Are we headed to WW3?

[Politesse]

War is obsolete technology.

Remind me, is that a quote from Norman Angell's famous 1909 book Europe's Optical Illusion; Or from Neville Chamberlain's 1938 Peace for our time speech?

I did not mean to suggest that people have suddenly lost their capacity for Ludditism. At least 30 wars are currently being waged across the planet at present.

But no one is winning any of them. And no one will win any of them. Hundreds of thousands of people are being murdered just to prove that you can't play a new game by old rules and come out ahead.

 

[RVonse]

--what would be the minimum, viable path to WW3 from the current conditions

Continuing to elect and hold with high regard the neocons (H. Clinton, Lindsey Graham, Cheney, Biden, Obama, McCain), conversely getting rid of the peacemakers (Trump, Carter, Nixon, Reagan, Tulsi Gabbard). Also giving those neocons strong mandates for war mongering. Voters get who they vote for and as the biggest military, US leadership is important to whether we will see WW3. At present, a specific path for the warmongers is to escalate Israel fighting with Palastines into a serious escalation with Iran. Its what these people do best....like setting up the Ukraine war after they reneged on pledges Clinton made to Russia. And another thing to remember is after Iran gets started...even the sane non war mongering politicians will be clammering for WW3 and flipping down dominoes when all else fails.

There are 2 very big differences now and back during 1940. Back in 1940 the only war monger was Roosevelt who was kept at bay staying out of Europe because people like Lindberg were successful convincing peace to the public. The US at that point was much more pacifist and neutral than it is today. But the biggest other difference is the nuclear weapons and other bio and tech devices that can destroy all lot of humanity in a real short order. Weapons that can destroy all of humanity make no sense because at best they cannot be used, yet their existence threatens the life of the planet. So why have them? Accident, emotional response, loss of reason are all human faults that can come into play at any time. Not to mention a software glitch during a period of high alert.

 

[RVonse]

I’m certain that there are those who are hoping for WWIII.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all hoping for WW3. But thus far I do not believe humans have evolved to peacefully reset political conditions any other way. Even the democratic free market economies corrupt themselves over a period of time and need arises for some sort of reset. That causes the populism, which causes the violence. How do you transfer the wealth of the extreme rich back into the middle class any other way? Most political systems (including the US) have no way to do this because the rich own the system.

The other good thing you can say about war is that it always increases technical progress in a very short period of time. That's because war is a time of extreme competitiveness and survival of the fittest.

 

[Elixir]

Why not end democracy

democracy has ended a long time ago.

How would you know?

I observe your politicians.

Which ones?
The Republicans in the House are trying to kill democracy. The Senate seems to still want to function as designed. But without the cooperation of the House, democracy is effectively dead.
We shall see if the new Trumpsucking Speaker can finish the job and force the conversion to a Christian theocratic autocracy, or if the fascists get thrown out next year and are unable to violence their way into permanent office.
Until then, Vonse and Bans are pipe dreaming about the new Murkin Trumpistan.

 

[BH]

I don't think we will ever fight a full blown World War III. I do think the age of constantly fighting small wars (every few years for the US) is upon us to make sure new tech is tested and proved capable and to give the officers experience.

 

[TomC]

I don't think we will ever fight a full blown World War III. I do think the age of constantly fighting small wars (every few years for the US) is upon us to make sure new tech is tested and proved capable and to give the officers experience.

And everyone knew in 1918, at the end of The Great War(the war to end all wars) that the age of War was over.


Tom

 

[Toni]

I think the stakes are incredibly higher than they were in 1918 or 1945 or any war since, simply because we (humans) have the capacity to destroy so much more and so much more quickly. We have basically been in a paused suicide pact since Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

What we have now that we did not before: Billionaires who have space ships. Not yet feasible for escaping destruction on earth for longer than very short term but......

Make no bones about it: billionaires want to decide who survives and it will include them and whoever they are in favor of. In the meantime, they are quite happy pulling all the strings, calling all the shots, funding whatever they choose and living a life where rules do not actually apply to them. That, my friends, is far more horrifying than an atomic bomb.

 

[Harry Bosch]

--what would be the minimum, viable path to WW3 from the current conditions

Continuing to elect and hold with high regard the neocons (H. Clinton, Lindsey Graham, Cheney, Biden, Obama, McCain), conversely getting rid of the peacemakers (Trump, Carter, Nixon, Reagan, Tulsi Gabbard). Also giving those neocons strong mandates for war mongering. Voters get who they vote for and as the biggest military, US leadership is important to whether we will see WW3. At present, a specific path for the warmongers is to escalate Israel fighting with Palastines into a serious escalation with Iran. Its what these people do best....like setting up the Ukraine war after they reneged on pledges Clinton made to Russia. And another thing to remember is after Iran gets started...even the sane non war mongering politicians will be clammering for WW3 and flipping down dominoes when all else fails.

