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Breakdown In Civil Order

Effective rehabilitation involves more than just incarceration or decriminalization of drugs; it also requires removing individuals from environments that perpetuate drug abuse.
My assertion is that with complete and utter decriminalization, such environments would soon evaporate.
As evidenced by... what exactly? What exactly makes you think that if all drugs were completely legal, there'd no longer be any addicts, drug users would never present a danger to themselves or others, and no drug users would ever end up homeless?

FFS, we've had complete and utter decriminalization of alcohol for about a century in the US... and alcoholism is still a serious problem.
 
But they just take less of the more potent things. I don't think the form really matters.

Note, also, that the stuff like fentanyl and crack is because they provide more potency for the money. They would disappear from the market.

As for meth being disastrous--it's pretty much a sloppy version of ADHD meds.

Addiction isn't good but people can have reasonable lives while addicted. I don't think we should obsess with preventing it, especially since the most addictive drug out there is still legal: nicotine.
You sound like you've never had any exposure to addiction, never actually dealt with it in reality. You've got a lot of baseless speculation going on here.

It's not a matter of severe, but whether the mental problems pose a hazard to others. We went from confining a bunch of people we shouldn't have to not confining people who we should be. Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin.
There are some people with severe mental illnesses that should probably be in a facility because they cannot care for themselves. There are quite a few people with schizophrenia and psychosis who have never harmed others... but who also cannot reasonably stay alive on their own. Leaving them on the streets is, in my view, inhumane.

Similar to your comments on drugs, I get the feeling that you've never actually interacted with anyone with a severe mental health issue.
 
Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin a supportive and caring environment in which you receive appropriate treatment while being involuntarily excluded from wider society for the protection of all involved, including you.
FTFY.
I wasn't attempting to address the level of care, just whether they should be free or confined. When we see these cases of nutters killing it's not out of the blue--they have track records of violent action due to their mental illnesses.
 
But they just take less of the more potent things. I don't think the form really matters.

Note, also, that the stuff like fentanyl and crack is because they provide more potency for the money. They would disappear from the market.

As for meth being disastrous--it's pretty much a sloppy version of ADHD meds.

Addiction isn't good but people can have reasonable lives while addicted. I don't think we should obsess with preventing it, especially since the most addictive drug out there is still legal: nicotine.
You sound like you've never had any exposure to addiction, never actually dealt with it in reality. You've got a lot of baseless speculation going on here.
The real harm from addiction is from the need to acquire the object of the addiction.

Nicotine is more addictive than most all recreational drugs--but we don't see the sort of problems with it because they can get their fix at the local gas station and afford it on an ordinary income. You get your fix and go on with life.

Alcohol messes it's addicts up more but even when it goes bad they rarely harm others.

The real harm is from the illegality of the object of addiction.

It's not a matter of severe, but whether the mental problems pose a hazard to others. We went from confining a bunch of people we shouldn't have to not confining people who we should be. Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin.
There are some people with severe mental illnesses that should probably be in a facility because they cannot care for themselves. There are quite a few people with schizophrenia and psychosis who have never harmed others... but who also cannot reasonably stay alive on their own. Leaving them on the streets is, in my view, inhumane.

Similar to your comments on drugs, I get the feeling that you've never actually interacted with anyone with a severe mental health issue.
I do agree the streets aren't the place for them--the question was whether they should be forced into a facility. Help should be available regardless--but schizophrenia has big problem with people not liking the side effects of the medicine and preferring to be crazy.
 
But they just take less of the more potent things. I don't think the form really matters.

Note, also, that the stuff like fentanyl and crack is because they provide more potency for the money. They would disappear from the market.

As for meth being disastrous--it's pretty much a sloppy version of ADHD meds.

Addiction isn't good but people can have reasonable lives while addicted. I don't think we should obsess with preventing it, especially since the most addictive drug out there is still legal: nicotine.
You sound like you've never had any exposure to addiction, never actually dealt with it in reality. You've got a lot of baseless speculation going on here.
The real harm from addiction is from the need to acquire the object of the addiction.

