At least 8 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Searching the article does not yield the word "gang."

That's why I wrote "seems" and not "is".

You didn't write you were guessing. So you have to provide evidence either from someone else inferring it, like your source or your own rationale. That's why I first showed no one else was making this claim.

Shootings involving groups of older teenagers are usually gang related.

Wasn't there an individual suspect and no info about multiple groups having guns?

Does some other article say it seems to be a gang shooting?

The "seems" was my own take on it. I do think for myself rather than just regurgitating statements from articles.

Obviously you can, but that did not mean you did. You haven't quite made your case yet.

 

[Derec]

Right… assault rifles are most often used to kill people that are unknown or barely known by the shooter.

[citation needed]
Rifles of any kind are so rarely used in homicides that I find it hard to believe that they are more frequently used than handguns in cases where the victim is unknown or barely known to the shooter. So please provide some evidence for that claim.

Handguns are used for robberies, domestic shootings and suicides, which together comprise the bulk of gun killings.

Handguns are used in the bulk of homicides. Rifles are used so rarely that "hands, fists and feet" are more common. We've discussed all this before.

Personally I am not worried about suicide, robbery or my wife.

Why not about robbery? You are certainly far more likely to be a victim of robbery than ...

But the crazy trumpsucker with an AR randomly killing people just because he can, is a concern for me.

... this.

I think it should be illegal. Maybe if someone takes them up on it and mows down a truckload or two of those weenies, it will stop being a recreational activity.

I think open carrying any firearm in public should be illegal. On the other hand, I disagree with banning certain rifles just because they are popular with certain people you dislike.

 

[Derec]

You didn't write you were guessing. So you have to provide evidence either from someone else inferring it, like your source or your own rationale. That's why I first showed no one else was making this claim.

"Seems" indicates an opinion about things that are uncertain.

Wasn't there an individual suspect and no info about multiple groups having guns?

An individual suspect does not disprove him being part of a gang. Besides, we do not for a fact that he was alone.

Obviously you can, but that did not mean you did. You haven't quite made your case yet.

Again, I said "seems", not "is".

 

[Derec]

No, it's about being the weapon of choice for those who want to inflict the highest amount of damage in a very short time.

Rifles of any time (of which so-called "assault weapons" are only a subset) are the weapon used in a very small percentage of all homicides.
Also, rifles have advantages and disadvantages. Unlike handguns, they cannot be easily concealed on one's person and they are heavier and less wieldy than handguns. They have a higher power and range, but that is only a big advantage in longer range shootings like the one in Las Vegas some years ago.

About your link: it is hardly surprising that an outfit calling for banning so-called "assault weapons" would write an article against them.
We need to focus on people, not the type of weapon.
We especially should not glorify gun criminals when they happen to be black.
Dreasjon Reed for example was a thug who used a handgun to randomly shoot at houses.

Later, he was shot and killed by police when he fled from police while armed. Indianapolis Colts decided to honor him by putting his name of their helmets.

Focus on people, not rifle vs. handgun. Handguns are more than adequate to cause massive carnage in a mass shooting situations, as Seung-Hui Cho demonstrated. Banning so-called "assault weapons" would not cause unhinged people to not commit mass shootings, they would just use handguns instead.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You didn't write you were guessing. So you have to provide evidence either from someone else inferring it, like your source or your own rationale. That's why I first showed no one else was making this claim.

"Seems" indicates an opinion about things that are uncertain.

Not quite, it means you reckoned it as likely.

Wasn't there an individual suspect and no info about multiple groups having guns?

An individual suspect does not disprove him being part of a gang.

You said it was multiple groups.

Obviously you can, but that did not mean you did. You haven't quite made your case yet.

Again, I said "seems", not "is".

Seems is not the same as guessing.

 

[laughing dog]

Juveniles convicted as adults are imprisoned with adults. In my view that is a sufficient reason not to treat a juvenile as an adult except under rare circumstances.

 

[Toni]

Right… assault rifles are most often used to kill people that are unknown or barely known by the shooter.

