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Breakdown In Civil Order

TSwizzle

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Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?
Doesn’t it bother you that a violent criminal beat someone to death on a public street in one of the USA most famous cities? This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes.
Of course it does, that's fucking awful.

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.
I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
 

bilby

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Here in Seattle catch and release of violent offenders is recognized as an issue.
Recognised by criminologists, or recognised by ignorant and emotional citizens with an Internet connection and access to Fox News?

Being angry isn't evidence that you are not badly mistaken.
 

bilby

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Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?
Doesn’t it bother you that a violent criminal beat someone to death on a public street in one of the USA most famous cities? This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes.
Of course it does, that's fucking awful.

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.
I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
Your assumption of a causal link isn't supported by any evidence, indeed it is contradicted by the evidence.

Your emotional needs aren't a good basis for public policy. It's better to reduce crime, than it is to be seen to be active in attempting to reduce crime.

"...the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them." - Sir Robert Peel, 1829.
 

Politesse

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It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.
I'm more interested in solving social problems, if possible, than engaging in partisan politics. Posting story after story of the latest outrage does nothing to accomplish this end, so I find this thread and most of its contents extremely irritating. I throw a lot of my personal time and money into trying to solve my own communities' problems, and it's part of the very same SF Bay Area you claim is a crime-strewn wasteland. Both an untrue stereotype, and an unhelpful contribution even if ti weren't. It's folks like you that picket new homeless shelters and demand that mental health services be defunded, yet cry bloody murder against the DA when a homeless person starts a brush fire or assaults someone. I have lost my patience with the contradictory, irritating authoritarian cult on the Right, and their insistence that discriminating against all the people on their hate list (which necessarily includes my partner and I for some reason, read: Christian theocratic bullshit) will somehow restore social balance.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
So what is the solution? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to end the practice of early release? If so, how do you propose funding the enormous expansion of our already overburdened jail and prison system that this would require? And where is your evidence that this would even help?
 

TSwizzle

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It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.
I'm more interested in solving social problems, if possible, than engaging in partisan politics.
Male bovine excrement. Your response has been to consistently whine about republicans.
Posting story after story of the latest outrage does nothing to accomplish this end, so I find this thread and most of its contents extremely irritating.

Read that back to yourself, “story after story “. Why would there be “story after story”? Could it possibly be that certain policies are an abject failure?
I throw a lot of my personal time and money into trying to solve my own communities' problems, and it's part of the very same SF Bay Area you claim is a crime-strewn wasteland.

Is it just me though? Am I the only person that complains about the miserable conditions? Why do you think the DA was recalled?
Both an untrue stereotype, and an unhelpful contribution even if ti weren't. It's folks like you that picket new homeless shelters and demand that mental health services be defunded,
Really? Link to a post of mine where I have said such a thing.
yet cry bloody murder against the DA when a homeless person starts a brush fire or assaults someone. I have lost my patience with the contradictory, irritating authoritarian cult on the Right, and their insistence that discriminating against all the people on their hate list (which necessarily includes my partner and I for some reason, read: Christian theocratic bullshit) will somehow restore social balance.
Waaaaaahhhh, more whining.
My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
So what is the solution? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to end the practice of early release? If so, how do you propose funding the enormous expansion of our already overburdened jail and prison system that this would require? And where is your evidence that this would even help?

I would appreciate if violent criminals were detained rather than let loose to quickly reoffend and kill someone like what happened in the case I posted.
 

lpetrich

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I'm always tempted to just start posting every horrible crime that happens in Alabama or Florida and what have you for a week, just to make the point that crimes happen everywhere regardless of who the governor is.
Good idea. I'd like to see that.
 

lpetrich

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I think that we should save jails for violent offenders.

Here is a very simple way to make plenty of room for such people. Stop the drug warring and release everybody imprisoned for minor drug offenses. We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.
 

lpetrich

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It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.
... It's folks like you that picket new homeless shelters and demand that mental health services be defunded, yet cry bloody murder against the DA when a homeless person starts a brush fire or assaults someone.
I notice that after mass shootings, some right-wingers complain about inadequate mental-health services. But these are the same people who don't want to fund such services.