Nicotine is more addictive than most all recreational drugs--but we don't see the sort of problems with it because they can get their fix at the local gas station and afford it on an ordinary income. You get your fix and go on with life.

Alcohol messes it's addicts up more but even when it goes bad they rarely harm others.

The real harm is from the illegality of the object of addiction.

It's not a matter of severe, but whether the mental problems pose a hazard to others. We went from confining a bunch of people we shouldn't have to not confining people who we should be. Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin.
There are some people with severe mental illnesses that should probably be in a facility because they cannot care for themselves. There are quite a few people with schizophrenia and psychosis who have never harmed others... but who also cannot reasonably stay alive on their own. Leaving them on the streets is, in my view, inhumane.

Similar to your comments on drugs, I get the feeling that you've never actually interacted with anyone with a severe mental health issue.
I do agree the streets aren't the place for them--the question was whether they should be forced into a facility. Help should be available regardless--but schizophrenia has big problem with people not liking the side effects of the medicine and preferring to be crazy.
Yeah, again, I'm going to say you have never actually been exposed to people addicted to drugs other than nicotine or alcohol. The harm isn't only from a need to acquire the drug.

Ecstasy damages your body's ability to produce or receive dopamine (don't remember which). If it's a very rare usage, the impact is minimal. But frequent or repeated usage, it causes permanent damage. A drug used to "feel good" directly causes long-term depression. Heroine addicts end up malnourished and often on the brink of starvation - not because they can't get the drug, but because it suppresses appetite to a disastrous extent. Meth destroys your teeth, creates skin lesions and weeping sores.

I'd be far more likely to buy in to the pie-in-the-sky, well-intentioned ideas of people full of wishful thinking if they actually knew what the fuck they were talking about.

I've dealt with (and lived with and cared for) people with serious addictions. Your fantasy that the only real harm is because they can't get the drug is absolutely false. It's a fiction, even if you don't realize it. I've dealt with moderate mental illness, and and it's obvious that you have no understanding of it, or of it's impacts on both the individual and those around them. And I've only had to deal directly with moderate cases of predominantly behavioral illnesses. I'm good friends with people who have both schizophrenia and psychosis in their families.
 
Ecstasy damages your body's ability to produce or receive dopamine (don't remember which). If it's a very rare usage, the impact is minimal. But frequent or repeated usage, it causes permanent damage. A drug used to "feel good" directly causes long-term depression. Heroine addicts end up malnourished and often on the brink of starvation - not because they can't get the drug, but because it suppresses appetite to a disastrous extent. Meth destroys your teeth, creates skin lesions and weeping sores.
Ecstasy isn't addictive, though. Thus what you are referring to is not a harm of addiction.

And I used to have a coworker on some pretty heavy painkillers from war wounds. Not malnourished.
 
Ecstasy damages your body's ability to produce or receive dopamine (don't remember which). If it's a very rare usage, the impact is minimal. But frequent or repeated usage, it causes permanent damage. A drug used to "feel good" directly causes long-term depression. Heroine addicts end up malnourished and often on the brink of starvation - not because they can't get the drug, but because it suppresses appetite to a disastrous extent. Meth destroys your teeth, creates skin lesions and weeping sores.
Ecstasy isn't addictive, though. Thus what you are referring to is not a harm of addiction.
That wasn't what I was countering. You claimed that the only harm from drugs is from not being able to get them. That's not the only harm, far from it.
And I used to have a coworker on some pretty heavy painkillers from war wounds. Not malnourished.
Well goody for you, I guess?

Hey, I had a friend going through chemo who didn't vomit and lose her appetite, so it totally makes sense for me to insinuate that chemo doesn't cause nausea and loss of appetite, right?
 
I bet that some of you here think that this guy who drew his gun should be arrested and prosecuted

 
I bet that some of you here think that this guy who drew his gun should be arrested and prosecuted


I find his actions after drawing to be a bit marginal (the robbers were clearly fleeing at that point) but not to the point of charges.
 
I see this more as "click bait". Just to keep the fear that the end of civilization is about to come.
The national retail assc. miss led us about shrinkage a few years ago.
A new study shows that theft loss is less than 2% at the big box stores.
And Walmart is removing more self checkouts, because that is where the biggest loss is.
 
