Breakdown In Civil Order

[Elixir]

Effective rehabilitation involves more than just incarceration or decriminalization of drugs; it also requires removing individuals from environments that perpetuate drug abuse.

My assertion is that with complete and utter decriminalization, such environments would soon evaporate.

 

[Gospel]

Effective rehabilitation involves more than just incarceration or decriminalization of drugs; it also requires removing individuals from environments that perpetuate drug abuse.

My assertion is that with complete and utter decriminalization, such environments would soon evaporate.

I see your perspective, but like a vacation, a change of environment can also bolster positive feelings and alleviate symptoms of depression.

 

[Gospel]

Once, during my homeless days in New York, my best friend's father had a construction project in upstate New York, renovating a deck and patio. I remember being reluctant at first to take up his offer to go and help him on the project because, frankly, I thought he was racist and worried he might leave me there. Anyhow, Justin decided to ride along (he didn't like his step-dad either, but for my sake, he went along because he knew I needed to get away from the streets for a while). You see, I was having problems with local thugs and was stressed about it all the time.

Anyhow, we went, and the place was absolutely breathtaking. I never knew New York had mountains until that point. I forgot the name of the park, but the deck was on a massive lake. We stayed in what I think was a clubhouse, and I distinctly remember my friend's father telling me it wasn't a permanent structure. I was like, "So, ahh, they just what, roll it away?" Joking, and he casually said, "Yeah."

Anyhow, we finished the deck (just the surface, as the pillars, or whatever they are called, were already in the lake). All I did was operate the forklift, taking the wood off the flatbed down the road and driving it all up what seemed like a half-mile path. I had the absolute time of my life and didn't think about those idiotic thugs back home at all.

So when the job was finished, and we came back, I never felt so disappointed to see Bayshore, New York, in my life. I just felt all of my troubles come back instantly, and all that joy was simply gone.

 

[bilby]

Once, during my homeless days in New York, my best friend's father had a construction project in upstate New York, renovating a deck and patio. I remember being reluctant at first to take up his offer to go and help him on the project because, frankly, I thought he was racist and worried he might leave me there. Anyhow, Justin decided to ride along (he didn't like his step-dad either, but for my sake, he went along because he knew I needed to get away from the streets for a while). You see, I was having problems with local thugs and was stressed about it all the time.

Anyhow, we went, and the place was absolutely breathtaking. I never knew New York had mountains until that point. I forgot the name of the park, but the deck was on a massive lake. We stayed in what I think was a clubhouse, and I distinctly remember my friend's father telling me it wasn't a permanent structure. I was like, "So, ahh, they just what, roll it away?" Joking, and he casually said, "Yeah."

Anyhow, we finished the deck (just the surface, as the pillars, or whatever they are called, were already in the lake). All I did was operate the forklift, taking the wood off the flatbed down the road and driving it all up what seemed like a half-mile path. I had the absolute time of my life and didn't think about those idiotic thugs back home at all.

So when the job was finished, and we came back, I never felt so disappointed to see Bayshore, New York, in my life. I just felt all of my troubles come back instantly, and all that joy was simply gone.

So what made you go back at all?

Seriously; It's the things that made you go back that are likely the fundamental causes of the problems we are discussing for many homeless people. So what are those things*, and how can they be mitigated or removed?








* I have a number of ideas, from my own experiences, but would like to hear yours

 

[Gospel]

Once, during my homeless days in New York, my best friend's father had a construction project in upstate New York, renovating a deck and patio. I remember being reluctant at first to take up his offer to go and help him on the project because, frankly, I thought he was racist and worried he might leave me there. Anyhow, Justin decided to ride along (he didn't like his step-dad either, but for my sake, he went along because he knew I needed to get away from the streets for a while). You see, I was having problems with local thugs and was stressed about it all the time.

Anyhow, we went, and the place was absolutely breathtaking. I never knew New York had mountains until that point. I forgot the name of the park, but the deck was on a massive lake. We stayed in what I think was a clubhouse, and I distinctly remember my friend's father telling me it wasn't a permanent structure. I was like, "So, ahh, they just what, roll it away?" Joking, and he casually said, "Yeah."

