personally, if it had been me, I would have been concerned that this male looking person was looking to victimize young girls.

The woman and the three men were reacting out of instinct and also conditioning. Ruiz also responded with some anger. They were being very human.

All of this could have been prevented if Ruiz had been directed to use the toilet that matched his gender and appearance.

And if there were a group of transphobic men who were in the men's room and determined that Ruiz was a trans man, they might have beat the shit out of him just for existing, and people would be saying that Ruiz should have used the women's restroom, where its safer.

I think the only conclusion we can draw in all of this is that trans issues don't lend themselves to simple solutions.

Doors on toilet stalls are pretty simple. Giving people privacy in a bathroom is pretty simple.

Teaching people not to beat the shit out if other people is pretty simple but more difficult.

What about when he leaves the stall to wash his hands? Often its not hard to tell if someone is trans, though I admit that Ruiz is fairly masculine looking (in the face anyway).

So Ruiz should have had no problem in the the men’s bathroom. Right?

AFAIK, men do not typically have a strong negative reaction to finding women, even very feminine looking women, in the men’s room. Even if they do, few will feel so threatened to call for help or to physically attack them.

A woman is telling men what things are like in the men's room.

Gee, there was an entire thread telling women that a naked stranger with a penis in the shower next to them was A-OK.

At least I wrote as far as I know-/which meant just that.

(In the very narrow situation wherein either the owners of the facility did not provide a third "family/privacy" shower option, OR in the very narrow situation wherein everyone who had access to the inside of the facility was carded and vetted at the door as "women", trans or otherwise.)

I remember certain medical professionals who were certainly seemed as safe being allowed to treat girl athletes in manners that were not medical treatments but were sexual molestation.

Larry Nassar was a medical doctor with degrees and licenses and certifications and lots and lots of endorsements.

Im just not gonna feel too great about a minimum wage employee certifying that anybody at all is no threat to me or my teenage or younger daughter ( or son).

Wait, you are comparing the molestation of children by a pedophile adult who was on testosterone, exactly the class of people I consider primary risks for bad behavior due to hormonally induced derangement, with the behavior of people who are at the very least expected to NOT be on testosterone?

No: I’m pointing out that being ok’d by some authority is no guarantee of safety. I pointed out an extreme famous example of when that went horribly wrong.

You are proposing that women blythely substitute the judgement of some employee for their own assessment of their safety.

The authority OKing them is specifically OKing based on urinalysis, prescriptions, and multiple doctor assessment.

I would absolutely substitute the judgement of someone like freak-out lady and the beat-em-up boys, with the judgement of doctors notes and blood testing.

And I would not assume that all appropriate medical and psychiatric screenings were performed and appropriately used to determine whether someone was ‘safe.’

For one thing, this is almost always a spur of the moment need. Someone needs to go to the bathroom. They go to the one designated as appropriate for them. It is extremely onerous to insist that individuals whose outward appearance does not match their gender wear some kind of ID ( what? Maybe a rainbow instead of a star?) or that people be expected to assume that everyone is where they are supposed to be. After all, people have been using fake IDs to get alcohol, health care, and who knows what for decades.

The other thing that some posters refuse to understand is that some not insignificant number of girls and women have endured sexual assault, molestation, and/or rape, most likely from someone that was deemed ‘safe:’ a trusted family member, friend, teacher, coach, neighbor. To encounter someone in a women’s only space such as a dressing room/shower is potentially re-traumatizing for them, and no doubt for the person they are screaming at.

I don’t see the same level of threat in a standard women’s bathroom because the stalls all have doors. It would be highly unusual for a woman to see another person’s genitals in the ladies room.

But to get back to this particular case: The trans man was directed to the women’s rest room, very improperly. He should never have had to do this. I cannot overstate how wrong I think it was to force him to use a different restroom than the one that confirmed to his appearance.

At the same time, the woman who yelled at a (trans)man in the women’s restroom was acting instinctually and in an effort to protect women. I am not clear if, upon receiving the explanation, she calmed down and appropriately apologized and expressed sympathy or not. Fear does not immediately depart even when one recognizes that there is no reason for fear.

I absolutely do NOT condone the three men who attacked Ruiz, but I do recognize that they thought they were coming to the rescue, however inappropriately as there was no evidence that Ruiz had attacked or even mildly threatened anyone. Or even if Ruiz had: Appropriate behavior would have been to detain and call police.

My sympathy is with Ruiz, but I understand the woman who yelled.