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Breakdown In Civil Order

I am basically saying that if you target a group for collective punishment, despite some members being innocent of the offence for which you are punishing them, then you are immoral and unethical to a degree exemplified by the worst societies in human history.
This approach bothers me. You frame the expectation of safe and clean communal use of communal property as being a punishment to those who do not maintain that cleanliness, and who increase risk to the public by the way in which they abuse those communal properties.
You frame the desire to collectively punish a group of people, based on an identity that is neither unlawful nor immoral, as "the expectation of safe and clean communal use of communal property", so frankly I suggest that if "framing" is problematic for you, you might attend to your beam, rather than my mote.

Hassling innocent people, purely because they are members of a villified minority, is utterly despicable.

Excusing that harrasment, by claiming a desire for cleanliness, is straight out of the ethnic cleansing playbook.

Obvious vile bigotry is obvious.
You continue to object but do not propose any other option to make people safe.

Even if it were just a matter of cleanliness it would be legitimate--littering is illegal.

However, it's a matter of safety. People do not feel safe around homeless encampments.
The option to keep people safe is and has always been to place the burden on small communities to house their smaller homeless populations.

The only way to address the problem is to minimize the number of homeless that end up being forced into such camps.

The reality is that homeless people's rights to exist is real, and the minority demands of those who feel "unsafe" over their existence does not actually sit atop any sort of "right".

If you wish to be unhappy over what you perceive as a threat to your safety, be angry at all the small towns and municipalities that sent them along "to the city".

You can blame the foster programs that send a kid along with nothing but a single bus ticket when they turn 18.

You can blame the small town parents who put their kids out the day they graduate high school.

You can blame the cities who turn out such encampments, stealing or destroying people's stuff, making them even more desperate and dirty and sad.

You can respond to this feeling of blame with the demands for spaces and policies that guarantee housing (especially in small towns) for newly graduated teens, or teens who have lost the support of their parents.

You can respond to this feeling of blame with demands for programs that will allow such people to seek employment with virtual addresses on any given street, and access showers where they can get themselves clean regularly.

You can respond to this blame with demands for spaces where the weight of the encampment can be counter balanced by immediate presence of social services, and purpose-built places for homeless encampments to precipitate in a more planned way, so that the issue can be handled "ergonomically" rather than tents just popping up in the hidden parts of various parks.

There are all sorts of ways to respond to this issue, but none of them effectively involve "making them someone else's problem". They all involve recognizing the reality of a problem here, now, that must be handled with kindness.

The fact is, behaviorally, there's very little difference between the average "homeless drunkard" and my mother in law, and every one of those differences is marked with a $. All you have to do is take away the money she didn't earn for herself anyway, and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. At that point, she would just be yet another racist drunk with too much time on her hands. I just spent a weekend forced to share a house with her, as she spent every evening ranting about black people whenever she got her hands on more than a single glass of wine.
 
You seem to favor allowing addicts to do drugs in public openly, with no consideration for the impact such behavior has on everyone else.
Not at all.

I just see you when you make the unwarranted, unreasonable, and downright bigoted conflation of "drug addict" with "homeless person".

If you don't like being thought a bigot, stop doing that.

Drug addiction and homelessness are not the same problem, nor even closely related problems, from a solutions perspective (there is a causal link in both directions, but it's not large enough for the two problems to share any common solutions.
If all you can muster in this discussion is ad hominem character assassination attempts and appeals to emotion, I kindly suggest you see yourself out.

Don't fucking call people bigots because you are so intellectually and emotionally immature that you can't handle an adult conversation.
 
Public places are public.

You are essentially saying that you (and, you rather insultingly presume, we) feel more entitlement to those spaces than anyone who has nowhere else to go; You feel that as it is reasonable not to want homeless people in your private space, it is therefore also reasonable not to want them in your public spaces, either.

The problem being that these are not your spaces to begin with, and your opinion about who else should be allowed there is consequently entirely a you problem. You are being greedy and entitled, by wanting public spaces to be reserved exclusively for you, and for people you approve of.

Well, tough shit - homeless people are members of the public too, and can occupy public spaces if they wish - and they will; Particularly if they have no other options.
Tragedy of the commons.

If homeless people occupy public spaces, they are depriving all other citizens of the use of those public spaces. You seem to think I view them as my public spaces; I don't. I view them as our public spaces - spaces that all of us should be able to safely access for their intended purpose.
I'm curious about how a homeless person could be homeless and not occupy public spaces. The homeless should be expected to occupy public spaces, as it is against the law for them to occupy private spaces, and because we as a society have decided they don't deserve any other alternative if they don't have a place to call home. It is literally their only option.

