Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Derec]

Do you not get the idea behind why people by ARs and not the rifle above?

I think the reason is that AR15s (and AK47s, and the same rifle as above, just in tactical rather than ranch trim) look badass. Same reason so many on the Left want to ban them.

 

[Derec]

Wrong. That looks like on open bolt semi auto compared to an AR-15,

They are both semi-auto. Now you are really quibbling about technicalities.

and definitely has a shorter barrel. Muzzle velocity would be measurably different.

Are you sure? Both Mini14 and AR15 come with different barrel lengths. This particular version has an 18.5" barrel, which is a bit shorter than standard AR15 20". Good eye I guess. There is a huge difference between measurably different and significantly different, however. We can measure small differences. According to the table below (there are others with slightly different numbers, but not significantly so), the Δv between 18" and 20" is 65 fps or ~3%. Big whoop!

You still haven't explained why you would ne a mini-14 or and SKS or any other semi automatic non AR instead of a straight forward lever action .30-30. I'm starting to think you never will.

It's not for me to answer that. I do not own any rifle. But people who buy and shoot guns seem to like them. And if they are not using them to commit crimes, what's the harm? And if they are using them to commit crimes, they can do so with a Glock 17 as well. Or a good old-fashioned .45 revolver.

I think that in a free society, government should have very good reasons to ban a product or service and would have to show that harm significantly outweighs the benefit, including the benefit that inherently comes from increased freedom that comes from giving the people choice to sell and buy a particular good or service. Right to choose should not be just for abortion, although the Left has made it just about that, while being nanny stateish on many other things.

Given how comparatively rarely rifles are used in gun crimes, I fail to see the need to ban any rifles. More people are killed using "hands, fists, feet etc." than with any rifle (scary "assault" weapons being only a subset of all rifles).

 

[Derec]

This is the kind of shit that happens when you let every damn fool out there carry a gun.

On the other hand, they should count themselves lucky the shooter wasn't an old Asian man.

 

[Derec]

So, because it is possible (or was possible) to do this with a pistol, just screw it with other weapons that make it a bit easier and give people less of a chance to respond?

It's not just possible, it's far more frequent.
Also, the Monterey Part shooting was done with a pistol, not a rifle. Just not a common pistol like a Glock but a Cobray M11/9 with a bulky suppressor.

It just reads as a "*shoulder shrug* Well, what can ya do?

Go after gun criminals. Too many prosecutors and judges are soft on gun crimes, esp. in big cities.

I mean other than accuse the liberals of trying to ban guns."

Many of the so-called "liberals" are illiberal on this issue.

 

[Derec]

It's really easy to kill people when you lock the doors so that they can't run away too, as Derec's example did.

You don't think that old Asian guy could have dropped as many people if he was shooting a Glock 17 or similar handgun, compared with the Cobray M11/9, that can also fire the 9x19mm Parabellum round?

 

[Derec]

Police make arrest in Des Moines shooting that killed 2 students, injured founder Will Keeps

A police spokesman said the shooting was "committed as a result of an ongoing gang dispute." Police have arrested and charged an 18 year old.

www.desmoinesregister.com

Update:
Court documents reveal new details in deadly shooting at Des Moines youth outreach center
It was a gang shooting. The perp (18 yo) is a known gang member who was on probation.

It is also off topic here. 2 dead, 1 wounded is too small a body count for even the most inclusive definition of "mass shooting".

 

[Derec]

I'm going to say this in the most simplistic way I can. My gut feeling says Gun violence (crime in general) is much higher in poverty stricken communities than in wealthy communities.

I would think so too. However, how would you explain the difference in crime rates among similarly poor communities? Like do Pine Ridge or Bumfuck, Appalachia have the same crime rate as similarly poor areas in Detroit, St. Louis or Chiraq?

Black people happen to live mostly in poverty stricken communities.

Do they? I doubt that very much. Got any source? Note, "mostly" means >50%. According to this, poverty rate for blacks in the US is 21.7%. Unless you want to claim that many people who are above the poverty line nevertheless live in "poverty stricken communities", then your claim is spurious. What is true is that poverty rate for blacks is higher than for most other groups. Exception being Indians.

Yes, statistics will show that black males are more likely to be the cause of mass shootings because they are highly likely to live in poverty stricken areas

Why though? Why should being poor drive you to shoot people like that? Like shooting 12 people at some night club in Baton Rouge. Poverty drove him to it? Nah. That's not a reason, that's an excuse, and a pretty sorry excuse at that.