Politesse said:
TSwizzle said:
My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
So what is the solution? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to end the practice of early release? If so, how do you propose funding the enormous expansion of our already overburdened jail and prison system that this would require? And where is your evidence that this would even help?
Financing of those expanded prisons requires increases in taxes, and right-wingers hate paying taxes, even for parts of governments that they like, like soldiers and cops and jails.

Also, by the looks of it, if we stopped jailing drug offenders and minor offenders, we'd likely to have plenty of room for very nasty criminals.
 

Politesse

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We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.
The problem with that is that any act punishable only by a fine, is only illegal for poor people.
In the US, that describes most crimes, alas. Indeed, you find that the crimes of the wealthy tend to be handled with fines, just a part of their annual budget.
 

Politesse

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Hell, even the common perception of crimes is very class-biased. Talk to any random American, of any class, and they're likely to draw a distinction between "white collar crimes" and "serious crimes"; if a very wealthy person is doing it, it is somehow perceived as less serious or real a crime regardless of the scale of its consequences. If I go out and shoot a man on the street tomorrow, that's considered a violent crime and I should be locked up forever with no hope of release. But if I make a management decision that gets people killed on the job, it's likely that only the victims' families and maybe immediate coworkers will honestly consider me a violent criminal and my sentence is likely to be a financial penalty rather than a jail sentence, even if my decisions got a lot more people hurt. I realize that this is not exclusively an American phenomenon. But I do get tired of it sometimes.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.
 

Politesse

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I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.
Well, he is also governor of the rural parts of the state, which is to say most of it. Mass deaths from the pandemic and out of control gun crime (in our supposedly left-leaning state) are just as much things that happened on Newsom's watch as anything else. Of course, the governor does not have as much power to prevent crime and so forth as tswizzle imagines, either. He's an admin, not a king.
 

Cheerful Charlie

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We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.
The problem with that is that any act punishable only by a fine, is only illegal for poor people.

The problem is that it often does not work. So we read of the jerks who get arrested and have been arrested 50 times before.
 

lostone

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The roughest area I have ever lived in was the small in rural NC where I grew up back in the 1950s. I live in suburban Maryland near DC now. The serious criminals work downtown in DC making laws to benefit corporations and billionaires.
 

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The roughest area I have ever lived in was the small in rural NC where I grew up back in the 1950s. I live in suburban Maryland near DC now. The serious criminals work downtown in DC making laws to benefit corporations and billionaires.
It's interesting how people who consider small towns quiet perhaps have never considered what it's like being queer in a small town.

In the city I occasionally worry some vaguely unhinged weirdo may think whatever money I'm not actually carrying is worth attacking a person with a really big, solid stick. Even so, that has not happened in all the time I have lived here. A couple times, biking past a really rough part of town, I've been harassed on my bike, but offering to show them a bike lock up close has also always stopped that.

Contrast that to the country, where it wouldn't be anonymous poor people being a little problematic but well known local troublemakers that the law in the area will do nothing about, who will turn up time and again, and who have guns and whose church quite possibly preaches that people like me should be put to the torch...
 

Politesse

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It's interesting how people who consider small towns quiet perhaps have never considered what it's like being queer in a small town.
Eh, it sure acquaints you early to the f*cked up sh*t goes on behind closed doors of good churchgoing folk in the wicked little towns of America.



If you know, you know...
 

TSwizzle

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Another sickening attack in San Francisco, an elderly woman viciously beaten by a group of youths, one of them only 11;

Police have confirmed an 11-year-old was involved in the brutal beating and robbery of a 70-year-old woman in San Francisco earlier this month. Horrific video footage shows a 70-year-old Asian woman being attacked by a group of juveniles in broad daylight. A security camera from the complex located at the 100 block of San Francisco Street shows the four youths approaching the elderly woman and dragging her to the floor before one wearing a yellow and black baseball cap stomps her in the face.
According to the latest available FBI Unified Crime Report, San Francisco had the highest overall crime rate of the 20 largest cities in the United States, recording 6,917 crimes per 100,000 population in 2019.
Crime remains stubbornly high in the Golden Gate City, with overall crime up 7.4 percent as of August 14 compared to the same time last year. Assaults are up nearly 12 percent, and robberies are up 2.4 percent. Thefts have spiked by 17.5 percent compared to last year, and rapes have also increased by 9.5 percent.