I arrived in Seattle today, and I can confirm that conditions here are entirely unliveable. Had to shiv three guys with improvised punctuation just to get from the terminal to my rental vehicle, and the scenes of depravity and extravagance in the downtown area defy easy explanation. "Homeless" people fill every low rent apartment building, and armed criminals patrol the streets in special uniforms marking them as dangerous men. A pall of sickly grey fentanyl dust hangs low over the Sound, just waiting from an errant spark from a careless "marijuana bong pipe" to set the entire city alight. One alley is entirely coated in performance artists, stuck helplessly to the walls with chewing gum. There were also statues of several celebrities of color in key civic plazas, where one would normally expect a Confederate general or brave Western pioneer to be found. One man attempted to recruit me into a "drum circle", no doubt one of the many illlicit cults that haunt the urban regions of today. Another clearly intended to sell me an electric vehicle, but was prevented from doing so by the unexpected intervention of a human statue, given abrupt animacy by a tossed quarter. I do not know what tomorrow will bring. The Southcenter Mall awaits me in the dark, malicious capitalism taken corporeal form. I hear that an Asian seafood market and a satellite library stand adjacent to one another in a nearly forgotten corner. Live fish and dead authors, coiled together in the inky depths, planning infamy.
 
Update:

Investigated a local coffeeshop, expecting a just morning brew and a wifi link. You know, American stuff. But it turned out that the coffeehouse was actually a cafetería in disguise, with a smooth blend of American and Mexican crepes and snack foods lining the menu alongside the espresso. It seems so harmless, but American culture is dying, brothers, and we submit voluntarily every time we order a Caffe con horchata, or that harmless looking crepe with a hidden Gansito bar inside. It is the death of a thousand cuts, mis hermitos. Estos Estados Unidos no resistirán esta creciente ola de hispanización por mucho tiempo. Even in the Pacific Northwest, where it used to be impossible to find a taco without "queso cheese". We are looking at the last days of American pie. At least American pie sin crema mexicana tambien. Oh, god, they've got me too. I should never have eaten that last bageta. ¡Estoy jodido! ¡Enviar ayuda!
 
I arrived in Seattle today, and I can confirm that conditions here are entirely unliveable. Had to shiv three guys with improvised punctuation just to get from the terminal to my rental vehicle, and the scenes of depravity and extravagance in the downtown area defy easy explanation. "Homeless" people fill every low rent apartment building, and armed criminals patrol the streets in special uniforms marking them as dangerous men. A pall of sickly grey fentanyl dust hangs low over the Sound, just waiting from an errant spark from a careless "marijuana bong pipe" to set the entire city alight. One alley is entirely coated in performance artists, stuck helplessly to the walls with chewing gum. There were also statues of several celebrities of color in key civic plazas, where one would normally expect a Confederate general or brave Western pioneer to be found. One man attempted to recruit me into a "drum circle", no doubt one of the many illlicit cults that haunt the urban regions of today. Another clearly intended to sell me an electric vehicle, but was prevented from doing so by the unexpected intervention of a human statue, given abrupt animacy by a tossed quarter. I do not know what tomorrow will bring. The Southcenter Mall awaits me in the dark, malicious capitalism taken corporeal form. I hear that an Asian seafood market and a satellite library stand adjacent to one another in a nearly forgotten corner. Live fish and dead authors, coiled together in the inky depths, planning infamy.
Is this the Southcenter Mall you are referring to, or is there more than one? (from 2022):

Entrance to Westfield Southcenter mall in Tukwila smashed in Thanksgiving night

Shoppers in Tukwila this morning said they stay on guard when hitting the stores.

"Whenever I come to the mall I'm supposed to be with a group of friends," shopper Julia Barton said. "I always just try to make sure I have an exit point, always make sure I know where the exit doors are and how I'd get out."

Thursday night’s incident comes after a string of violent events at the mall over the last few years, including a fatal shooting last week.

Shoppers KOMO News spoke with Thursday said they're happy about more sets of eyes for safety after hearing about multiple shootings in and around the mall.

