# Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Well sure, there’s that. But seriously … if we made everything from jaywalking to stealing National secrets a Capital Crime,

Typical Elixirian straw man.
Nobody is asking for that. But at the same time, crimes like shoplifting should be prosecuted. Even if the first offense should not result in jail time, there still need to be consequences such as community service and restitution. And of course, with a conviction you have an official record and can seek a more substantial punishment if they do it again.

The tendency by many fauxgressive DAs to not prosecute some crimes and downgrade others (like Manhattan DA wanted to downgrade most armed robberies to misdemeanor shoplifting) is the wrong approach.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
It's a thing called "freedom".
You don't have freedom to steal other people's stuff (even if your excuse is "how he gonna get his money"). You do not have the right to burn buildings, or riot, or even block public thoroughfares even if you are really mad about something.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Your big source for this claim is a student project for some class. A poorly formatted one at that.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Well, you can't fill a prison full of poor black slaves without a police state.
Calling convicted criminals "poor black slaves" is just cheap polemics.
As is calling law enforcement a "police state".

Do you think robbers, assaulters, even murderers should not be locked up as long as they are "poor" and "black"?

#### Derec

##### Contributor
A question for RW pretenders to “law&order”, who turn a blind eye to the felonious behavior of their mango Mussolini and his gang of murderous thieves.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Every single right wing Nazi at the Charlottesville murder scene, every 1/6 rioter, yup. Lockemup.
What about #BLM and other left wing rioters? Lockemup? Or give them a pass because you agree with their politics?
So you want everybody at a right wing protest locked up because somebody got killed. Several people got killed during #BLM protests and riots, mostly during 2020 insurrection but also in previous years, e.g. in 2016 in Charlotte. Should by the same principle everybody who was at the Charlotte #BLM protest in 2016 be locked up becuase somebody got killed? Or only the person(s) responsible for any crimes?
Murder Trial Of Rayquan Borum, Death Of Justin Carr Explained
Borum was later sentenced to 24 to 30 years in prison.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
This trend was seen nationally, and there is no consensus as to exactly why it happened. And it gets exhausting having to say this over and over.

Yes, I have seen some interesting hypotheses, from removal of lead from the environment to aborted fetuses more likely to be future offenders.
That said, since there is a national trend, any discussion of city policies needs to filter out that signal. And compare different cities trying different policies at the same time. It would be interested to see a politically disinterested and methodologically rigorous study on that subject.

So, ultimately, your claim that it wouldn't be hard to prevent these gang deaths appears to be just bluster
I think everybody who think the problem is an easy one to solve is naïve. At the same time, it is pretty obvious that going easy on gang-affiliated crime - like practiced by the likes of Gascon - is certainly the wrong way. What message is sent by giving a light sentence to a gang murderer?
Gascón stops effort to prosecute juvenile gang murderer as adult; victim’s family outraged
It's basically an invitation to all gangs to use teenage muscle to commit their murders, because the sentence will be light.

#### Oleg

##### Me
In the rest of the English speaking world, "freedom" is the opposite of "law"; It's the condition of allowing individual people to decide for themselves how to behave, rather than having a set of mandated rules or laws that they must comply with.
I’m unaware of any Anglo concept of freedom that lets a person assault, murder, rape, steal, or openly defecate.

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
This trend was seen nationally, and there is no consensus as to exactly why it happened. And it gets exhausting having to say this over and over.

Yes, I have seen some interesting hypotheses, from removal of lead from the environment to aborted fetuses more likely to be future offenders.
That said, since there is a national trend, any discussion of city policies needs to filter out that signal. And compare different cities trying different policies at the same time. It would be interested to see a politically disinterested and methodologically rigorous study on that subject.

So, ultimately, your claim that it wouldn't be hard to prevent these gang deaths appears to be just bluster
I think everybody who think the problem is an easy one to solve is naïve. At the same time, it is pretty obvious that going easy on gang-affiliated crime - like practiced by the likes of Gascon - is certainly the wrong way. What message is sent by giving a light sentence to a gang murderer?
Gascón stops effort to prosecute juvenile gang murderer as adult; victim’s family outraged
It's basically an invitation to all gangs to use teenage muscle to commit their murders, because the sentence will be light.
Using your logic, whatever the cutoff age for prosecution as an adult is set, gangs will use children under the cutoff age. So is the solution no cutoff age - prosecute all children who commit heinous crimes as adults?