There are 2 very big differences now and back during 1940. Back in 1940 the only war monger was Roosevelt who was kept at bay staying out of Europe because people like Lindberg were successful convincing peace to the public. The US at that point was much more pacifist and neutral than it is today. But the biggest other difference is the nuclear weapons and other bio and tech devices that can destroy all lot of humanity in a real short order. Weapons that can destroy all of humanity make no sense because at best they cannot be used, yet their existence threatens the life of the planet. So why have them? Accident, emotional response, loss of reason are all human faults that can come into play at any time. Not to mention a software glitch during a period of high alert.

You do realize that Trump wants to end Nato? The republicans are wanting the US to withdraw from alliances. What do you think Russia will do if Nato ceased operations. There probably would be a future peace; that is after Russia slaughters millions and millions and takes back most of Eastern Europe. How is that good for peace? IMO, the only way to discourage larger countries from taking over smaller countries. If you know of a better way, please tell me what you think?

Your Rosevelt rant is truly bizarre. Do you hold the same theory regarding Ike? Ike followed FDR's policies (alliances, pro-world, and etc.). Or is it just democrats that you don't like?

 

[Patooka]

You do realize that Trump wants to end Nato? The republicans are wanting the US to withdraw from alliances. What do you think Russia will do if Nato ceased operations. There probably would be a future peace; that is after Russia slaughters millions and millions and takes back most of Eastern Europe. How is that good for peace? IMO, the only way to discourage larger countries from taking over smaller countries. If you know of a better way, please tell me what you think?

No, that is exactly RVonse's "better way". Even though he hasn't explicitly said it, when it comes to Ukraine he gets all his information from people like Tucker Carlson, Douglas Macgregor and Scott Ritter - all of whom support what you just outlined.

Your Rosevelt rant is truly bizarre. Do you hold the same theory regarding Ike? Ike followed FDR's policies (alliances, pro-world, and etc.). Or is it just democrats that you don't like?

It's simplistic MAGA Q-tard word association. Rossevelt had The New Deal. The Green New Deal is bad, therefore Rossevelt is now evil. It really isn't more complicated than that.

 

[TomC]

I think the stakes are incredibly higher than they were in 1918 or 1945 or any war since, simply because we (humans) have the capacity to destroy so much more and so much more quickly.

And we're also teetering on the brink of climate disasters.

Add a major global war to the issues with the biosphere we already have and we could create the end of life as we know it. And it only takes one dumbass pushing The Button. Putin, Trump, Xi, Bibi, whoever is running Iran or Pakistan, the list is endless.

Then it's over. Mad Max looks good in comparison.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

There's an interesting article covering some of the issues:

Hamas’s attack on Israel has changed the Middle East

The US regional strategy lays in shambles, as its allies face pressure and its foes seek to take advantage.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Elixir]

There is no cure for stupid.
Looks like we are about to get a real close-up look at its consequences though.
When the House comes into session and we see which bills come to the floor (impeach Biden and other democrats, national abortion ban, national don't say gay bill, national gay marriage ban etc etc) and which get shelved (Ukraine aid and anything else that annoys Trump and Putin), we may get a feel for how much damage a trumpsucking YEC moron holding the national purse strings can do in 15 months.
It won't be pretty but it will have been worth it if Dems can get a supermajority out of Republican stupidity.
If, OTOH, Gaetz's "ascendance of MAGAts" comes to full fruition, we are irrevocably fucked.

 

[steve_bank]

It certainly looks like a possibility.

To me it looks like pre WWII. Today it is China not Japan seizing territory. China seems to want to provoke a sea or air shooting incident. I think we have a defense agreement with the Philippines and the Chinese navy is harassing Philippine fishing boats.

To me it seems the CCP is whipping itself into a nationalistic ideological frenzy with no off ramp.

Russia is trying to do what Stalin did. If Ukraine falls Poland becomes a flash point.

If Iran gives us an excuse to bomb Iran who knows what happens in the region. Oil supplies are disrupted and the global ex economy crashes. I an sure there are people in government and the military who would like to attack Iran. Conservative Christians versus Muslims.

Same with a shooting conflict with China. Global economy disrupted.

Biden is going full tilt boohie into a muky future.

 

[Harry Bosch]

It certainly looks like a possibility.

To me it looks like pre WWII. Today it is China not Japan seizing territory. China seems to want to provoke a sea or air shooting incident. I think we have a defense agreement with the Philippines and the Chinese navy is harassing Philippine fishing boats.

To me it seems the CCP is whipping itself into a nationalistic ideological frenzy with no off ramp.

Russia is trying to do what Stalin did. If Ukraine falls Poland becomes a flash point.

If Iran gives us an excuse to bomb Iran who knows what happens in the region. Oil supplies are disrupted and the global ex economy crashes. I an sure there are people in government and the military who would like to attack Iran. Conservative Christians versus Muslims.

Same with a shooting conflict with China. Global economy disrupted.

Biden is going full tilt boohie into a muky future.

Agree with your post above. However, not sure what you mean by "Biden is going full tilt boohie". I don't know what else Biden can do. Generally, war is started when a larger country invades a smaller country (larger and smaller left deliberately vague). The only way to stop this or prevent it in the future is to make it too expensive for the bully. If you know of a better way, let me know. Russia attacked Ukraine and not Poland because it is not in Nato. China hasn't attacked Taiwan because the US is allied with Taiwan. And etc.