[citation needed]
Rifles of any kind are so rarely used in homicides that I find it hard to believe that they are more frequently used than handguns in cases where the victim is unknown or barely known to the shooter. So please provide some evidence for that claim.

Handguns are used for robberies, domestic shootings and suicides, which together comprise the bulk of gun killings.

Handguns are used in the bulk of homicides. Rifles are used so rarely that "hands, fists and feet" are more common. We've discussed all this before.

Personally I am not worried about suicide, robbery or my wife.

Why not about robbery? You are certainly far more likely to be a victim of robbery than ...

But the crazy trumpsucker with an AR randomly killing people just because he can, is a concern for me.

... this.

I think it should be illegal. Maybe if someone takes them up on it and mows down a truckload or two of those weenies, it will stop being a recreational activity.

I think open carrying any firearm in public should be illegal. On the other hand, I disagree with banning certain rifles just because they are popular with certain people you dislike.

Personally, I think that so called assault rifles should be banned because of the fact that they are sometimes used for mass shootings, such as at schools, churches, mosques, movie theaters, night clubs, malls and concert venues. They are capable of committing mass murders of mostly strangers by disturbed individuals seeking notoriety or because they have some sort of grudge against their targets. High capacity rifles have no genuine utility in the civilian world and a large capacity for causing death and destruction.

I made a choice long ago to not learn to hunt or to use firearms but I see that as a personal choice. I am well aware that there are legitimate uses for gun ownership and use, including hunting, protecting livestock, home and property, marksmanship/sport and sadly enough: personal protection. I’m sure there are others.

I think concealed carry should also be illegal, along with open carry. All firearms should be registered and gun ownership should require certification of firearm safety courses.

 

[bilby]

I do not think a 17 murderer should get off with a few years in juvie.

You also don’t think a 16yo should. Or a 15yo. Or a 12yo.
9? Not if he was running. And Black.

Over here we have this completely crazy legal principle that says that nobody can be "tried as an adult", unless they are (and this may shock you), an actual adult.

 

[robnisch]

Again we must talk about 53% of gun deaths are suicide.

U.S. Rate of Suicide by Firearm Reaches Record Level

Gun suicides increased from prepandemic rates in all racial and ethnic groups, but the degree of change differed drastically.

www.nytimes.com

Red flag law? Better mental health care?

 

[Elixir]

Why not about robbery?

Lulz! Robbers don’t want trouble, they want stuff and money. I’ve never been willing to expend my life to get stuff and money, and I’m not going to kill myself to keep it.

 

[Elixir]

Again we must talk about 53% of gun deaths are suicide.

U.S. Rate of Suicide by Firearm Reaches Record Level

Gun suicides increased from prepandemic rates in all racial and ethnic groups, but the degree of change differed drastically.

www.nytimes.com

Red flag law? Better mental health care?

How to prevent?
* Don't shoot yourself

I am not afraid I'm going to shoot myself, so I am only at risk of dying from the other 47% of gun deaths, I suppose.
I also don't belong to a gang. What percent of gun deaths are gang-related? I feel confident subtracting what ever that is (about a third of them per cursory research) from my chances of dying by gun. Also, only around 16% of fatal shooting victims are white like me, so now we're down to one sixth of one third of 47%. This, applied to the one in eighty nine overall chance of dying by gunshot, reduces dying by gunshot to one of the very least real threats I have to worry about. (yeah I know, that's fast and loose calc and it doesn't really work like that, but still...)


I have been badly effected by guns, though. More than one of my friends has lost offspring to suicide by guns. I'm just not a fan, overall.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What gun crimes did they go easy on?

How about murder?