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Ah, a few years ago this would not have happened. The knowledge by the offenders that there's little cops can do and the prosecutor is gonna let'm walk anyone has eroded public safety.

There is a lot of talk of "police state" lately on this thread. It is wholly unjustified of course. In parts of the country (like Chicago in this clip) it is more like 'anti-police state' given the attitude by DAs and many other elected officials.

#### Hermit

##### Cantankerous grump
Your big source for this claim is a student project for some class. A poorly formatted one at that.
Link to a site that proves the poorly formatted student project wrong.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Using your logic, whatever the cutoff age for prosecution as an adult is set, gangs will use children under the cutoff age. So is the solution no cutoff age - prosecute all children who commit heinous crimes as adults?
There is no hard cutoff age, except that Gascon made it one. Under California law minors 14-17 may be tried as adults. In that range, it's a discretion call, and should be dependent on circumstances.
Things like gang murders warrant prosecution as adult, even if the murderer is 17.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Link to a site that proves the poorly formatted student project wrong.
While the WaPo article I found it in makes the opposite point (not very surprising given it's WaPo), this graph indicates an increase in violent crime and murder following the end of stop&frisk. While correlation does not prove causation, of course, it at least shows correlation, contrary to Philip Bump's claim. It is also very different than the graph used by those students that hides the bump, whether accidentally or intentionally.

It would be interesting to see where the yellow and red line go in the following years.

The problem with issues like stop&frisk or crime policies in general is that it is highly politicized and also racially sensitive. And the mainstream media and universities (esp. social "science" departments) tend to skew left.

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#### Derec

##### Contributor
Do you have a local store you often visit and know most the customers who go in and out by name with many of them having felony warrants out and/or other miscellaneous charges?
I don't. I would say most of the people on here don't. I would not be surprised if you were the only one who does.
There is a general fear of the police amongst these people. Have you ever met a person that one second they are talking to you and then the next second they are full throttle sprinting before you even see the police car?
Can't say I've ever had the pleasure of such an interaction. Why don't they just take care of their warrants? Seems an exhausting way to live.
I doubt you ever wondered why young black males in ghettos across America are not afraid to shoot or get shot by their own people yet as soon as a patrol car rolls around the corner, everyone cuts ass like a skunk raided the picnic.
I have wondered that. Young black males in "ghettos across America" are much more likely to be killed by other young black males than by police. By a wide margin. Of course, the latter can arrest them, which is a difference.
It's not like the police are THAT much better at shooting than they are.
If we go by numbers of bodies, the police are way WORSE at shooting than they are.
I mean year over year we're still the GOATS at being incarcerated.
You are also GOATS at committing crime. For example 5-6x the homicide rate compared with whites. That's a big difference.

There has been a decline since 2006 though. Ya think that has to do with cities being soft on Antifa & BLM?
Many cities have been. Look at the non-prosecutions of most 2020 rioters. What little prosecution there has been has mostly been federal. And even that has resulted in slaps on the wrist (like essentially no jail time for firebombing a police vehicle in NYC). Compare that with vigorous prosecutions of 1/6 rioters. It's like night and day.

Edit: Sorry which brings me back to mass shootings. The whole reason I just went there is these mass shooters in many cases don't seem to fear being seen in broad daylight. And it's not solely because they don't care to live to see the next day.
I think it is mostly that. They do not plan to get away with it. They know the shooting will result in prison or death.
Their aim is to do as much damage as possible and getting caught by the police would get in the way of that. They have no fear of the police. There is nothing in the way of anyone who wakes up one day and says "fuck it, imma go shoot YOU KIDS!".
What do you mean they have no fear of the police? Some get shot by police, others are arrested. Again by police.