Daily Mail
 

Jimmy Higgins

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OMFG! An attack happened in San Francisco weeks ago?!

Also, it is Mad Max out in California! Yes, this doesn't include 2021, but it really does speak to the Bullshit that is The Daily Fail. I'm not certain who TSwizzle thinks he is fooling, beside himself.
 

Oleg

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OMFG! An attack happened in San Francisco weeks ago?!

Also, it is Mad Max out in California! Yes, this doesn't include 2021, but it really does speak to the Bullshit that is The Daily Fail. I'm not certain who TSwizzle thinks he is fooling, beside himself.
Didn’t SF oust it’s progressive DA? Weird. Why they do that?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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OMFG! An attack happened in San Francisco weeks ago?!

Also, it is Mad Max out in California! Yes, this doesn't include 2021, but it really does speak to the Bullshit that is The Daily Fail. I'm not certain who TSwizzle thinks he is fooling, beside himself.
Didn’t SF oust it’s progressive DA? Weird. Why they do that?
Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
 

Oleg

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OMFG! An attack happened in San Francisco weeks ago?!

Also, it is Mad Max out in California! Yes, this doesn't include 2021, but it really does speak to the Bullshit that is The Daily Fail. I'm not certain who TSwizzle thinks he is fooling, beside himself.
Didn’t SF oust it’s progressive DA? Weird. Why they do that?
Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?
 

Politesse

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Another sickening attack in San Francisco, an elderly woman viciously beaten by a group of youths, one of them only 11;

Police have confirmed an 11-year-old was involved in the brutal beating and robbery of a 70-year-old woman in San Francisco earlier this month. Horrific video footage shows a 70-year-old Asian woman being attacked by a group of juveniles in broad daylight. A security camera from the complex located at the 100 block of San Francisco Street shows the four youths approaching the elderly woman and dragging her to the floor before one wearing a yellow and black baseball cap stomps her in the face.
According to the latest available FBI Unified Crime Report, San Francisco had the highest overall crime rate of the 20 largest cities in the United States, recording 6,917 crimes per 100,000 population in 2019.
Crime remains stubbornly high in the Golden Gate City, with overall crime up 7.4 percent as of August 14 compared to the same time last year. Assaults are up nearly 12 percent, and robberies are up 2.4 percent. Thefts have spiked by 17.5 percent compared to last year, and rapes have also increased by 9.5 percent.

Daily Mail
I assume the 11 year old had an extensive arrest record but had been released early without bail at the behest of the governor?
 

Oleg

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Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?
Wut? It’s not just that crime, like homicide, burglary, and car thefts were up; it’s that the DA very publicly decided not to prosecute. Saying that the public was bamboozled by all those right-wingers in SF media is, wait, what?






1661198084495.jpeg
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?
Wut? It’s not just that crime, like homicide, burglary, and car thefts were up; it’s that the DA very publicly decided not to prosecute. Saying that the public was bamboozled by all those right-wingers in SF media is, wait, what?
Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.
 

bilby

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OMFG! An attack happened in San Francisco weeks ago?!

Also, it is Mad Max out in California! Yes, this doesn't include 2021, but it really does speak to the Bullshit that is The Daily Fail. I'm not certain who TSwizzle thinks he is fooling, beside himself.
They're not reporting this because it's news; They are reporting it because "horrific video" is the way to get the maximum number of clicks, and therefore the maximum revenue.

If the exact same crime had occurred but no video been captured, none of us would ever have heard of it unless we happened to live in the immediate area, or know somebody who knows someone involved (victim, perpetrator or witness).

Violent crime isn't increasing, but with the massive proliferation of the ability to take photographs and videos of crimes in progress, and to distribute these worldwide with little effort, we are now seeing vast numbers of violent crimes that a few decades ago would have occurred without ever coming to our attention.