Anyhow, we finished the deck (just the surface, as the pillars, or whatever they are called, were already in the lake). All I did was operate the forklift, taking the wood off the flatbed down the road and driving it all up what seemed like a half-mile path. I had the absolute time of my life and didn't think about those idiotic thugs back home at all.

So when the job was finished, and we came back, I never felt so disappointed to see Bayshore, New York, in my life. I just felt all of my troubles come back instantly, and all that joy was simply gone.

So what made you go back at all?

Seriously; It's the things that made you go back that are likely the fundamental causes of the problems we are discussing for many homeless people. So what are those things*, and how can they be mitigated or removed?








* I have a number of ideas, from my own experiences, but would like to hear yours

I had no choice. The place we performed the work wasn't familiar. Or in better terms urban. It was just a job for my friends dad not a place he owned nor was friends with the owner. I had to go back with my friend. Really had no place to go up there. At least in my mind at that time.

 

[bilby]

Once, during my homeless days in New York, my best friend's father had a construction project in upstate New York, renovating a deck and patio. I remember being reluctant at first to take up his offer to go and help him on the project because, frankly, I thought he was racist and worried he might leave me there. Anyhow, Justin decided to ride along (he didn't like his step-dad either, but for my sake, he went along because he knew I needed to get away from the streets for a while). You see, I was having problems with local thugs and was stressed about it all the time.

Anyhow, we went, and the place was absolutely breathtaking. I never knew New York had mountains until that point. I forgot the name of the park, but the deck was on a massive lake. We stayed in what I think was a clubhouse, and I distinctly remember my friend's father telling me it wasn't a permanent structure. I was like, "So, ahh, they just what, roll it away?" Joking, and he casually said, "Yeah."

Anyhow, we finished the deck (just the surface, as the pillars, or whatever they are called, were already in the lake). All I did was operate the forklift, taking the wood off the flatbed down the road and driving it all up what seemed like a half-mile path. I had the absolute time of my life and didn't think about those idiotic thugs back home at all.

So when the job was finished, and we came back, I never felt so disappointed to see Bayshore, New York, in my life. I just felt all of my troubles come back instantly, and all that joy was simply gone.

So what made you go back at all?

Seriously; It's the things that made you go back that are likely the fundamental causes of the problems we are discussing for many homeless people. So what are those things*, and how can they be mitigated or removed?








* I have a number of ideas, from my own experiences, but would like to hear yours

I had no choice.

Sure; But why not? In theory, you were at liberty to choose.

The place we performed the work wasn't familiar. Or in better terms urban.

Exactly. So what is it about the urban environment that makes it survivable, where the rural environment (which is far more pleasant) is not?

It was just a job for my friends dad not a place he owned nor was friends with the owner. I had to go back with my friend. Really had no place to go up there. At least in my mind at that time.

You had no place to go in the city either, if you were homeless...

...the difference being that a city has support systems. Infrastructure. Work (whether lawful, questionable, or downright criminal).

These are the things people need. Because ultimately, you have to eat; So you have to have some way to obtain food, whether that's mooching off a friend (perhaps in the expectation that you will reciprocate when his luck is down, while yours is up); Begging; Stealing; trading favours (often with highly dodgy characters who you really don't want to be indebted to); or Paid employment.

The problem for society is that much of this activity is seen as undesirable. Crime is clearly undesirable, and even begging is frowned upon. Paid employment isn't universally achievable - full employment is not coming back, as far as I can see, at least not via the private sector.

The solution is to give people enough money to eat (and ideally to be clothed and housed) with no strings attached. A universal basic income. Paid for by a highly progressive taxation system.

Of course, this idea is hugely unpopular. But its unpopularity isn't rational. Wealthy people are happy to spend FAR more on security (whether by taxpayer funded police, or private spending on security guards, alarms, walls, gates, etc.,) than it would cost them in taxes to make most of the expensive and unsightly problems go away.