If I ever asked a drug dealer in my hood to post what he's fixing to do on the internet he'd never want to talk to me again.
That's because he wants to deal tomorrow. School shooters who post their plans online do not plan to get away with it.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
For example instead of saying Briana Taylor died because the police committed a crime, we say, "BLM destroyed cities!".
It's a false dichotomy. If police committed crimes they should be prosecuted (btw, I do not think police who executed a duly signed warrant and returned fire committed any crime). And so should people in the #BLM movement who have been destroying cities. Including those like Warlord Raz who occupied entire city blocks for weeks but were never prosecuted by fauxgressive DAs.

The hell does a bunch of idiots exploiting a movement to get free shit and cause destruction
Several things wrong with this. The bunch of idiots were not apart of the #BLM movement, they are an integral part of it.
For example, a Chicago #BLM leader supports looting:
Black Lives Matter Chicago Organizer Defends Looting: 'That's Reparations'
Also, #BLM destruction went beyond looting, into arson, assault and even murder. #BLM - Burn, Loot, Murder.

have to do with a women getting killed by police because they straight up lied to a judge to get a search warrant?
Those are two separate things. This does not excuse actions taken by #BLM in the least.

Same thing with mass shootings, instead of putting our heads together to see how we can prevent law abiding lunatics from getting guns while at the same time not prevent law abiding semi lunatic Americans from getting them we scream "Criminals don't care about gun laws!". As if the criminals doing mass shootings are the same criminals as home invaders, car jackers or a bunch of gang affiliated niggas shooting each other on the streets. They are not.
You are right on that. Different etiologies and they require different approaches.
It is difficult to completely stop mass shooters who just snap. They usually have no criminal record. So barring some mental illness it is difficult to bar them from owning guns while also not unduly restricting the rest of us.

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
Using your logic, whatever the cutoff age for prosecution as an adult is set, gangs will use children under the cutoff age. So is the solution no cutoff age - prosecute all children who commit heinous crimes as adults?
There is no hard cutoff age, except that Gascon made it one. Under California law minors 14-17 may be tried as adults. In that range, it's a discretion call, and should be dependent on circumstances.
Things like gang murders warrant prosecution as adult, even if the murderer is 17.
How young does a gang murderer have to be before they should not be tried as adult?

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
I’m unaware of any Anglo concept of freedom that lets a person assault, murder, rape, steal, or openly defecate.
Does that apply to all people or just to people you dislike? If cops do those things, are they also guilty of crimes?

#### Hermit

##### Cantankerous grump
Link to a site that proves the poorly formatted student project wrong.
While the WaPo article I found it in makes the opposite point (not very surprising given it's WaPo), this graph indicates an increase in violent crime and murder following the end of stop&frisk. While correlation does not prove causation, of course, it at least shows correlation, contrary to Philip Bump's claim.
WaPo agrees with the poorly formatted student project for good reasons.
1) The uptick in violent crime and murder happened 3 years after the peak of stop-to-frisk operations. There is no correlation.
2) The drop in violent crime and murder while stop-to-frisk operations is negligible, and there is no correlation either.
3) Both the drop in violent crime and murder while stop-to-frisk operations were vigorously executed and uptick at its fag end are dwarfed by the by the magnitude of the drop in violent crime and murder rates in the years preceding Bloomberg's mistake. Again: No correlation.
It is also very different than the graph used by those students that hides the bump, whether accidentally or intentionally.
Very different? Is your gross distortion accidental or intentional?
The problem with issues like stop&frisk or crime policies in general is that it is highly politicized and also racially sensitive. And the mainstream media and universities (esp. social "science" departments) tend to skew left.
Politicisation, racial sensitivity and leftness are not evidence that the statistics and the charts based on them are out of whack. Certainly not sufficiently to say that contrary to the poorly formatted student project or WaPo's leftist article the stop-to-frisk operations made a big difference to New York City's crime rates.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
Look at the non-prosecutions of most 2020 rioters.
Who do you count as a "rioter"?

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
The problem with issues like stop&frisk or crime policies in general is that it is highly politicized and also racially sensitive.
Defenders of stop&frisk: are you willing to accept that for yourselves?
And the mainstream media and universities (esp. social "science" departments) tend to skew left.
What a giveaway of one's political orientation.