Sounds like society en masse be at fault her for the clear fail in logic if they don't want the homeless in public spaces?

And a good first step could be recognizing that the homeless are just like Asians... they ain't all alike!
 
People do not feel safe around homeless encampments.
People don't have the right to abuse other people because of the way those other people make them feel.
What fucking "abuse" is involved in moving people to different location that does NOT deprive other people of the right to access communal spaces?
 
The option to keep people safe is and has always been to place the burden on small communities to house their smaller homeless populations.

The only way to address the problem is to minimize the number of homeless that end up being forced into such camps.

The reality is that homeless people's rights to exist is real, and the minority demands of those who feel "unsafe" over their existence does not actually sit atop any sort of "right".
Nobody is trying to make them not exist as people. Many of us would like to make homelessness not exist - not by making homeless people not exist, but by making those people NOT BE HOMELESS!

For fuck's sake, the entire approach here is so incredibly fucking devoid of rational thought that I barely even know where to start.
 
People do not feel safe around homeless encampments.
People don't have the right to abuse other people because of the way those other people make them feel.
What fucking "abuse" is involved in moving people to different location that does NOT deprive other people of the right to access communal spaces?
I dunno. Would it be OK for someone to decide, without consulting you in any way, to move YOU to a different location?

Would you have no objection to this?

I find that dubious at best.

But, of course, it's OK to do that to them, because they are not like us. (Not a bigoted attitude at all, as long as it's only strongly implied rather than stated explicitly. Apparently).
 
For fuck's sake, the entire approach here is so incredibly fucking devoid of rational thought that I barely even know where to start.
Perhaps you could start with the idea that you are talking about actual people, each of whom is an individual, and is entitled to a say in what happens to them.
 
People don't have the right to abuse other people because of the way those other people make them feel.
You abuse Emily because of the way she makes you feel.

I just see you when you make the unwarranted, unreasonable, and downright bigoted conflation of "drug addict" with "homeless person".

If you don't like being thought a bigot, stop doing that.
Seriously, dude, she's not the one talking like a bigot here. If you don't like being thought a bigot by reasonable people, stop doing you.
 
You abuse Emily
No, I don't.
Of course you do. Your posts are right there where we can all read them.

I am basically saying that if you target a group for collective punishment, despite some members being innocent of the offence for which you are punishing them, then you are immoral and unethical to a degree exemplified by the worst societies in human history.
This approach bothers me. You frame the expectation of safe and clean communal use of communal property as being a punishment to those who do not maintain that cleanliness, and who increase risk to the public by the way in which they abuse those communal properties.
You frame the desire to collectively punish a group of people, based on an identity that is neither unlawful nor immoral, as "the expectation of safe and clean communal use of communal property",
No, she didn't. That's you strawmanning her.

so frankly I suggest that if "framing" is problematic for you, you might attend to your beam, rather than my mote.

Hassling innocent people, purely because they are members of a villified minority, is utterly despicable.

Excusing that harrasment, by claiming a desire for cleanliness, is straight out of the ethnic cleansing playbook.
She did not do those things. That's you strawmanning her.

Obvious vile bigotry is obvious.
Yes, your obvious vile bigotry is obvious. You are strawmanning her because she is blaspheming against your religion.

You seem to favor allowing addicts to do drugs in public openly, with no consideration for the impact such behavior has on everyone else.
Not at all.

I just see you when you make the unwarranted, unreasonable, and downright bigoted conflation of "drug addict" with "homeless person".
She didn't. That's you strawmanning her.

What ... "abuse" is involved in moving people to different location that does NOT deprive other people of the right to access communal spaces?
I dunno. Would it be OK for someone to decide, without consulting you in any way, to move YOU to a different location?

Would you have no objection to this?

I find that dubious at best.

But, of course, it's OK to do that to them, because they are not like us. (Not a bigoted attitude at all, as long as it's only strongly implied rather than stated explicitly. Apparently).
You asked her a perfectly legitimate question. And then, instead of waiting for her to answer, you made up an answer for her, and then you made up a motivation for your own answer that you pretended was her answer. That's you strawmanning her.

... devoid of rational thought that I barely even know where to start.
Perhaps you could start with the idea that you are talking about actual people, each of whom is an individual, and is entitled to a say in what happens to them.
She at no point implied they aren't actual individual people. That's you strawmanning her.

Strawmanning is abuse.
 
What ..."abuse" is involved in moving people to different location that does NOT deprive other people of the right to access communal spaces?
I dunno. Would it be OK for someone to decide, without consulting you in any way, to move YOU to a different location?

If some guy parked himself in the steps down from your bus and blocked the other riders from getting off and blocked customers from getting on, so you asked him to move to a different location, but he declined and just stood right where he was, would you summon a constable? Would it be okay for the constable to decide, without consulting the fellow in any way, to move him to a different location?

