Bigoted Doctor Fired

[untermensche]

Yeah right. I'm a pharmacist but I'm ignorant of how the process works and you know more about it.

Delusion.

so, pharmacist. Please, tell us about the last time you saw a prescription and knew the doctor made a mistake?
How did you know the diagnosis was wrong? What made you check the diagnosis?
What did you do when you identified the mistake? Who did you tell?

The mistakes are sometimes the wrong dosage. You have to contact the doctor to change it. Sometimes a drug is prescribed that has a conflict with another drug. Many times the pharmacist is the only person that knows all the drugs the patient is taking.

You're right, a doctor can make a record of their crime and hand it to the patient with the doctors name and address on it.

So if any harm comes to the patient other doctors can look at the case and will know what diagnosis was made and what drugs were prescribed.

It is not a very smart crime. It is incredibly easy to spot this and trace it back to the doctor.

How do you think somebody could deliberately cause harm and get away with it?

 

[untermensche]

Oppression is evil and it creates emotional irrational thinking in the victims. The victims do not take it well in other words.

So this young woman is irrational, according to you. All the more reason she should not be a doctor.

Humans grow and change.

They all start incredibly unreasonable and must learn to be reasonable.

You would have to talk to this woman to see how reasonable she is now.

 

[4321lynx]

Oppression is evil and it creates emotional irrational thinking in the victims. The victims do not take it well in other words.

So this young woman is irrational, according to you. All the more reason she should not be a doctor.

Humans grow and change.

They all start incredibly unreasonable and must learn to be reasonable.

You would have to talk to this woman to see how reasonable she is now.

When will you learn?

 

[Toni]

Oppression is evil and it creates emotional irrational thinking in the victims. The victims do not take it well in other words.

So this young woman is irrational, according to you. All the more reason she should not be a doctor.

Humans grow and change.

They all start incredibly unreasonable and must learn to be reasonable.

You would have to talk to this woman to see how reasonable she is now.

Presumably, supervising physicians, the head of the residency program, HR and members of the Cleveland Clinic's legal team have all met with one another and have met with Kollab and have reached their decision to remove her from their program.

By selecting a candidate for residency that they later determined was not fit for the position, Cleveland Clinic lost out on an opportunity to train a new physician; others in the pool of candidates lost their opportunity to train at Cleveland Clinic, which is world renowned for its quality and expertise. Significant financial resources were brought to bear in making this decision.

This was not a decision made lightly or with no thought or consideration for the years which have passed and how her attitudes and character may have grown or evolved over the years.

It is easy to sit on the internet and to say that there was no possible way for her to have actually caused harm to a patient as she said she would do. The reality is that from time to time, patients ARE harmed by mistakes in medications. It's rare, but it happens. While as a first year resident, she would have been under close supervision, supervision would not have lasted forever. She would have been in a position to deliberately mis-prescribe medication or to otherwise cause patient harm. Would she have done this? We don't really know. She said she would target Jewish patients. Maybe she would have; maybe she would not. Maybe as time went on, she would find new targets for her hatred. I cannot imagine being comfortable with her being my mother or my child's doctor--and we are not Jewish.

I think that Cleveland Clinic had little choice but to remove her from their program.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Presumably, supervising physicians, the head of the residency program, HR and members of the Cleveland Clinic's legal team have all met with one another and have met with Kollab and have reached their decision to remove her from their program.

But evidently, these people, many of them identified as the ones keeping a resident from killing someone, only have authority and credibility when they judge medications on a patient-by-patient basis.

They can say 'You can't give this patient Torsemide while she's dehydrated that's too dangerous,' but they cannot say, 'YOU cannot be a doctor, it's too dangerous," because reasons.

 

[Emily Lake]

The pharmacist knows what diagnosis a drug is used for.

Not necessarily. My pharmacist will know the primary and secondary indications for a particular drug, but doesn’t know the actual diagnosis. Lots of drugs have multiple indications.

If I show up with a prescription for topiramate... what am I taking it for?

Now, in many cases, a good pharmacist will know more about their customers than just their prescriptions. Personally, I trust my pharmacist far more than my doctor when it comes to drug interactions, side effects, and the reasonable likelihood of effects when I add a new prescription to the mix. But I trust my doctor to make a diagnosis of my condition. While it’s only happened a couple of times, I have actually called my doctor and asked for a different drug to treat a condition, on the recommendation of my pharmacist ... who understood more about what I was taking and what was likely to interfere with things.


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[Emily Lake]

This is not the neighborhood pharmacy. It is the hospital pharmacy.

And the hospital pharmacist most definitely knows the diagnosis. They know everything the physician knows. All the labs. All the input from specialists. What every doctor is saying in the chart.

You can't just give people the wrong medication and get away with it. There is a very visible paper trail of everything you are doing and every decision you make is being looked at by the supervising physician.

It is naive stupidity to think this was more than a very empty threat.

That’s true. Pharmacies are highly regulated and controlled environments.