If stop&frisk barely did anything about crime, then why bother with it? Especially racially selective stop&frisk.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
I would say the simply factual message "juveniles aren't adults" ought to be the take-home on that one.

What's the point of laws that recognise the difference between children and adults, if whenever the law is broken by a child, he is arbitrarily re-branded an adult, so that the victims can feel a higher degree of vengeance has been wreaked?

A society that punishes children as though they were adults is a sick society. A society that says in its own law that it won't, but then does, is both sick and twisted.

Why have laws at all? Just let bloodthirsty relatives tell the DA what punishments are appropriate, without reference to law at all. Skip the trials too; After all, this particular insanity is applied before the trial - kids aren't just being sentenced as adults, they're being tried as adults. What effect this has on their rights to representation and to be protected from prosecutorial bullying I dread to think.

Your entire system is seriously fucked up, and I am amazed the people haven't risen up in bloody revolution over its massive and systemic injustices.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Does that apply to all people or just to people you dislike? If cops do those things, are they also guilty of crimes?
Of course. If a SFPD officer defecates on the streets of San Francisco, Chesa's successor should charge him too.

Prosecutions should not be based on politics, or whether the prosecutors like or dislike the offenders. That's why Garland's DOJ going easy on 2020 insurrectionists/rioters while throwing the book at 1/6 ones is so wrong.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
How young does a gang murderer have to be before they should not be tried as adult?
As I said, it should be a well-considered discretion based on the circumstances of the case. California law allows youths of 14 to be charged as adults, and I definitely think some of them should be.

The problem with Gascon is that he completely abandoned any idea of individual review of the case, and imposed a hard limit - anybody under 18 is treated as a child with lenient penalties for crimes such as murder.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
WaPo agrees with the poorly formatted student project for good reasons.
1) The uptick in violent crime and murder happened 3 years after the peak of stop-to-frisk operations. There is no correlation.
In a lot of cases, there is a lag time between cause and effect. Not everything happens immediately.

2) The drop in violent crime and murder while stop-to-frisk operations is negligible, and there is no correlation either.
That's where a good comparative analysis would be handy. What about violent crime vs. national trends? Vs. cities with no S&F.
The analysis is not deep enough.

3) Both the drop in violent crime and murder while stop-to-frisk operations were vigorously executed and uptick at its fag end are dwarfed by the by the magnitude of the drop in violent crime and murder rates in the years preceding Bloomberg's mistake.
Fag end? Homophobic much?

Very different? Is your gross distortion accidental or intentional?
Students' graph cuts off before an uptick after BdB took over. I would say that is significant.

Politicisation, racial sensitivity and leftness are not evidence that the statistics and the charts based on them are out of whack. Certainly not sufficiently to say that contrary to the poorly formatted student project or WaPo's leftist article the stop-to-frisk operations made a big difference to New York City's crime rates.
I am not saying that S&F made a big difference to NYC's crime rates. I am just saying that what I have seen so far does not convince me it had no effect because of bias.
I think there needs to be more analysis, vs. cities with no stop and frisk during the same period for example. That's a sort of control group.

It can also be that the policy needs to be tweaked. Identifying people with illegal guns and removing them from the streets is a laudable goal. If we can do it without violating people's civil rights, why not?
Why is the left so quick to ban guns from law-abiding citizens, but so reluctant to take guns from criminals?

P.S.: I reduced the image size for a reason, so that it does not take up the whole page. You can keep that while quoting. No reason to blow it up.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Who do you count as a "rioter"?
These guys in Atlanta for example:

Or these guys in Minneapolis:

Certainly this firebomber and her boyfriend/getaway driver:

Just some among many from the 2020 insurrection. I could go on for pages and pages.
I do not think that anybody from the first two photos were ever prosecuted, while the two knuckleheads from the bottom picture got a sweetheart deal from Garland's DOJ for no prison time.

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#### Derec

##### Contributor
Defenders of stop&frisk: are you willing to accept that for yourselves?
I am a defender of the idea, not necessarily of the particular implementation. I am also a skeptic of the attacks on the policy, as they mostly seem politically motivated.
I think the goal of it - getting illegal guns of the streets and arresting those who have them - is a good one. Do you not agree? It is a question of how best to do it.