Would you have no objection to this?

I find that dubious at best.
Suppose you were loitering on a sidewalk minding your own business, and a hundred other people were standing on the same sidewalk with you, visually indistinguishable from you except half of them were holding "pro-life" signs, and the hundred and one of you were collectively blocking all paths in and out of the local abortion clinic. Suppose a patient and a doctor needed to leave and you collectively made that infeasible. Suppose another patient tried to enter and a dozen of the protestors surrounded her and tried to shove fetal ultrasounds into her face while the rest of you just stood there collectively making escape appear impossible to her. Would it be okay for the local constabulary to decide, without first interviewing each and every one of the hundred and one of you to try to divine which ones of you were deliberately blocking access and which ones of you were just harmlessly loitering, to move the whole lot of you to a different location more suitable for a public protest?

I do not find it dubious to suppose you would have an objection to this, but your objection would not be reasonable. The constabulary's decision not to allow you to remain while the hundred protestors were being shunted away to a different location, and not to make the doctor and patients wait the fourteen hours it would have taken them to figure out who was a protestor, and not to leave actual criminals free to prey on their victims unmolested by constables because the constables were all fully occupied in interviewing and running background checks on a hundred and one nondispersing crowd members, would not be evidence of a "bigoted attitude" on the constables' part.

But, of course, it's OK to do that to them, because they are not like us. (Not a bigoted attitude at all, as long as it's only strongly implied rather than stated explicitly. Apparently).
 
Strawmanning is abuse.
Being mistaken is different than strawmanning.
True. If somebody new to the forum were to post messages like those we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt and presume the misrepresentations might be due to mere idiocy. But bilby has 35,000 posts under his belt. We know he's not an idiot.
 
People do not feel safe around homeless encampments.
People don't have the right to abuse other people because of the way those other people make them feel.
What fucking "abuse" is involved in moving people to different location that does NOT deprive other people of the right to access communal spaces?
I dunno. Would it be OK for someone to decide, without consulting you in any way, to move YOU to a different location?
If I'm blocking the use of communal areas then yes, I would be okay with it. Furthermore, I EXPECT that law enforcement would be asked to move me so that I'm not depriving everyone else of accessing that communal area!
Would you have no objection to this?

I find that dubious at best.

But, of course, it's OK to do that to them, because they are not like us. (Not a bigoted attitude at all, as long as it's only strongly implied rather than stated explicitly. Apparently).
You have some serious hangups of your own that seem to be leaking through here. I'm really getting tired of you calling me a bigot when I've done nothing of the sort. It's childish and shallow, and it demonstrates a severe lack of ability to engage like an adult.
 
Strawmanning is abuse.
Being mistaken is different than strawmanning.
True. If somebody new to the forum were to post messages like those we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt and presume the misrepresentations might be due to mere idiocy. But bilby has 35,000 posts under his belt. We know he's not an idiot.
Disagreement over conclusions are not evidence of intention (something straw manning requires). If bilby is correct, your accusations are not straw manning. If bilby is incorrect in good faith, it is not straw manning. Making a mistake is not the exclusive province of idiots.
 
People don't have the right to abuse other people because of the way those other people make them feel.
You abuse Emily because of the way she makes you feel.

I just see you when you make the unwarranted, unreasonable, and downright bigoted conflation of "drug addict" with "homeless person".

If you don't like being thought a bigot, stop doing that.
Seriously, dude, she's not the one talking like a bigot here. If you don't like being thought a bigot by reasonable people, stop doing you.
Sorry, B20. I don't see it your way.
 
If some guy parked himself in the steps down from your bus and blocked the other riders from getting off and blocked customers from getting on, so you asked him to move to a different location, but he declined and just stood right where he was, would you summon a constable? Would it be okay for the constable to decide, without consulting the fellow in any way, to move him to a different location?
Not comparable. The bus steps are not public property.
 
People do not feel safe around homeless encampments.
People don't have the right to abuse other people because of the way those other people make them feel.
What fucking "abuse" is involved in moving people to different location that does NOT deprive other people of the right to access communal spaces?
The question then becomes where are you moving them to?
Not to mention that moving them to any location that is not the public space to which they are making access is depriving them of the right of access to that communal space.

At some point there are limits of how many people can access a space at the same time, but it is still a fact that removing people from a space deprives them of access which is their right.

Some spaces are "protected" rather than fully public or private, spaces that have a publicly accepted and known purpose (like the space around an abortion clinic), but not every location is such a "funnel" towards somewhere else. Most public places, or at least most such as we are talking about here, don't have some sort of protected purpose; they're just "places to be for now".
 
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