People (most people) don't want to be dependant on the black economy that makes a city into a survivable place for the poor (in a way that rural areas are not). Their dependance upon the black economy is entirely due to their being excluded from the legitimate economy. And a UBI would cut that exclusion off at the knees.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Once, during my homeless days in New York, my best friend's father had a construction project in upstate New York, renovating a deck and patio. I remember being reluctant at first to take up his offer to go and help him on the project because, frankly, I thought he was racist and worried he might leave me there. Anyhow, Justin decided to ride along (he didn't like his step-dad either, but for my sake, he went along because he knew I needed to get away from the streets for a while). You see, I was having problems with local thugs and was stressed about it all the time.

Anyhow, we went, and the place was absolutely breathtaking. I never knew New York had mountains until that point. I forgot the name of the park, but the deck was on a massive lake. We stayed in what I think was a clubhouse, and I distinctly remember my friend's father telling me it wasn't a permanent structure. I was like, "So, ahh, they just what, roll it away?" Joking, and he casually said, "Yeah."

Anyhow, we finished the deck (just the surface, as the pillars, or whatever they are called, were already in the lake). All I did was operate the forklift, taking the wood off the flatbed down the road and driving it all up what seemed like a half-mile path. I had the absolute time of my life and didn't think about those idiotic thugs back home at all.

So when the job was finished, and we came back, I never felt so disappointed to see Bayshore, New York, in my life. I just felt all of my troubles come back instantly, and all that joy was simply gone.

So what made you go back at all?

Seriously; It's the things that made you go back that are likely the fundamental causes of the problems we are discussing for many homeless people. So what are those things*, and how can they be mitigated or removed?








* I have a number of ideas, from my own experiences, but would like to hear yours

I had no choice.

My guess is one must pick and choose they're going to be homeless and Black. Where you're less likely to get harassed by local law enforcement.

 

[Gospel]

Once, during my homeless days in New York, my best friend's father had a construction project in upstate New York, renovating a deck and patio. I remember being reluctant at first to take up his offer to go and help him on the project because, frankly, I thought he was racist and worried he might leave me there. Anyhow, Justin decided to ride along (he didn't like his step-dad either, but for my sake, he went along because he knew I needed to get away from the streets for a while). You see, I was having problems with local thugs and was stressed about it all the time.

Anyhow, we went, and the place was absolutely breathtaking. I never knew New York had mountains until that point. I forgot the name of the park, but the deck was on a massive lake. We stayed in what I think was a clubhouse, and I distinctly remember my friend's father telling me it wasn't a permanent structure. I was like, "So, ahh, they just what, roll it away?" Joking, and he casually said, "Yeah."

Anyhow, we finished the deck (just the surface, as the pillars, or whatever they are called, were already in the lake). All I did was operate the forklift, taking the wood off the flatbed down the road and driving it all up what seemed like a half-mile path. I had the absolute time of my life and didn't think about those idiotic thugs back home at all.

So when the job was finished, and we came back, I never felt so disappointed to see Bayshore, New York, in my life. I just felt all of my troubles come back instantly, and all that joy was simply gone.

So what made you go back at all?

Seriously; It's the things that made you go back that are likely the fundamental causes of the problems we are discussing for many homeless people. So what are those things*, and how can they be mitigated or removed?








* I have a number of ideas, from my own experiences, but would like to hear yours

I had no choice.

Sure; But why not? In theory, you were at liberty to choose.

The place we performed the work wasn't familiar. Or in better terms urban.

Exactly. So what is it about the urban environment that makes it survivable, where the rural environment (which is far more pleasant) is not?

It was just a job for my friends dad not a place he owned nor was friends with the owner. I had to go back with my friend. Really had no place to go up there. At least in my mind at that time.

You had no place to go in the city either, if you were homeless...

...the difference being that a city has support systems. Infrastructure. Work (whether lawful, questionable, or downright criminal).

These are the things people need. Because ultimately, you have to eat; So you have to have some way to obtain food, whether that's mooching off a friend (perhaps in the expectation that you will reciprocate when his luck is down, while yours is up); Begging; Stealing; trading favours (often with highly dodgy characters who you really don't want to be indebted to); or Paid employment.