What a giveaway of one's political orientation.
I think academic studies should not skew either left or right.

If stop&frisk barely did anything about crime,
Even if that is true, removing illegal guns still remains a good goal. BdB should have maybe changed the policy, to make it more effective, not simply abolished it.

then why bother with it? Especially racially selective stop&frisk.
Policies should not be "racially selective". Note that whether a policy is racially selective is about whether targets are selected by race, not about whether there is a disparity in outcomes. One can have a racially neutral policy that yields disparate results. The left loves to conflate the two, using the latter as a pretend evidence for the former.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
I would say the simply factual message "juveniles aren't adults" ought to be the take-home on that one.
Neither are they children. A 17 year old is much more mature, and much closer to a young adult mindset, than say a 12 year old.
And I think the law, as well as those tasked to uphold it, should take that into account.

What's the point of laws that recognise the difference between children and adults, if whenever the law is broken by a child, he is arbitrarily re-branded an adult, so that the victims can feel a higher degree of vengeance has been wreaked?
It's not about vengeance. It's about recognizing that maturing takes place gradually. It is not a switch that happens when you turn 18.
During the luminal period when one is neither really a child nor an adult and applying individual circumstances of the offender and the case to the decision is I think the right one. Certainly better than saying that if a 17 year old murders somebody, incl. as part of a gang hit, he can only be tried as a child, which he isn't really any more.

A society that punishes children as though they were adults is a sick society. A society that says in its own law that it won't, but then does, is both sick and twisted.
Teenagers are not the same as children. And the law says that it will, depending on the case. It is Gascon unilaterally saying he won't.

Why have laws at all?
Why indeed. Let's just let bilby rule by decree.

Just let bloodthirsty relatives tell the DA what punishments are appropriate, without reference to law at all.
Note: transfer to the adult system is not an arbitrary decision by the prosecutor. There needs to be a hearing, in front of a judge, and criteria for transfer are spelled out in a law. Additionally, even in the adult system, the judge can take the offender's age into account when sentencing - under adult sentencing guidelines of course. And sometimes that difference is mandated by law. A 17 year old murderer cannot be sentenced to life without parole, but an 18 year old can.

After all, this particular insanity is applied before the trial - kids aren't just being sentenced as adults, they're being tried as adults. What effect this has on their rights to representation and to be protected from prosecutorial bullying I dread to think.
I weep for the poor gang murderers being "bullied" by mean prosecutor dudes. All they did was murder somebody on behalf of a gang. They don't deserve all that ...

Yes, this is from a TV show. But in real life, around here, all the time in the news you can see stories of teenagers killing people, often other teenagers. It's not something that should be taken lightly.

Your entire system is seriously fucked up, and I am amazed the people haven't risen up in bloody revolution over its massive and systemic injustices.
I agree that it could use some reform, but I think the principle that maturing is process, not a switch, is a sound one. Maybe we need three sets of guidelines: child, juvenile, adult, instead of moving juveniles into one of the two extant camps. The difference between children and teenagers is too big to pretend it does not exist.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
Of course. If a SFPD officer defecates on the streets of San Francisco, Chesa's successor should charge him too.
"La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain". - Anatole France

#### Derec

##### Contributor
"La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain". - Anatole France
Well cops aren't exactly riche, and thugs are usually not exactly pauvre. Plus, with SNAP and abundance of food banks and the like, nobody needs to steal a loaf of bread. The is not Les Misérables. Try Gucci bags and $200 Nikes instead. Or jewelry. 3 suspects target jewelry store at West Covina mall in latest smash-and-grab, police say #### bilby ##### Fair dinkum thinkum "La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain". - Anatole France Well cops aren't exactly riche, and thugs are usually not exactly pauvre. Plus, with SNAP and abundance of food banks and the like, nobody needs to steal a loaf of bread. Try Gucci bags and$200 Nikes instead. Or jewelry.
3 suspects target jewelry store at West Covina mall in latest smash-and-grab, police say
Can you keep your own posts in mind for just a few fucking minutes?