Honestly I think Derec made some good points here about REASONABLE gun legislation. I'd like to know what that looks like from his view.

Gun licensing similar to driver's license. Show you know how to handle guns safely. Written part for theory plus you go to a gun range with the examiner. Show proper safe procedures, do some target shooting to show basic proficiency.
Not every idiot should get to have a gun. It's a dangerous instrument, and there should be standards.

And we definitely should go harder after gun criminals, particularly in cities that go easy on them. Including gun criminals <18.
Juvenile Crime Surges, Reversing Long Decline. ‘It’s Just Kids Killing Kids.’

Now, [Bronx DA] Ms. Clark said, she wants to be able to try more gun possession cases in criminal court, which would allow her office more authority over what sentences to seek. She said under the Raise the Age law, too many juveniles arrested on gun possession charges are being released quickly because such cases are typically sent to family court—and some of those minors are going on to commit more serious crimes or are being murdered themselves.
Her office cited the case of a 17-year-old who was arrested three separate times on gun possession charges and sent to family court each time, before being arrested for murder, all within 12 months.
“I don’t want to lock them up and throw away the key because they’re young. But at the same time, they have to know the consequences for their actions,” said Ms. Clark.

Arrested three times, and pretty much gotten away with it each time because of his age. Any surprise he feels he can escalate without consequences?
Undoing these Albany "deforms" is not easy. Same as with the "no bail" law that includes pretty serious and violent crimes and repeat offenders.

Last March, New York Democratic Gov. Kathy Hochul sent lawmakers a list of priorities to help reduce crime, including changing the Raise the Age law to allow juveniles arrested on gun possession charges to be tried in criminal court. The proposal was never taken up by the Democratic-controlled legislature. A coalition of children’s advocacy groups in New York have fought such proposals, saying that there’s no data showing a link between the law and rising juvenile shootings in New York.

I also believe that others have made very factual points about how much easier it is to do damage with a particular weapon over another.

And yet there are relatively rarely used for crime, compared with handguns.

That's all my wine drinking ass got for now.

I hope you enjoyed it!

 

[Derec]

The point being the thing that should be dealt with is the thing that led to the deaths, the guns.

Or rather the gunmen (and women).

No one is saying maybe the hyenas need better mental health care options.

Well, I certainly do not propose we take all their teeth out like Michonne did with her two pet walkers ...

That said, of course, hyenas do not need mental health care. They were just hunting for some food. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Derec]

The suspect, 67-year-old Half Moon Bay resident Zhao Chunli, was taken into custody at about 4:40 p.m. after he was found in his vehicle in the parking lot of the Half Moon Bay substation, the sheriff's office said. He was taken into custody without incident and a weapon was found in his car.

The victims are Chinese farmworkers, Half Moon Bay Councilmember Debbie Ruddock said.

A banner week for older Asian mass shooters in California. Talk about a statistical anomaly - mass shooters are usually young and rarely Asian.
Unfortunately for their victims, both of them were far better shots than your garden variety mass shooter.

 

[Derec]

Samuel Parsons Salas
Convicted of killing two people in a home invasion in 2014 and on parole.
Life inprisonment, hopefully....

Should have been life imprisonment for that. I guess he wasn't the triggerman, but felony murder rule should still apply, right?
And 8 years is too short for a home invasion armed robbery even if nobody were shot.

Duct tape a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin...

No, too fast. Brain is destroyed immediately.

 

[Derec]

Yes. It proves that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Just like the NRA has been saying all along.

Even if the good guy has to arm himself with the bad guy's gun.
Btw, check out the size of that suppressor. It's longer than the gun! Compensate much?
I wonder why he had it attached. His plan did not really rely on stealth.

 

[Derec]

It is interesting how guns aren't the problem, and conservatives demonstrate this point by mentioning places where guns and violence is an issue.

Most gun owners do not use them to engage in crime.
The problem is, as always, people.

 

[Derec]

So tired of blacks whining about inequality. I mean, we gave you guys an unlimited supply of poverty and firearms.

... >50 years of preferential treatment in college/grad/professional school admissions and hiring. Hopefully coming to an end this Summer.
FIFY.

What the heck else do you want? You think you could have such an elevated murder rate if you weren't given so many guns?

If somebody chooses to shoot people, that's on them. Not on poverty. Not on guns. It's on choices people make.
You seem to be implicitly denying that black people have full agency and freedom of choice.
This leftist racial paternalism is pretty racist actually.