The problem for society is that much of this activity is seen as undesirable. Crime is clearly undesirable, and even begging is frowned upon. Paid employment isn't universally achievable - full employment is not coming back, as far as I can see, at least not via the private sector.

The solution is to give people enough money to eat (and ideally to be clothed and housed) with no strings attached. A universal basic income. Paid for by a highly progressive taxation system.

Of course, this idea is hugely unpopular. But its unpopularity isn't rational. Wealthy people are happy to spend FAR more on security (whether by taxpayer funded police, or private spending on security guards, alarms, walls, gates, etc.,) than it would cost them in taxes to make most of the expensive and unsightly problems go away.

People (most people) don't want to be dependant on the black economy that makes a city into a survivable place for the poor (in a way that rural areas are not). Their dependance upon the black economy is entirely due to their being excluded from the legitimate economy. And a UBI would cut that exclusion off at the knees.

I was unfamiliar with both the people and the area, and moreover, my best friend resided in Bayshore.

Edit: If there were people there to help me get on my feet I would have stayed. I went primarily to avoid the greater risk of harm that staying behind posed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Selective legalization of drugs - not everything should be legal, in my view. And what is legal should be highly regulated for quality, purity, and strength. Base form and minimally processed drugs are generally okay, engineered and highly concentrated ones are generally not. So for example, I would support legalizing opium and laudanum, but not heroin nor any of the medical-grade opioids. I support legalizing marijuana in its flower form, as well as fairly straightforward edible and vapor forms, but I'm not okay with dabs or shatter. Coca leaves and limited volumes of cocaine are probably okay, but crack is not. "Mommy's little helper" amphetamines weren't really a big problem, but meth is disastrous. Peyote and magic mushrooms get a thumbs up from me, but PCP is right out. I'm not an expert on all drugs by any means, I'm pretty happy with a fully functional brain. The general idea is to allow for controlled and regulated use of drugs that are either self-limiting (I've never met a shrooms addict, nor even anyone who wanted to do them more than about once a month) or are minimally addictive so that even the most frequent users are still generally going to be functional in society.

But they just take less of the more potent things. I don't think the form really matters.

Note, also, that the stuff like fentanyl and crack is because they provide more potency for the money. They would disappear from the market.

As for meth being disastrous--it's pretty much a sloppy version of ADHD meds.

Addiction isn't good but people can have reasonable lives while addicted. I don't think we should obsess with preventing it, especially since the most addictive drug out there is still legal: nicotine.

Strict enforcement of public intoxication and driving under the influence laws - that means zero tolerance for anyone shooting up in public. If that's paired with my first suggestion, then it should mostly result in drunk-tank-esque actions by law enforcement. That said, there probably needs to be some aspect of rehab incorporated into our standard expectations of health care coverage.

It's not whether they use it in public, but what state they are in public. As you say, drunk tank.

That brings me to my last suggestion, which is the reintroduction of government-run involuntary commitments for severe mental illness. The elimination of "looney bins" was a bad idea. Not all mental illnesses can be addressed with talk therapy (which is only haphazardly effective in the first place), and some are disruptive enough that other people should be protected from them. Maybe it's not a case of tossing people in and throwing away the key, but the current "solution" of just letting the schizophrenics and psychotics run amok on the streets is just plain stupid.

It's not a matter of severe, but whether the mental problems pose a hazard to others. We went from confining a bunch of people we shouldn't have to not confining people who we should be. Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Newsom's California, "the fifth largest economy in the word"!!

San Francisco is facing its deadliest year ever for drug overdoses, a trend blamed on the surge of powerful synthetic fentanyl in the US’s illicit drug supply. In the first nine months of 2023, the northern California city saw 692 people die of overdoses, more than in the entire year of 2022, according to new data reported by the city’s medical examiner. The city is on track to see more than 800 deaths this year, topping its highest year ever, 2020, when it saw 720. August was the deadliest month on record – with an overdose death every nine hours. “It’s going to be an almost 25% increase over last year – that’s crazy and unfortunate,” said Dr Daniel Ciccarone, a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, who specializes in addiction medicine. “California has now surpassed the national average and it’s becoming the single most important place for overdose intervention in terms of sheer numbers,” said Joseph Friedman, an addiction researcher at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Teh Gruaniad

My god! It’s gotten so terrible in California that they have now surpassed the national average!!