Your snipping of context suggests that you can, but choose not to.

The context, in case you "forgot" was:

Of course. If a SFPD officer defecates on the streets of San Francisco, Chesa's successor should charge him too.
People are shitting in the streets because they have nowhere else to shit. They are homeless, and public toilets aren't available free of charge. Their "crime" is to be poor. Your snarky comments about completely unrelated crimes is a massive red herring; This is the topic YOU broached - people shitting in the streets - and your attempt to hide from your callous disregard for them by talking about the theft of expensive tat is ridiculously transparent.

Why do they need food banks or SNAP anyway? If they have no bread, Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Can you keep your own posts in mind for just a few fucking minutes?
Your snipping of context suggests that you can, but choose not to.
Quote snipping is necessary or else you end up with a wall of quotes. Like what happened when we first switched to this software and people could not deal with the interface.
I any case, I did not forget. But your (pro-crime quote btw. Fuck Anatole France!) quote directly referred to theft.

People are shitting in the streets because they have nowhere else to shit. They are homeless, and public toilets aren't available free of charge. Their "crime" is to be poor.
Mind you, my snarky remark was offered to lpetrich, who asked "If cops do those things, are they also guilty of crimes?" So yes, if cops do those crimes, including defecating in the streets, they should be charged. I just picked the most ridiculous of the crimes listed in the post lpetrich was replying to to mention by name.

Your snarky comments about completely unrelated crimes is a massive red herring; This is the topic YOU broached - people shitting in the streets - and your attempt to hide from your callous disregard for them by talking about the theft of expensive tat is ridiculously transparent.
I did not broach it. It was from a post that the post I was replying to replied to. YOU broached the subject of stealing.

Why do they need food banks or SNAP anyway? If they have no bread, Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.
Ah too good for plain bread, are they? Insisting on brioche! Some picky homeless they must have in SF.

And yes, this whole reply is 90% snark.
It's a silly subject. It's not ok to let homeless shit in the street. It reduces the quality of life for everybody else. And it's not like SF does not have homeless shelters already.

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#### Hermit

##### Cantankerous grump
I am not saying that S&F made a big difference to NYC's crime rates.
So , what were you saying here?
Your big source for this claim is a student project for some class. A poorly formatted one at that.
Will you be splitting hairs now by arguing there's a difference worth mentioning between "next to no effect" and "[not] a big difference"?

No matter. You keep casting aspersions at the accuracy of the charts because of politicisation, race sensitivity and leftist skew. Just provide links to more accurate ones already. This is the third time I ask you to do that. Put up or shut up.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
This trend was seen nationally, and there is no consensus as to exactly why it happened. And it gets exhausting having to say this over and over.

Yes, I have seen some interesting hypotheses, from removal of lead from the environment to aborted fetuses more likely to be future offenders.
That said, since there is a national trend, any discussion of city policies needs to filter out that signal. And compare different cities trying different policies at the same time. It would be interested to see a politically disinterested and methodologically rigorous study on that subject.
It certainly would. However, and it apparently needs to be said again, murder rates were dropping sharping before Giuliani became mayor and the rates continued dropping around the same rate. The trend was seen nationally, urban and rural, so it feels like it was much more an environmental thing than a legal thing.
So, ultimately, your claim that it wouldn't be hard to prevent these gang deaths appears to be just bluster
I think everybody who think the problem is an easy one to solve is naïve.
Did you tell Oleg that? He says it wouldn't be hard.
At the same time, it is pretty obvious that going easy on gang-affiliated crime - like practiced by the likes of Gascon - is certainly the wrong way. What message is sent by giving a light sentence to a gang murderer?
Could you please provide the stats regarding Gascon's record on prosecution of criminal offenders in gangs? Referencing a single case is cherry picking.