With a world population of many billions, even extraordinarily low rates of violent crimes can now feed a daily drip, drip, drip of "horrific" straight to our handheld devices.

Things were much worse in the late twentieth century; But nobody (except a handful of criminologists and statisticians) knew, so it didn't matter.
 

Oleg

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Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?
Wut? It’s not just that crime, like homicide, burglary, and car thefts were up; it’s that the DA very publicly decided not to prosecute. Saying that the public was bamboozled by all those right-wingers in SF media is, wait, what?
Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.

Again, it’s not just the rise in crime; it’s the DA response to it. People notice when their neighborhood experiences an uptick in crime - because they live there. And when it’s the same bad actors over and over, even lefty SF says enough.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?
Wut? It’s not just that crime, like homicide, burglary, and car thefts were up; it’s that the DA very publicly decided not to prosecute. Saying that the public was bamboozled by all those right-wingers in SF media is, wait, what?
Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.
Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?
 

Oleg

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Because the people were convinced that crime was at a historic level high, that it was a local anomaly caused by his policies.

But it isn't, and it wasn't.

It was a damn lie.

Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
Yes. Foolish people believing their lying eyes.
Why did you bother to respond to my post without reading it?
Wut? It’s not just that crime, like homicide, burglary, and car thefts were up; it’s that the DA very publicly decided not to prosecute. Saying that the public was bamboozled by all those right-wingers in SF media is, wait, what?
Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.
Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?
All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?
All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?
So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.
 

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Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?
All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?
So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.
I've got some guesses why they bothered. Mostly, it strikes me as similar to the reasons Trausti bothered.
 

Oleg

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Yes, thanks for demonstrating that crime (some) went up in San Francisco. We already knew that. That wasn't in dispute.

Rural murder rates are up 25% across the US. Gonna blame that on the San Fran DA? Where are the stats demonstrating the San Fran crime rate is up notably more than it has risen during the same period across the US?
All politics are local, Jimmy. Telling a SF resident not to worry about the decay and lawlessness in their neighborhood because some county in Kentucky has a statistically worse crime rate is just, er, silly. Is that whataboutism?
So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.

How is choosing not to prosecute crime not the DA’s fault? That was the stated reason for the recall.

 

Jarhyn

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Choosing not to prosecute some crimes does not mean failing to prosecute others. Some folks act as if there can't, you know, be priorities at the DA's office which actually target real threats...
 

TSwizzle

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In a surprise move, the insufferable prick governor of California Gavin Newsom has vetoed the setting up of safe spaces for junkies to shoot up their drug of choice;

Citing the potential for “unintended consequences,” California Governor Gavin Newsom on Monday vetoed a bill that would have legalized drug injection and consumption sites in an effort to reduce overdoses. “I have long supported the cutting edge of harm reduction strategies,” Newsom said in a statement announcing the veto. “However, I am acutely concerned about the operations of safe injection sites without strong, engaged local leadership and well-documented, vetted, and thoughtful operational and sustainability plans.”
KTLA
 

Jimmy Higgins

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link

article said:
"The individual then entered the track area, retrieved a rock, and pulled himself back onto the platform," the police department said. "The individual proceeded to use the rock to strike the victim’s head multiple times, causing the victim to lose consciousness."

A spate of high-profile subway crimes in New York City this year shocked residents, including the killing of Michelle Go, the beating with a hammer of another woman who was kicked downstairs and the stabbing of at least six people over one weekend.

In April, 10 people were shot and 13 more were injured when a man opened fire on an N train.
Just how far does the impact of Gov. Newsom and some DA in San Francisco reach?! Something must be done!
 

Jimmy Higgins

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So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.
How is choosing not to prosecute crime not the DA’s fault? That was the stated reason for the recall.
Your merry-go-round argument is getting old. Crime in San Francisco has not been shown to have risen in stark contrast to national averages.
 

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Even though the cities' survival is easy to verify.