And pharmacists are pretty heavily scrutinized in their roles. I think that’s appropriate.

Back on the main topic, I’m a bit on the fence. I think it perfectly appropriate to use current or recent social media or public comments in association with a persons job, if the person is in a position to act on those comments and those comments bear on their profession. To a lesser extent, if a persons social or public comments reflect poorly on their profession as a whole... there could be an argument supporting disciplinary action... but it needs to be a pretty strong argument. Outside of that, comments from years ago, or comments that have no bearing or impact on a persons profession should not be used against them in their career.

This case seems kind of gray to me. She made prior comments that call into question her trustworthiness as a pharmacist. They were made before she entered her career, but not so long ago that it’s easy to dismiss them as irrelevant.

I’m not 100% sure... but I think I would have supported a degree of counseling and evaluation rather than outright firing. At least to determine whether she really represents a threat.


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[Emily Lake]

[
If it is a deliberate wrong drug that does you harm the pharmacy has a record of who deliberately did you harm and how they did it.

Think more deviously. Consider a person who comes in to the doctor and talks about anxiety and depression. The doctor recognizes it as an anxiety disorder , but doesn’t document it as such in the record. Instead, the doctor prescribed something that is likely to increase anxiety, or that is known to frequently produce aggression and suicidal tendencies in people with anxiety. The pharmacist isn’t privy to the diagnostic info, and even if they were, the written diagnosis in the records doesn’t identify the condition that the prescribed drug would exacerbate.

A full medical review of the resultant rampage would, at best, result in a finding that the doctor misdiagnosed the condition. Certainly the doctor could be subject to discipline... but it would be incredibly difficult to see this as intentional harm done by the doctor. And the pharmacist won’t be in a position to intervene.


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[untermensche]

Presumably, supervising physicians, the head of the residency program, HR and members of the Cleveland Clinic's legal team have all met with one another and have met with Kollab and have reached their decision to remove her from their program.

But evidently, these people, many of them identified as the ones keeping a resident from killing someone, only have authority and credibility when they judge medications on a patient-by-patient basis.

They can say 'You can't give this patient Torsemide while she's dehydrated that's too dangerous,' but they cannot say, 'YOU cannot be a doctor, it's too dangerous," because reasons.

There is no evidence the doctor is dangerous.

But there is a hospital to run with potentially Jewish donors and Jewish patients and Jewish doctors.

Just because she was let go does not mean anybody actually thinks she poses a real threat.

Purposeful malpractice is not common.

A doctor has a lot to lose.

Emotions when young are not necessarily the emotions when older.

 

[untermensche]

[
If it is a deliberate wrong drug that does you harm the pharmacy has a record of who deliberately did you harm and how they did it.

Think more deviously. Consider a person who comes in to the doctor and talks about anxiety and depression. The doctor recognizes it as an anxiety disorder , but doesn’t document it as such in the record. Instead, the doctor prescribed something that is likely to increase anxiety, or that is known to frequently produce aggression and suicidal tendencies in people with anxiety. The pharmacist isn’t privy to the diagnostic info, and even if they were, the written diagnosis in the records doesn’t identify the condition that the prescribed drug would exacerbate.

A full medical review of the resultant rampage would, at best, result in a finding that the doctor misdiagnosed the condition. Certainly the doctor could be subject to discipline... but it would be incredibly difficult to see this as intentional harm done by the doctor. And the pharmacist won’t be in a position to intervene.


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Almost all the anti-depressants are associated with suicidal ideation. The SSRI's and NSRI's are.

Of course being depressed is linked with suicidal ideation.

There is no drug you could give a person that would make them commit suicide.

Hoping for that would be sheer stupidity.

That is a fanciful non-real world scenario.

When a person goes to the doctor they many times tell other people what their problems are.

It would not be hard for a physician to look at what a patient went to the doctor for and what was prescribed to see a problem.

It is a huge risk for what gain?

Because the Palestinians are crazed bloodthirsty humans that have a genetic propensity for terrorism?

 

[Emily Lake]

Almost all the anti-depressants are associated with suicidal ideation. The SSRI's and NSRI's are.

Of course being depressed is linked with suicidal ideation.

There is no drug you could give a person that would make them commit suicide.

Of course not, which also wasn’t what I said. But there are LOTS of drugs that can cause depression as a side effect, and that shouldn’t be given to someone already depressed. Anticonvulsants, for example, but also a lot of hormones, and steroids. At a minimum, there should be very close supervision of a depressed person taking those drugs. And a depressed person taking them is at greater risk of suicide or violence than would be someone who is not depressed.



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[untermensche]

It is not as easy as it may seem to deliberately harm people and get away with it.

The doctor does not dispense the drug.

Usually somebody knows why the patient went to see the physician.

And what drug was prescribed is absolutely known.

It is not easy to give people the wrong drug and not have that clear to another physician.

 

[RavenSky]

Oppression is evil and it creates emotional irrational thinking in the victims. The victims do not take it well in other words.