#### Gospel

##### Unify Africa
Edit: nvm Derail.

#### Worldtraveller

##### Veteran Member
You'll get a Presidential Medal of Honor for heading into the Chicago PD (or Baltimore or NYC) and provide and implement the plan that prevents gang shootings.
NYC - Guillani and Bloomberg era. You may not like it, but it was.
Was not. Stop-and-frisk had next to no effect on crime rates in New York.
statistics show that there is apparently no relationship between crime and stop-and-frisk: data collected shows that property crime and violent crime in New York both consistently fell over time, despite the fact that the number of stops both increased and decreased during the same time period. This lack of correlation may suggest that stop-and-frisks as a police tactic may be a waste of time and resources.

Wait. Are you saying Oleg was wrong, simply blowing smoke up our collective ass?

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
You'll get a Presidential Medal of Honor for heading into the Chicago PD (or Baltimore or NYC) and provide and implement the plan that prevents gang shootings.
NYC - Guillani and Bloomberg era. You may not like it, but it was.
Was not. Stop-and-frisk had next to no effect on crime rates in New York.
statistics show that there is apparently no relationship between crime and stop-and-frisk: data collected shows that property crime and violent crime in New York both consistently fell over time, despite the fact that the number of stops both increased and decreased during the same time period. This lack of correlation may suggest that stop-and-frisks as a police tactic may be a waste of time and resources.

Wait. Are you saying Oleg was wrong, simply blowing smoke up our collective ass?
Touché!

Granted, he is still new, so final evaluations are underway.

#### Elixir

Well, no hypocrisy here, then.
No.

Poor Derec. Cannot engage, just shows up to try to overwhelm a thread with fifteen or twenty posts full of specious RW crap.
Doesn’t realize that his hyperbolic crap is just hyperbolic crap, even though he goes into full pearl clutching mode when someone else uses hyperbole to illustrate the folly of his Police State wet dream.

#### Oleg

##### Me

Wait. Are you saying Oleg was wrong,
Yes
simply blowing smoke up our collective ass?
No
Good grief. Did you miss the earlier post regarding "broken windows"? Here's how Giuliani described what they were doing to affect the dramatic crime drop:

"Last year, we launched a major initiative designed to remove drugs from our streets, playgrounds and neighborhoods," the Mayor continued. "The results have been astonishing. We have been able to reduce crime to record levels. The murder rate is at a three-decade low -- in several precincts this year there have been no murders. The men and women of the Police Department are committed to driving drugs out of our communities and their commitment will result in even further historic reductions."

"Today's statistics are a reflection of every officer's dedication to reducing crime and returning our City's neighborhoods to all New Yorkers," said Police Commissioner Howard Safir. "Relentless, strategic policing, applying business principles to crime reduction, having information available to us on a daily basis, and particularly the implementation of nine anti-drug initiatives have all contributed to this significant reduction. By closely tracking crime trends, we know where crime is taking place and we can immediately redeploy our resources."

It's so simple. If you disincentivize crime, you get less of it. If you tolerate crime, you get more of it.

#### Oleg

##### Me
Regarding "stop and frisk," the NYPD was doing that in the 1990s but didn't record the stops. So the graph above is misleading.

Cops had stopped, questioned, and frisked thousands of New Yorkers during Bratton’s run in the mid-’90s. But the numbers were not rigorously compiled, and they were not included on the CompStat menu. “We’d always avoided making stops a part of CompStat,” Bratton says. “That type of activity didn’t have a place in CompStat. It was encouraging the precinct commanders to feel that they wanted more numbers.”

Mike Farrell, who began his career under Bratton and rose to become a deputy commissioner under Kelly, scoffs at Bratton’s account as revisionist history. “It had nothing to do with a strategic choice,” he says. “Those numbers simply weren’t collected.” A lawsuit growing out of the fatal 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo, however, forced the department to start keeping accurate count of stops, with the process kicking in during the first years of the Bloomberg administration. “The rationale to incorporate the stops statistics into CompStat,” Farrell says, “was, ‘What are all of the indicators that reflect enforcement activity in the command?’”

The Controversial Crime-Fighting Program That Changed Big-City Policing Forever

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
How young does a gang murderer have to be before they should not be tried as adult?
As I said, it should be a well-considered discretion based on the circumstances of the case. California law allows youths of 14 to be charged as adults, and I definitely think some of them should be.
That is evasive. You argued that having a cutoff encourages gangs to use younger children to commit heinous crimes to avoid adult sentences. According to your logic, if society wishes to avoid that incentive, there should be no cutoff.