 

[Derec]

It also helps that the perp was a weak elderly man.

And also that it was a handgun of the big-ass variety with an even bigger suppressor. A very compact handgun like the Smith & Wesson M&P Shield (3" barrel, 18 oz weight) for example would be much harder to wrestle away.

 

[Derec]

If they had something better to do I'm sure a good chunk of them wouldn't be out killing each other. Have you been to the hood? where money is short

There is still a choice to do or do otherwise. As to "nothing better to do"? Are you kidding me? Can't come up with nothing better than drivebys and shit?

and they are just roaming the same 10 mile radius (if that)

Reminds me of the scene in The Wire where Bodie is surprised they are losing the radio station because he never left Bawlmer.

with other people in the community telling them that crime is the way and snitching gets you stitches? It's a black issue for sure. They have agency for sure. It's coming from somewhere for sure.

 

[Swammerdami]

The Chinese in San Francisco faced discrimination and poverty for many years. Yet, they are nearly nonexistent in crime statistics.

And then merely ten minutes later:

So tired of blacks whining about inequality. I mean, we gave you guys an unlimited supply of poverty and firearms. What the heck else do you want? You think you could have such an elevated murder rate if you weren't given so many guns?

The lefty take that black people ought to be held to a lower standard because they’re black and can’t help themselves is always something to behold.

The irony.

 

[Swammerdami]

It is interesting how guns aren't the problem, and conservatives demonstrate this point by mentioning places where guns and violence is an issue.

Most gun owners do not use them to engage in crime.

The Great American Hero Kyle Rittenhouse, for example, got an AR-15 (the only gun a teeny-bopper could legally own), and then drove to a different state to engage in self-defense against unarmed men. The innocent Rittenhouse is now a rich entrepreneur, with the Kyle Rittenhouse's Turkey Shoot video-game franchise.

The problem is, as always, people with guns.

I've appended two words to this sentence to make it more sensical.

 

[Patooka]

The Great American Hero Kyle Rittenhouse, for example, got an AR-15 (the only gun a teeny-bopper could legally own),

At the time when Rittenhouse killed, he couldn't legally own the armalite, incidentally.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So tired of blacks whining about inequality. I mean, we gave you guys an unlimited supply of poverty and firearms.

... >50 years of preferential treatment in college/grad/professional school admissions and hiring. Hopefully coming to an end this Summer.
FIFY.

What the heck else do you want? You think you could have such an elevated murder rate if you weren't given so many guns?

If somebody chooses to shoot people, that's on them. Not on poverty. Not on guns. It's on choices people make.

The choices people make are based within the confines of the options available and the risks inherent with each of those options. Often in life, decisions have a way of cascading. And with the intentional divorcing of the inner city from banks and investors, so money could be spread out where no one lived yet, the options available aren't as easy and carry much more difficult risk.

We want to believe we are all moral and sane. Of course, if the Sun nailed Earth with a massive solar flare and our power went out for 12 months, I'm thinking "choices people make" starts getting graded on a different scale. I'm reminded of what Amos said in The Expanse, about tribes/groups and their relative sizes, how they shrink in bad times, grow in the good times.

None of this excuses crime, but it really becomes simple math.

It is interesting how guns aren't the problem, and conservatives demonstrate this point by mentioning places where guns and violence is an issue.

Most gun owners do not use them to engage in crime.

The problem is, not enough gun owners do not use them to engage in crime. And in some cases recently, massacres have taken place with recently purchased guns... gun dealers sold guns to people with unlawful intent to murder.

However, for some, the solution to gun massacres is to just dilute the crime with all the other gun related deaths. Then it goes away... like pollution did.

 

[Gospel]

There is still a choice to do or do otherwise. As to "nothing better to do"? Are you kidding me? Can't come up with nothing better than drivebys and shit?

Yeah I'm serious. It makes absolutely no sense to me Derec but here's my take. Black people (mostly young black people) join gangs for protection, money and respect. It's an endless cycle where those who would not otherwise want to join one become a part of the problem after being misled &/or propelled by fear to join. The conditions in (some) black communities can be considered nearly perfect for bad elements to thrive. As far your response to my "most black people live in poverty's stricken areas" being incorrect you're likely right. I didn't intended to enter the statistics debate but rather speak on the conditions that lead to to high crime rates and high black on black crime in certain areas. I'm also not here to make excuses but rather speak plainly about what I see in the hopes to maybe get some ideas on what can help.

Edit: But this is a derail I should start a thread for.