So this young woman is irrational, according to you. All the more reason she should not be a doctor.

Humans grow and change.

They all start incredibly unreasonable and must learn to be reasonable.

You would have to talk to this woman to see how reasonable she is now.

Nope. I never threatened to harm/kill anyone when I was young and immature.

What about you? Did you ever publicly threaten to harm/kill people when you were a younger hothead?

 

[untermensche]

Humans grow and change.

They all start incredibly unreasonable and must learn to be reasonable.

You would have to talk to this woman to see how reasonable she is now.

Nope. I never threatened to harm/kill anyone when I was young and immature.

What about you? Did you ever publicly threaten to harm/kill people when you were a younger hothead?

Did you visit a place where your relatives were being horribly oppressed and had been oppressed for decades?

A place where Jewish prejudice against Palestinians is rampant?

A place where Jews are not making threats to harm Palestinians, they are doing it?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Humans grow and change.

They all start incredibly unreasonable and must learn to be reasonable.

You would have to talk to this woman to see how reasonable she is now.

Nope. I never threatened to harm/kill anyone when I was young and immature.

What about you? Did you ever publicly threaten to harm/kill people when you were a younger hothead?

Did you visit a place where your relatives were being horribly oppressed and had been oppressed for decades?

A place where Jewish prejudice against Palestinians is rampant?

A place where Jews are not making threats to harm Palestinians, they are doing it?

Buddy: I try to stay out of these religious Israel/Palestine threads. But would you really want to have a doctor/pharamist with such biases? Seriously? Medical people are suppose to treat everyone, regardless of their religion or skin color. Have you ever read the Hippocratic oath?

 

[untermensche]

Did you visit a place where your relatives were being horribly oppressed and had been oppressed for decades?

A place where Jewish prejudice against Palestinians is rampant?

A place where Jews are not making threats to harm Palestinians, they are doing it?

Buddy: I try to stay out of these religious Israel/Palestine threads. But would you really want to have a doctor/pharamist with such biases? Seriously? Medical people are suppose to treat everyone, regardless of their religion or skin color. Have you ever read the Hippocratic oath?

Biases can change. Humans can change.

Who endures medical school then residency just to go to jail at the other end?

And people can make totally absurd empty threats when exposed to real harm being done. PTSD.

But in a hospital one little resident is nothing. Even if no danger exists there are a lot of interests to consider.

 

[Emily Lake]

Who endures medical school then residency just to go to jail at the other end?

So called “Angels of Death”, doctors who sexually abuse their patients, doctors that defraud the government, doctors that knowingly write prescriptions to drug dealers...

Doctors aren’t all that different from any other human. Some suck.


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[Loren Pechtel]

I do not support it but it is a response to oppression not oppression.

The point is not being able to escape isn't evidence they won't do it.

Every prescribed medication has a paper trail.

But not administered. If the doc substituted something else it would be very hard to detect.

What about replacing a vaccine with a suspension of thallium? The records would only show the vaccine.

I know of no pharmacy with thallium. I don't know how you could get it.

It wouldn't be the easiest thing to obtain but it has been used as a murder weapon more than once. Personally, I would try looking in someplace without good record keeping--say Vietnam or Cambodia.

There is one drug that is an element.

That is today's quiz.

No. The drugs that you are thinking of are commonly referred to by the name of an element they contain but in reality they are compounds that contain that element, not just the element. Taking the element in it's pure form would not be a good idea!

 

[ZiprHead]

The point is not being able to escape isn't evidence they won't do it.



But not administered. If the doc substituted something else it would be very hard to detect.

What about replacing a vaccine with a suspension of thallium? The records would only show the vaccine.

I know of no pharmacy with thallium. I don't know how you could get it.

It wouldn't be the easiest thing to obtain but it has been used as a murder weapon more than once. Personally, I would try looking in someplace without good record keeping--say Vietnam or Cambodia.

There is one drug that is an element.

That is today's quiz.

No. The drugs that you are thinking of are commonly referred to by the name of an element they contain but in reality they are compounds that contain that element, not just the element. Taking the element in it's pure form would not be a good idea!

Drug carts in hospitals are highly monitored and regulated. It cannot be accessed without passing security measures and and only the drug requested can be removed. They are complex and expensive systems.

 

[poster]

The point is not being able to escape isn't evidence they won't do it.



But not administered. If the doc substituted something else it would be very hard to detect.



It wouldn't be the easiest thing to obtain but it has been used as a murder weapon more than once. Personally, I would try looking in someplace without good record keeping--say Vietnam or Cambodia.

There is one drug that is an element.

That is today's quiz.

No. The drugs that you are thinking of are commonly referred to by the name of an element they contain but in reality they are compounds that contain that element, not just the element. Taking the element in it's pure form would not be a good idea!

Drug carts in hospitals are highly monitored and regulated. It cannot be accessed without passing security measures and and only the drug requested can be removed. They are complex and expensive systems.

Yea, haven't you seen Nurse Jackie?