“I’m glad to hear of extra security because a lot of that happens this time of year and throughout the year,” shopper Anwar Hassan said. “You kind of just mind your own business. Get in and get out.”

There was a double shooting inside the mall in May 2021 that prompted an evacuation, and a teen was killed in a shooting the day before Thanksgiving last year in the parking lot outside JCPenney.

This summer, a person was injured at the Cheesecake Factory at the mall after a dispute escalated to gunfire.
 
I arrived in Seattle today, and I can confirm that conditions here are entirely unliveable. Had to shiv three guys with improvised punctuation just to get from the terminal to my rental vehicle, and the scenes of depravity and extravagance in the downtown area defy easy explanation. "Homeless" people fill every low rent apartment building, and armed criminals patrol the streets in special uniforms marking them as dangerous men. A pall of sickly grey fentanyl dust hangs low over the Sound, just waiting from an errant spark from a careless "marijuana bong pipe" to set the entire city alight. One alley is entirely coated in performance artists, stuck helplessly to the walls with chewing gum. There were also statues of several celebrities of color in key civic plazas, where one would normally expect a Confederate general or brave Western pioneer to be found. One man attempted to recruit me into a "drum circle", no doubt one of the many illlicit cults that haunt the urban regions of today. Another clearly intended to sell me an electric vehicle, but was prevented from doing so by the unexpected intervention of a human statue, given abrupt animacy by a tossed quarter. I do not know what tomorrow will bring. The Southcenter Mall awaits me in the dark, malicious capitalism taken corporeal form. I hear that an Asian seafood market and a satellite library stand adjacent to one another in a nearly forgotten corner. Live fish and dead authors, coiled together in the inky depths, planning infamy.
Is this the Southcenter Mall you are referring to, or is there more than one? (from 2022):

Entrance to Westfield Southcenter mall in Tukwila smashed in Thanksgiving night

Shoppers in Tukwila this morning said they stay on guard when hitting the stores.

"Whenever I come to the mall I'm supposed to be with a group of friends," shopper Julia Barton said. "I always just try to make sure I have an exit point, always make sure I know where the exit doors are and how I'd get out."

Thursday night’s incident comes after a string of violent events at the mall over the last few years, including a fatal shooting last week.

Shoppers KOMO News spoke with Thursday said they're happy about more sets of eyes for safety after hearing about multiple shootings in and around the mall.

“I’m glad to hear of extra security because a lot of that happens this time of year and throughout the year,” shopper Anwar Hassan said. “You kind of just mind your own business. Get in and get out.”

There was a double shooting inside the mall in May 2021 that prompted an evacuation, and a teen was killed in a shooting the day before Thanksgiving last year in the parking lot outside JCPenney.

This summer, a person was injured at the Cheesecake Factory at the mall after a dispute escalated to gunfire.
The very same. I got shot as well, but I'm walking it off.

I do support your call to ban firearms at the mall, however.
 
Burkhart had an extensive rap sheet and was on parole. He should have been in jail.

The distraught parents of a four-year-old boy shot dead in their car have demanded to know why the gunman was free to kill after two recent arrests. Convicted felon Byron Burkhart appeared in a Los Angeles court on Tuesday charged with the murder of Gor Adamyan who died in a hail of bullets during a road rage attack on Friday. His parents say they saw Gentile (Burkhat's girlfriend) hand Burkhart the gun before he shot at least eight times at their car, fatally injuring Gor in the back seat. But Gentile has been released without charge and the LA District Attorney is facing questions amid claims that Burkhart had been released from jail just day's earlier under the county's zero-bail policy. 'This particular suspect was in custody a week ago for a gun-related felony and they had to let him go because of the new bail laws,' Lancaster Mayor Rex Parris told KTLA 5.
Lancaster Mayor R. Rex Parris said preventing crimes like this starts with getting tougher on lesser crimes first.

Daily Mail

Gascón has blood on his hands with these no bail policies.
 
Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin a supportive and caring environment in which you receive appropriate treatment while being involuntarily excluded from wider society for the protection of all involved, including you.
FTFY.
I didn't like the term looney bin, but I do think that severely mentally ill people who are violent are better off in a good mental facility then they are in one of our horrendous prisons. Actually, nobody should have to suffer in our cruel and inhumane prisons. America and probably a lot of other countries need prison reform. And, right now, we don't have many if any decent publicly supported mental hospitals. The one that was still open a few years ago here in Georgia was horrible, based on an investigative report I read about it.

Before most of the long term care mental hospitals were closed down, I considered working in one in NC. It was in a very old building, but the care was excellent, based on my observations, but we decided to move so I changed my plans again. The hospital where I received my psych training while in Texas was excellent. Of course that was back in the day when Dems ran the state, so they were more concerned about poor people and those who suffered from severe mental disorders. I prefer to think of these illnesses as brain disorders as that is what they are, including psychopathy, the worst of them all. That hospitals had a unit for the "criminally insane". I'm not fond of that term, but admired the nurses who worked on that unit. They all wore some type of emergency alarms to use in case they were attacked by a resident. I doubt many people would work in such an environment these days.

Many of the residents were only there for a short time, until they could be stabilized. It was during the Reagan administration that money was cut back for mental health. NC had a plan to use visiting nurses to check on the status of these folks, but I don't think that worked out very well. People like my father who had severe PTSD and bipolar disorder didn't need to be hospitalized, but some of my former patients who lived in a personal care home would never survive on their own without a lot of help. They would have been living on the street, confused and without adequate food etc.

What I've found here in Georgia, when it comes to those with the most severe types of mental illness is that if they don't have supportive families, they end up homeless. If they do have supportive families, who can't take them in, but who are willing to take the time to find them a place to live, many of them end up in personal care homes, which are the same as assisted living facilities, but more regulated, as they take Medicaid, our insurance for the most poor.

In addition to people who suffered from various forms of dementia, the residents where I worked included several with schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder with schizo-affective disorder, depression and anxiety disorders. At least they were living in a clean, well kept place with fairly decent food and good care. There were a few workers who had to be let go due to their inability to care for these folks, but I would never had worked there for so many years if the care hadn't been decent. Perhaps some small facilities for those who need the most help would be a way to provide care for those who suffer from severe brain disorders and have no family who will or can care for them. Of course, as long as the far right has so much power, that will be no more than a fantasy.

For anyone interested in having a better understanding of the plight of the mentally ill, I sugges the book "Nobody Cares About Crazy People", I'll have to look up the author but it was written by a man who lost his son to severe mental illness. He did a lot of research on the history of how mentally ill people have been treated throughout history. It's not pretty.

Why do so many people hate the homeless? A lot of them suffer from mental illness, addiction, and/or extreme poverty. Some of them are older adults who can't afford to live on their tiny SS entitlements. Some of them even have jobs but can't afford rent. I read about some in a long article a few years ago who were living in a tent in NYCity. The female had a job and she described how she had to use public restrooms to clean herself up and get to work etc. It was heartbreaking, but I guess some people lack empathy for those who suffer from these problems. That's pretty obvious.
 
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I arrived in Seattle today, and I can confirm that conditions here are entirely unliveable. Had to shiv three guys with improvised punctuation just to get from the terminal to my rental vehicle, and the scenes of depravity and extravagance in the downtown area defy easy explanation. "Homeless" people fill every low rent apartment building, and armed criminals patrol the streets in special uniforms marking them as dangerous men. A pall of sickly grey fentanyl dust hangs low over the Sound, just waiting from an errant spark from a careless "marijuana bong pipe" to set the entire city alight. One alley is entirely coated in performance artists, stuck helplessly to the walls with chewing gum. There were also statues of several celebrities of color in key civic plazas, where one would normally expect a Confederate general or brave Western pioneer to be found. One man attempted to recruit me into a "drum circle", no doubt one of the many illlicit cults that haunt the urban regions of today. Another clearly intended to sell me an electric vehicle, but was prevented from doing so by the unexpected intervention of a human statue, given abrupt animacy by a tossed quarter. I do not know what tomorrow will bring. The Southcenter Mall awaits me in the dark, malicious capitalism taken corporeal form. I hear that an Asian seafood market and a satellite library stand adjacent to one another in a nearly forgotten corner. Live fish and dead authors, coiled together in the inky depths, planning infamy.
Is this the Southcenter Mall you are referring to, or is there more than one? (from 2022):

Entrance to Westfield Southcenter mall in Tukwila smashed in Thanksgiving night

Shoppers in Tukwila this morning said they stay on guard when hitting the stores.