Oliver Willis on Twitter: "most liberals do not understand the extent to which fox news viewers seriously believe multiple us cities were burned to the ground in summer 2020. literally burned to the ground." / Twitter
noting
Ben Albert on Twitter: "@owillis I still frequently run into “entire cities burned to the ground”" / Twitter

Oliver Willis on Twitter: ""they dont really believe that though"
they do. they absolutely 100% do. i dont know how else to say this. they believe it completely." / Twitter


Jeremy Facklam on Twitter: "@BAlbertBen @owillis I hear this ALL THE TIME from conservative friends/family in Wisconsin about Minneapolis/St. Paul even though when I tell them it’s not true and I live there the response is just “ehhh I don’t believe you”" / Twitter

Stephanie Thompson on Twitter: "@jfacklam @BAlbertBen @owillis I live on the border and when I tell certain people there are not dozens of illegal immigrants tearing through my back yard every day they literally don't believe me" / Twitter

Christie McKaig on Twitter: "@owillis I have a sister who absolutely believes this. I can’t make her believe otherwise." / Twitter

Dave’s Inner Rage on Twitter: "@owillis My sister-in-law was shocked to learn how small the area of protests in Portland were when I showed her on a map of the city. She honestly believed the entire downtown area had been completely destroyed." / Twitter

mrs meowkins on Twitter: "@Autolykos_84 @owillis I live 40 minutes from Portland and a woman I know fully believes the city is burned down and what is left is too dangerous to visit" / Twitter
 

lostone

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So you've got nothing. I said it was an illusion that any of this was the DA's fault and you've shown nothing to suggest otherwise... making me wonder why you wasted your time.
How is choosing not to prosecute crime not the DA’s fault? That was the stated reason for the recall.
Your merry-go-round argument is getting old. Crime in San Francisco has not been shown to have risen in stark contrast to national averages.
I live near Baltimore. It has one of the highest crime rates in the US. We do not live in terror of going into Baltimore. I live in the suburbs of DC and visit Baltimore frequently. Many of my neighbors take so many precautions against their homes being broken into and robbed that it borders on paranoia. The threat is much exaggerated, at least locally. To be sure, there are areas I would avoid, but the extent of the problem is much exaggerated.
 

TSwizzle

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Society really has broken down;

This is the astounding moment a woman shamelessly filed her feet on board a train in London as passengers look on in disbelief. Startling footage shows the unknown passenger, who has brought her own foot file on the Southwestern Railway service train journey through London, noisily grating away at the dry skin on her heel. A male train conductor on the Southwestern Railway service can be seen asking the woman to put her shoe back on and stop shaving her feet onboard the train.

Daily Mail

Bad enough the idiots that get on planes wearing flip flops but this is just too much.
 

Loren Pechtel

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During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country.
Both are dwarfed by the Islamic terrorism of course.

That said, when he wrote this in 2002 he was probably right. You had right wing extremists like McVeigh, and less active left wing extremist scene compared with 1960s-80s.

But now things are different. Widespread rioting and unrests (called "uprisings" by those engaging in it) since 2014, by Antifa and #BLM which has Marxist roots and is glorifying 70s terrorists like Joanne Chesimard. You have resurgence of hate groups like Nation of Islam, New Black Panther Party, NFAC (who hid a cop killer in their compound in my neck of the woods recently), Black Hammer Party etc.
Feds investigating Black Hammer Party in wide-ranging criminal probe

It is not politically correct to point to those groups, as the left wing terrorist groups are often "minority led", but they are a real threat.

No. Unrest isn't terrorism.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I think that we should save jails for violent offenders.

Here is a very simple way to make plenty of room for such people. Stop the drug warring and release everybody imprisoned for minor drug offenses. We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.

So nothing happens to the burglar or shoplifter, they're free to offend as much as they want.

At some point you have to use jail because you have nothing else to deter them with.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.
We do have a catch-and-release problem. The problem is that we went a bit too far in bail reform. I agree with the basic concept--we had a problem where being stuck in jail without being able to afford bail ended up being the de-facto punishment in many cases and note that since that's before the trial there was no determination of guilt.

Unfortunately, going to a zero-bail system means that repeat offenders stay out of jail until trial--and the longer the period between offense and punishment the less deterrence there is.