 

[robnisch]

Retail group forced to correct 'inaccurate' report claiming organized retail crime accounts for nearly half of inventory loss

The revised report also deleted any estimate of organized retail crime's overall impact in dollars.

fortune.com

Heard same thing on NPR today.
Looks like a case of "if it bleeds it reads".

 

[bilby]

Once you commit violence because you're a nutter you should be in the loony bin a supportive and caring environment in which you receive appropriate treatment while being involuntarily excluded from wider society for the protection of all involved, including you.

FTFY.

 

[Politesse]

Newsom's California, "the fifth largest economy in the word"!!

San Francisco is facing its deadliest year ever for drug overdoses, a trend blamed on the surge of powerful synthetic fentanyl in the US’s illicit drug supply. In the first nine months of 2023, the northern California city saw 692 people die of overdoses, more than in the entire year of 2022, according to new data reported by the city’s medical examiner. The city is on track to see more than 800 deaths this year, topping its highest year ever, 2020, when it saw 720. August was the deadliest month on record – with an overdose death every nine hours. “It’s going to be an almost 25% increase over last year – that’s crazy and unfortunate,” said Dr Daniel Ciccarone, a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, who specializes in addiction medicine. “California has now surpassed the national average and it’s becoming the single most important place for overdose intervention in terms of sheer numbers,” said Joseph Friedman, an addiction researcher at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Teh Gruaniad

My god! It’s gotten so terrible in California that they have now surpassed the national average!!

Which means that this whole time, up until now, all of the melodramatic hand-wringing in this thread about California being the worst, most desperate shithole in the nation, was about a state where the overdose rate was almost 25% lower than the national average...

Though I do agree with Dr Friedman's point that our much higher population and population density makes us a more critical point of intervention than another state might be. We're also home to key nodes in the medical and penitentiary systems that have created the fentanyl crisis to begin with.

 

[TSwizzle]

Which means that this whole time, up until now, all of the melodramatic hand-wringing in this thread about California being the worst, most desperate shithole in the nation, was about a state where the overdose rate was almost 25% lower than the national average...

Newsom and the democrats have worked wonders in making California WORSE instead of improving things? Is that the point here?

 

[TomC]

Newsom and the democrats have worked wonders in making California WORSE instead of improving things? Is that the point here?

Worse than what?

If you're only talking about per capita rates of overdose that's quite different from quality of life indexes.

Let's compare a range of stats from California and Texas. Do you realize that Texas is putting up road blocks to prevent women from traveling to other states? How might that impact the "personal freedom" index comparison? Or does personal freedom not matter to you unless it's your freedoms?
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Which means that this whole time, up until now, all of the melodramatic hand-wringing in this thread about California being the worst, most desperate shithole in the nation, was about a state where the overdose rate was almost 25% lower than the national average...

Newsom and the democrats have worked wonders in making California WORSE instead of improving things? Is that the point here?

No. I don’t think that’s the point here. Unless only one point can ever be had at a time. Then maybe.

 

[Patooka]

Which means that this whole time, up until now, all of the melodramatic hand-wringing in this thread about California being the worst, most desperate shithole in the nation, was about a state where the overdose rate was almost 25% lower than the national average...

Newsom and the democrats have worked wonders in making California WORSE instead of improving things? Is that the point here?

If things are as bad as you have been claiming for literally years, why the fuck did you still live there? You could move to Florida and be closer to your idol if you want.

 

[Gospel]

Which means that this whole time, up until now, all of the melodramatic hand-wringing in this thread about California being the worst, most desperate shithole in the nation, was about a state where the overdose rate was almost 25% lower than the national average...

Newsom and the democrats have worked wonders in making California WORSE instead of improving things? Is that the point here?