 

[steve_bank]

Biden is overflowing with support for Israel and Netanyahu right or wrong and threatening Iran.

We have not learned from Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan conflicts.

Biden keeps repeating the manta we are the most powerful country in history, ignoring our failures in the above listed conflicts.

All the while our all volunteer army appears in trouble, recruiting goals are not being met. We spend billions on Israel and Ukraine in the interest of security and democracy, yet our career military chronically has trouble making ends meet.

As we over extend ourselves the chance for direct confrontaion with Russia and Cina go up. Entree to WIW3.

Biden apears to have commited us to militray involvement with Taiwn. We are commited in Korea. We have defense agreemets with the PI. Japa is threated by China. The Mid East. Ukraine.

Were probably over commited and Biden threatens Iran with retaliation. If we directly bomb Iran the lid flies off the Mid East and North Africa.

The US attacking Iran is Netwnyahu's dream come true. He tried hard to pressure Oboma to do it.

Alls it takes is a spark to start a laer dcale conflict. To see that alls that is required is a cursory knowledge of the last 100 years.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Biden is overflowing with support for Israel and Netanyahu right or wrong and threatening Iran.

We have not learned from Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan conflicts.

Biden keeps repeating the manta we are the most powerful country in history, ignoring our failures in the above listed conflicts.

All the while our all volunteer army appears in trouble, recruiting goals are not being met. We spend billions on Israel and Ukraine in the interest of security and democracy, yet our career military chronically has trouble making ends meet.

As we over extend ourselves the chance for direct confrontaion with Russia and Cina go up. Entree to WIW3.

Biden apears to have commited us to militray involvement with Taiwn. We are commited in Korea. We have defense agreemets with the PI. Japa is threated by China. The Mid East. Ukraine.

Were probably over commited and Biden threatens Iran with retaliation. If we directly bomb Iran the lid flies off the Mid East and North Africa.

The US attacking Iran is Netwnyahu's dream come true. He tried hard to pressure Oboma to do it.

Alls it takes is a spark to start a laer dcale conflict. To see that alls that is required is a cursory knowledge of the last 100 years.

So, I'm confused here! Are you advocating that we go the Trump way or fortress America? You want us to become Isolationist? How will the US becoming isolationist prevent WW3? Do you think that Russia and China will just decide to go isolationist also?

 

[RVonse]

--what would be the minimum, viable path to WW3 from the current conditions

Your Rosevelt rant is truly bizarre. Do you hold the same theory regarding Ike? Ike followed FDR's policies (alliances, pro-world, and etc.). Or is it just democrats that you don't like?

Roosevelt was one of the best US presidents yet still was a war monger.

From Arsenal to Ally: The United States Enters the War | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

When World War I ended in 1918, the American public was eager to reduce the country’s involvement in world affairs.

www.nationalww2museum.org

"Roosevelt searched for ways to aid the Allies without violating American neutrality".

 

[RVonse]

Biden is overflowing with support for Israel and Netanyahu right or wrong and threatening Iran.

We have not learned from Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan conflicts.

Biden keeps repeating the manta we are the most powerful country in history, ignoring our failures in the above listed conflicts.

All the while our all volunteer army appears in trouble, recruiting goals are not being met. We spend billions on Israel and Ukraine in the interest of security and democracy, yet our career military chronically has trouble making ends meet.

As we over extend ourselves the chance for direct confrontaion with Russia and Cina go up. Entree to WIW3.

Biden apears to have commited us to militray involvement with Taiwn. We are commited in Korea. We have defense agreemets with the PI. Japa is threated by China. The Mid East. Ukraine.

Were probably over commited and Biden threatens Iran with retaliation. If we directly bomb Iran the lid flies off the Mid East and North Africa.

The US attacking Iran is Netwnyahu's dream come true. He tried hard to pressure Oboma to do it.

Alls it takes is a spark to start a laer dcale conflict. To see that alls that is required is a cursory knowledge of the last 100 years.

So, I'm confused here! Are you advocating that we go the Trump way or fortress America? You want us to become Isolationist? How will the US becoming isolationist prevent WW3? Do you think that Russia and China will just decide to go isolationist also?

If WW2 history is any guide to this, those countries who stay out of the early conflict will be the same ones who do the best after all the killing and destruction is over with. And following that same logic, Trump sounds pretty good with the proven track record keeping the US out of conflict with other countries. Neither Trump nor Carter ever got the US into any conflict or war.

That being said, what would be best for the US may not prove being best for the world.

 

[bilby]

Roosevelt was one of the best US presidents yet still was a war monger.

So, looking for ways to thwart the actual, genuine, jack-booted, swastika wearing, fucking NAZIS, using every means possible except direct military action, is, in your mind, being a "war monger"?

Mate, you really do inhabit a completely different reality from the rest of the universe, don't you?

 

[steve_bank]

Trump? HsaHaaHaa.

No major country was out of WWII. Canada and the USA avoided direct war in North America.

If large scale war breaks out today it will affect food, fuels, and material supply chains. Everyone will suffer.