Gascón stops effort to prosecute juvenile gang murderer as adult; victim’s family outraged

In September 2017, 40-year-old Ontario Courtney’s car broke down in the wrong neighborhood in South LA, in an area that was controlled by the Hoover’s gang.
While he was waiting for AAA, a vehicle full of four Main Street Mafia Crips gang members spotted him, pulled up, and shot at him at least 36 times, according to prosecutors.
[...]
One of the shooters who was later charged Courtney’s murder was Main Street Mafia Crips member Jalen Yoakum, who was 17 at the time and had a lengthy criminal record.
[...]
As part of his reforms, Gascón has stated his office will not prosecute any juveniles as adults, something he recently touted while discussing his first 100 days in office.

I do not think a 17 murderer should get off with a few years in juvie.
The thug had already been released and has already been rearrested, this time for robbery.

Okay, that is one. Seems inappropriate as well. Any attempt to hold off on charges as an adult would need to be related to the crime committed as well as heavily centered on tight probation that carried a while, effectively needing to be provided parole to get off of it.

Mary Moriarty offered a pair of murderers a deal so sweet, even Tim Walz and Keith Ellison went "wait, holup".

Moriarty: State takeover of Zaria McKeever murder case is 'undemocratic'

Moriarty has been under fire from the family of Zaria McKeever and public safety groups over plea deals she offered to two teens in McKeever's murder. Under the terms of the plea deal, the two teens would only have to serve two years in a youth facility, as long as they abided by certain conditions. Before Moriarty took office, former Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman was in the process of having the teens charged as adults.

Are those gun-crimey enough for you, Jimmy?

You've provided two examples, of which I'm thankful. So is there a statistic on the number of murders that went punished in a manner not respective to the crime?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A twofer in Maryland.

Maryland teenager accused of plotting school shooting in 129-page document

"In the document, Ye writes about committing a school shooting, and strategizes how to carry out the act. Ye also contemplates targeting an elementary school and says that he wants to be famous," police said.
In his writings, Ye allegedly explained that he wanted to attack his former elementary school because “little kids make easier targets” and also “strategized on how to access the easiest classrooms in his high school,” Montgomery County Police Chief Marcus Jones told reporters in Gaithersburg on Friday.
[...]
Despite these mass shooting plans, Ye wrote that his real desire was to become a serial killer.
“Ye also wrote that he wanted to become a serial killer instead of a mass murderer because serial killers are romanticized a lot more,” Jones added.
Police have been investigating Ye since early March and only arrested him this week when they feared he might actually carry out these plans.

Ye's legal name is Andrea but goes by Alex.
Wootton HS student Andrea Ye's arrest could serve as mental health 'wake-up call': Elrich

Yup, this exactly why we are seeing mass shootings--it's the quick road to being famous. Being bad is better than being nothing.

And that's why I say the only way we can truly combat it is to as much as possible take away their fame. Keep the press coverage to an absolute minimum of who and what happened.

In other news, there was an actual mass shooting in Maryland as well, but since it seems to be gang related, it does not get much attention.

5 Maryland teens shot, 1 critically injured, during water gun fight for senior skip day

Why do you think gang? I see nothing in that article to suggest it's gang related.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not think a 17 murderer should get off with a few years in juvie.

You also don’t think a 16yo should. Or a 15yo. Or a 12yo.
9? Not if he was running. And Black.

To me it comes down to whether it's someone doing something stupid or whether they perfectly well knew it was serious. In most cases I think gang meets that threshold. They go into it knowing it's a life of crime.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think open carrying any firearm in public should be illegal. On the other hand, I disagree with banning certain rifles just because they are popular with certain people you dislike.

In the general case I agree, but there are some edge cases.

1) I have seen backpackers with a chest holster. When you're wearing a backpack (true ones meant for the wilderness, not the bag-with-straps that most of carried in school) you can't very well do any form of on-body concealed carry, the realistic options are fanny pack or chest. I don't believe they were open carry idiots, but rather they were intending to spend the night in cat (Costco version, not house version) country. (I have never seen someone out there carrying that wasn't obviously going to spend the night.) And while I do not feel the need to be armed in cat country I won't object to someone who does.

2) A strict interpretation of no open carry becomes problematic with long guns. It's hard to make a long gun not look like a gun.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again we must talk about 53% of gun deaths are suicide.