If things are as bad as you have been claiming for literally years, why the fuck did you still live there? You could move to Florida and be closer to your idol if you want.

Our inventory of Newsome detractors in this state is through the roof—there's simply zero market for TSwizzle around here!

 

[Patooka]

Our inventory of Newsome detractors in this state is through the roof—there's simply zero market for TSwizzle around here!

To misquote Sinatra, if Dave Rubin can make it there, anyone can.

 

[Emily Lake]

Effective rehabilitation involves more than just incarceration or decriminalization of drugs; it also requires removing individuals from environments that perpetuate drug abuse. For instance, relocating a homeless drug addict to a rehab facility in a different state, away from familiar triggers, could significantly improve their recovery chances. This approach can be enhanced by offering employment opportunities suited to their abilities, with employers receiving government subsidies to partially cover wages. This strategy aims to create a supportive environment conducive to recovery and reintegration into society.

I'd support that.

Regarding my point to Poli, these are policy decisions that need to be enacted by politicians and legislators. Neither are things that individuals or even private organizations can reasonably do.

Why are you responding to an imaginary point? I'm not a fucking libertarian, government is an entirely necessary part of community life and I have never said otherwise.

Probably because it's not an imaginary point. It's something you've repeatedly said, in various different ways. In fact, it's something I directly addressed... and which you seem to have either missed or ignored:

I have a question. Several of you seem to have taken a position where your response is "what are you doing about it?" along side accusations that "all you do is complain, you're not helping". This seems to happen particularly when a poster criticize politicians and policies.

So... what are people supposed to do about it? It's not like an individual can create and enact laws all by their lonesome - that's the job of politicians. They can't put new policies in place by themselves - that's the job of politicians. What are they supposed to do, walk around with a pocket full of naloxone waiting to stick random druggies? Are they supposed to open up their private homes so that complete strangers can live there rent free and get off the street? Seriously - what are people supposed to do?

In my view, what people are supposed to do is to vote for politicians who will enact effective and reasonable laws and policies, ones that will protect law abiding citizens from the harms caused by criminals and addicts. And when politicians are failing to do that we should make our displeasure with those politicians known.

If you can't think of anything to do, you aren't really trying very hard. Get involved -- there's more than enough work to be done and always too few hands. But I don't just mean "as individuals" when I say we should work to resolve social issues and challenges, politicians also perform an important and necessary role. They should be chosen with care, and communicated with regularly.

So how about you present some ideas that actually make a difference in removing the homeless from being homeless for the long term, and materially reduces the degree of serious addiction and mental illness present in them?

I donate to organizations that help feed, water, and provide medical support for the homeless. I help prepare meals for the homeless and for low-income families with food insecurity. I regularly donate to the local food banks, and I periodically hand out flyers about those food banks as well as shelters within my vicinity.

None of that actually addresses the underlying problems, it only treats the symptoms. Please go ahead and tell me what an average person can ACTUALLY do that addresses mental illness, drug addiction, and chronic homelessness while also maintaining a clean and healthy environment for all of the other people who live here.

You've repeatedly responded to people's complaints with something along the lines of "Well what are you doing about it?" as if that's a meaningful response, or is in any way useful.

It's not useful, it's just a way to insult other posters by proxy. It's a way to insinuate that their complaints are baseless because they themselves aren't fixing the problem, despite the fact that there is LITERALLY nothing that any single individual can do to address the underlying drivers. The solution MUST come from policy, and therefore from politicians. And to that extent, criticism of the politicians enacting and supporting efforts that are clearly ineffective is a reasonable starting point.

Especially when for many of those policies, anyone with a reasonably well regulated executive function would be able to tell that it would be ineffective well before it went into effect. Seriously, anyone with even a small ability to actually extrapolate the potential outcomes would know that decriminalizing all drugs and setting up wet-shelters in Seattle was going to be a bad idea that did not actually help anyone at all. It doesn't help the addicts, it doesn't address homelessness, and it sure as fuck doesn't help any of the tax-paying residents of the city.