"Whenever I come to the mall I'm supposed to be with a group of friends," shopper Julia Barton said. "I always just try to make sure I have an exit point, always make sure I know where the exit doors are and how I'd get out."

Thursday night’s incident comes after a string of violent events at the mall over the last few years, including a fatal shooting last week.

Shoppers KOMO News spoke with Thursday said they're happy about more sets of eyes for safety after hearing about multiple shootings in and around the mall.

“I’m glad to hear of extra security because a lot of that happens this time of year and throughout the year,” shopper Anwar Hassan said. “You kind of just mind your own business. Get in and get out.”

There was a double shooting inside the mall in May 2021 that prompted an evacuation, and a teen was killed in a shooting the day before Thanksgiving last year in the parking lot outside JCPenney.

This summer, a person was injured at the Cheesecake Factory at the mall after a dispute escalated to gunfire.
The very same. I got shot as well, but I'm walking it off.

I do support your call to ban firearms at the mall, however.
Glad you're OK. Don't forget to change the bandage every few days. Those Republicans with their guns at the mall can be such a headache at times!
 
I arrived in Seattle today, and I can confirm that conditions here are entirely unliveable. Had to shiv three guys with improvised punctuation just to get from the terminal to my rental vehicle, and the scenes of depravity and extravagance in the downtown area defy easy explanation. "Homeless" people fill every low rent apartment building, and armed criminals patrol the streets in special uniforms marking them as dangerous men. A pall of sickly grey fentanyl dust hangs low over the Sound, just waiting from an errant spark from a careless "marijuana bong pipe" to set the entire city alight. One alley is entirely coated in performance artists, stuck helplessly to the walls with chewing gum. There were also statues of several celebrities of color in key civic plazas, where one would normally expect a Confederate general or brave Western pioneer to be found. One man attempted to recruit me into a "drum circle", no doubt one of the many illlicit cults that haunt the urban regions of today. Another clearly intended to sell me an electric vehicle, but was prevented from doing so by the unexpected intervention of a human statue, given abrupt animacy by a tossed quarter. I do not know what tomorrow will bring. The Southcenter Mall awaits me in the dark, malicious capitalism taken corporeal form. I hear that an Asian seafood market and a satellite library stand adjacent to one another in a nearly forgotten corner. Live fish and dead authors, coiled together in the inky depths, planning infamy.
Is this the Southcenter Mall you are referring to, or is there more than one? (from 2022):

Entrance to Westfield Southcenter mall in Tukwila smashed in Thanksgiving night

Shoppers in Tukwila this morning said they stay on guard when hitting the stores.

"Whenever I come to the mall I'm supposed to be with a group of friends," shopper Julia Barton said. "I always just try to make sure I have an exit point, always make sure I know where the exit doors are and how I'd get out."

Thursday night’s incident comes after a string of violent events at the mall over the last few years, including a fatal shooting last week.

Shoppers KOMO News spoke with Thursday said they're happy about more sets of eyes for safety after hearing about multiple shootings in and around the mall.

“I’m glad to hear of extra security because a lot of that happens this time of year and throughout the year,” shopper Anwar Hassan said. “You kind of just mind your own business. Get in and get out.”

There was a double shooting inside the mall in May 2021 that prompted an evacuation, and a teen was killed in a shooting the day before Thanksgiving last year in the parking lot outside JCPenney.

This summer, a person was injured at the Cheesecake Factory at the mall after a dispute escalated to gunfire.
The very same. I got shot as well, but I'm walking it off.

I do support your call to ban firearms at the mall, however.
Glad you're OK. Don't forget to change the bandage every few days. Those Republicans with their guns at the mall can be such a headache at times!
And cigarettes, Jesus. This state...
 
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