U.S. Rate of Suicide by Firearm Reaches Record Level

Gun suicides increased from prepandemic rates in all racial and ethnic groups, but the degree of change differed drastically.

www.nytimes.com

Red flag law? Better mental health care?

Red Flag isn't an answer--you'll likely end up precipitating the suicide rather than helping.

And we need to look at causes of suicide. I am now aware of two suicides. One was clearly for medical reasons--there's nothing the medical system could have done to change the fact that she was going to spend what little life she had left laying in bed. She chose not to. The second was elderly, she had managed alienate everyone near her except for her husband and then he died. The relationship is distant enough and she drove everyone away long enough ago that I wasn't even aware of her existence. Is there anything society could have done to improve her situation? I doubt it. (And that's not even considering the low opinion of mental health care in China.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why not about robbery?

Lulz! Robbers don’t want trouble, they want stuff and money. I’ve never been willing to expend my life to get stuff and money, and I’m not going to kill myself to keep it.

Sane robbers, yes. Against a sane robber the sensible course of action is always to hand over the money.

The problem is a lot of them are out of their minds on drugs. They may think you haven't given them everything, or that you're disrespecting them or the like. Sometimes compliance isn't enough.

 

[Elixir]

The problem is a lot of them are out of their minds on drugs.

You seem to have an inordinate amount of experience with your home being invaded/ robbed, Loren.
Have you tried making them a nice cup of tea and inviting them to sit down?

If someone “out of their mind on drugs” shows up HERE to rob stuff, they’re fucking lost already and will probably appreciate the help getting out of here. OTOH, within a few hundred yards, but a few miles away by road, are hundreds of Texans’ vacation mansions that probably hold treasures beyond imagination, and are frequently vacant for months at a time. Unless they just want guitars, our place isn’t worth the risk/brain damage to even locate, let alone get to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again we must talk about 53% of gun deaths are suicide.

U.S. Rate of Suicide by Firearm Reaches Record Level

Gun suicides increased from prepandemic rates in all racial and ethnic groups, but the degree of change differed drastically.

www.nytimes.com

Red flag law? Better mental health care?

How to prevent?
* Don't shoot yourself

I am not afraid I'm going to shoot myself, so I am only at risk of dying from the other 47% of gun deaths, I suppose.
I also don't belong to a gang. What percent of gun deaths are gang-related? I feel confident subtracting what ever that is (about a third of them per cursory research) from my chances of dying by gun. Also, only around 16% of fatal shooting victims are white like me, so now we're down to one sixth of one third of 47%. This, applied to the one in eighty nine overall chance of dying by gunshot, reduces dying by gunshot to one of the very least real threats I have to worry about. (yeah I know, that's fast and loose calc and it doesn't really work like that, but still...)

Warning--those are not independent variables.

I have seen data ranging from 1/3 to 4/5 of victims having prior felony records which I think is much more relevant than gang.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Again we must talk about 53% of gun deaths are suicide.

U.S. Rate of Suicide by Firearm Reaches Record Level

Gun suicides increased from prepandemic rates in all racial and ethnic groups, but the degree of change differed drastically.

www.nytimes.com

Red flag law? Better mental health care?

Red Flag isn't an answer--you'll likely end up precipitating the suicide rather than helping.

And we need to look at causes of suicide.

According to the statistics... guns.

I am now aware of two suicides.

I'm pretty certain there are more than that.

One was clearly for medical reasons--there's nothing the medical system could have done to change the fact that she was going to spend what little life she had left laying in bed. She chose not to. The second was elderly, she had managed alienate everyone near her except for her husband and then he died. The relationship is distant enough and she drove everyone away long enough ago that I wasn't even aware of her existence. Is there anything society could have done to improve her situation? I doubt it. (And that's not even considering the low opinion of mental health care in China.)

Well, there we go. The only two suicides that Loren is aware of, weren't that bad. Wanna tackle homelessness next?