So, I ask again, in your opinion how young does a gang member have to be before they are not tried as an adult? Given your persistence reference to California law, one might infer 13 years old. But that would allow 13 year old murders who are gang members to receive juvenile sentences.

#### Hermit

##### Cantankerous grump

Wait. Are you saying Oleg was wrong,
Yes
simply blowing smoke up our collective ass?
No
Good grief. Did you miss the earlier post regarding "broken windows"?
No. I just prefer actual facts to metaphor.
Here's how Giuliani described what they were doing to affect the dramatic crime drop: [snip]
The statistics do not bear Giuliani's assertion out. The crime drop was almost imperceptible. It also was dwarfed by the crime drop in the years preceding the stop to frisk failure.

In case you missed it, here is the chart illustrating the failure again:

#### Oleg

##### Me

Wait. Are you saying Oleg was wrong,
Yes
simply blowing smoke up our collective ass?
No
Good grief. Did you miss the earlier post regarding "broken windows"?
No. I just prefer actual facts to metaphor.
Here's how Giuliani described what they were doing to affect the dramatic crime drop: [snip]
The statistics do not bear Giuliani's assertion out. The crime drop was almost imperceptible. It also was dwarfed by the crime drop in the years preceding the stop to frisk failure.

In case you missed it, here is the chart illustrating the failure again:

Again, "stop and frisk" was done in the 1990s but they didn't collect the stats. See earlier post. That graph lies by omission. And it's really the Bill Braton strategy that Giuliani endorsed which resulted in reduction of crime. Also, "broken windows" and "stop and frisk" are separate policies.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
Democrats want to deprive you of that and place you in the way of harm by those same criminals who should be waxing your Lambo.
Waxing his 2-stage articulated bus with independent rear wheel steering, not his lambo. Way cooler than any Italian trash.
Our articulated buses are German; The ones with the rear wheel steering are Swedish rigid buses.

None of them are exactly sporty. I was going up the hill on Creek Road yesterday at 25kph, with the gas pedal flat on the floor. It's a 70 limit, so I wasn't popular with the following traffic.

There's a species of tropical fish in Panama that has an alimentary canal just 100mm in total length; Even so, it's not as gutless as a MAN A24 CNG articulated bus.
Are you sure you were in the right gear? Maybe you need to add a supercharger or a pair of turbos with 3-inch catless piping all the way to the muffler. It would make your day more fun.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor

Wait. Are you saying Oleg was wrong,
Yes
simply blowing smoke up our collective ass?
No
Good grief. Did you miss the earlier post regarding "broken windows"?
No. I just prefer actual facts to metaphor.
Here's how Giuliani described what they were doing to affect the dramatic crime drop: [snip]
The statistics do not bear Giuliani's assertion out. The crime drop was almost imperceptible. It also was dwarfed by the crime drop in the years preceding the stop to frisk failure.

In case you missed it, here is the chart illustrating the failure again:

Again, "stop and frisk" was done in the 1990s but they didn't collect the stats. See earlier post. That graph lies by omission. And it's really the Bill Braton strategy that Giuliani endorsed which resulted in reduction of crime. Also, "broken windows" and "stop and frisk" are separate policies.
And in LA, where Giuliani wasn't Mayor, we see Homicides peak in '93 and drop as well.

And here it is for the entire US, where Giuliani wasn't President. Figure 45 shows it broken down by city v small city v suburb v rural. Figure 47 has shows that this decrease realigned murder rates in cities with more than 1,000,000 with that of smaller cities.

#### Patooka

##### Contributor
What about #BLM and other left wing rioters?
What about them? You've alleged several times that police, well known in the US for their long history of tolerance towards left wing groups, treat BLMers differently than the people on Jan 6. Any definitive proof of that?

And yes, the Jan6 people should be treated differently but baby steps first. I'd like to know if you can show receipts that rioters in 2020 were charged and prosecuted differently than Jan6ers first.