What I would like to see is a middle ground: zero-bail until you violate it or reoffend. If you're out on zero-bail and are arrested for something else go back to the old system. If you fail to show up when you're supposed to there is a rebuttable presumption that you can't be trusted and you don't get zero-bail in the future. (Not a certainty--things happen. People fail to get notifications of date changes, transportation breakdowns happen etc. Not everybody has money for a taxi when the car doesn't go, you don't even have that option if there was an accident... Last night I was watching a presentation by a local mountaineering group--they got tied up by the police for hours because they found a freshly-dead body in the wilderness. Most of the time when us backcountry guys find a body there's no questions because the body has obviously been there for a while, but in this case it was less than one hour--less time than it took search and rescue to get there.)
 

Loren Pechtel

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Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
The problem was his anti-prosecution position. I certainly don't agree with right-wing ideas of "justice" but he went too far in the other direction.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Please show me the stats showing the rampant rise in crime in San Francisco relative to the rest of the country. A few Tweets don't count.

Steve Bank is out of Seattle and Seattle legitimately appears to be having a disproportionate increase in crime relative to the nation, San Francisco hasn't.
Those tweets do count. They're all showing people that should have been behind bars, unable to commit the repeated offenses they were committing.
 

Jarhyn

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Yes, crime went up, but it is still relatively low compared to where it was. But it didn't matter, because the right-wing continued attacking the guy because of fictional crime spikes, when crime had merely increased there like almost everywhere else in the country.
The problem was his anti-prosecution position. I certainly don't agree with right-wing ideas of "justice" but he went too far in the other direction.
In the other direction with respect to whom? Are they prosecuting less crimes overall or participating in less prosecution activity? Did they start just sandbagging and doing nothing but twiddling their assholes all day long on the taxpayer dime? If not, which crimes did they shift to prosecuting, instead?

Would you rather they not prosecute those other crimes?

A prosecutor's office has a zero-sum game on prosecution due to limited material resources.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Bad enough the idiots that get on planes wearing flip flops
Given the stupid insistence on security theatre that requires passengers to remove their footwear at security checkpoints before boarding, this seems like a fairly smart idea to me.
Flip-flops would not be acceptable. I've been refused wearing the slip-on covers that tradesmen often use to protect floors. At this point I have some very low rise "socks" with extra traction. They look enough like the socks I'm putting them on over that they don't get questioned.
 

Politesse

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I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.
Devastating acts of violence. Devastating? Hyperbole much?

How often are violent criminals actually released early and commit serious crimes? Probably not too often. Yes, it likely happens, but to the point that we are going to suggest it is endemic in our society? No, it isn't. The truth is, outside of Seattle, crime has recently risen and dropped... depending on the crimes one looks at, including California. Some violent crimes are up, some aren't. We see this broadly across the country (red and blue). But some want to just point at certain crimes and yell the sky is falling because of the Dems (...and Gov. Newsom) all the while rural murder rate is up 25%.
We do have a catch-and-release problem. The problem is that we went a bit too far in bail reform. I agree with the basic concept--we had a problem where being stuck in jail without being able to afford bail ended up being the de-facto punishment in many cases and note that since that's before the trial there was no determination of guilt.

Unfortunately, going to a zero-bail system means that repeat offenders stay out of jail until trial--and the longer the period between offense and punishment the less deterrence there is.

What I would like to see is a middle ground: zero-bail until you violate it or reoffend. If you're out on zero-bail and are arrested for something else go back to the old system. If you fail to show up when you're supposed to there is a rebuttable presumption that you can't be trusted and you don't get zero-bail in the future. (Not a certainty--things happen. People fail to get notifications of date changes, transportation breakdowns happen etc. Not everybody has money for a taxi when the car doesn't go, you don't even have that option if there was an accident... Last night I was watching a presentation by a local mountaineering group--they got tied up by the police for hours because they found a freshly-dead body in the wilderness. Most of the time when us backcountry guys find a body there's no questions because the body has obviously been there for a while, but in this case it was less than one hour--less time than it took search and rescue to get there.)
A reasoned poistion, and if our system were otherwise just and fair, I think it would be the best course of action.
 
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