Breakdown In Civil Order

[Oleg]

Kansas City. With BLM bump. 2021.

 

[laughing dog]

You produced no evidence that our higher incarceration rate is due to the different demographics.

It's there's more violent crime committed in the US, you'll get more people in prision for violent crime. Hello?

More handwaved claims.

While the United States represents about 4.2 percent of the world's population,[3] it houses around 20 percent of the world's prisoners.[

NYC. 2021. Demographics matter. A lot.

That rebuts or illustrates nothing.

 

[Oleg]

More handwaved claims.

Most people incarcerated in the US are there for violent crimes. Black people are grossly overrepresented as violent crime offenders. For 2021, they were 60-64% of homicide offenders. If black people could dropped their offender rate to that of hispanics, it'd be tranquility. But until they do, we're going to have a higher incarceration rate than other developed countries.

 

[laughing dog]

More handwaved claims.

Most people incarcerated in the US are there for violent crimes. Black people are grossly overrepresented as violent crime offenders. For 2021, they were 60-64% of homicide offenders. If black people could dropped their offender rate to that of hispanics, it'd be tranquility. But until they do, we're going to have a higher incarceration rate than other developed countries.

Bullshit.

The USA incarceration rate is 214 per 100,000 (US incarceration rates by race) while only 4 European countries (Russia, Turkey, Croatia and Azerbijian) have incarceration rates greater than or the same as us (European Incarcertation rates).

So you can peddle your "racial" crime theories to somewhere else.

 

[Oleg]

Bullshit.

Really? Isn't weird how this chart from your link pairs so well with the crime stats? So weird.

More than 651,800 persons (62% of all state prisoners) were serving sentences in state prison for a violent offense at yearend 2020,

https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/document/p21st_sumB.pdf

 

[ZiprHead]

More handwaved claims.

Most people incarcerated in the US are there for violent crimes. Black people are grossly overrepresented as violent crime offenders. For 2021, they were 60-64% of homicide offenders. If black people could dropped their offender rate to that of hispanics, it'd be tranquility. But until they do, we're going to have a higher incarceration rate than other developed countries.

So what do you propose to do about it, other than complain about them?

 

[laughing dog]

Bullshit.

Really? Isn't weird how this chart from your link pairs so well with the crime stats? So weird.

More than 651,800 persons (62% of all state prisoners) were serving sentences in state prison for a violent offense at yearend 2020,

https://bjs.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh236/files/media/document/p21st_sumB.pdf

You are grasping. The bullshit is your apologia for our higher incarceration rate.

 

[Oleg]

You are grasping. The bullshit is your apologia for our higher incarceration rate.

This just isn't hard. In 2021, blacks were 2/3 of homicide offenders. (Feel free to show us how the FBI stats are wrong.) Most people in prision are there for violent offenses. (Feel free to show us how the Bureau of Justice Statistics got it wrong.) Blacks make up 12-13% of the US population; far more than any other developed country. If the black violent crime rate could be reduced, the number of people incarcerated would be reduced. Unless you feel violent offenders shouldn't be incarcerated?

As Canada's demographics change, so with will its incarceration rate.

Black communities plagued by high number of homicides, low support for loved ones, data shows

Predominantly Black neighbourhoods in Toronto are disproportionately impacted by homicides

Black Canadians and the justice system

Anthony Morgan says the targeted policing of Black people in Canada isn’t only happening in the justice system. It is also taking place in our education, child welfare and health care systems.

policyoptions.irpp.org

Black people are dramatically over-represented in Canada’s prison system, making up 8.6 of the federal prison population, despite the fact they make up only 3 percent of the population. What is more, between 2003 and 2013, the incarceration rate among Black people increased by nearly 90 percent.

 

[laughing dog]

You are grasping. The bullshit is your apologia for our higher incarceration rate.

This just isn't hard...

Apparently it is hard. I showed the incarceration rate of US whites is higher than all but 4 European countries, so why you feel the need to double down on black incarceration rates is fascinating.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

One thing I find interesting is that people with economic power commit acts of violence, but we don't arrest them or convict them. Conversely, people with zero economic power, all they own is their bodies, so naturally when they act out it involves their bodies, sometimes violent interactions. People with power are often protected by legal systems to unethically take advantage of others, use proxies for direct violence, or hurt others using systems of fraud that aren't legally called fraud. Putin and George W Bush are obvious examples, perhaps also Enron, oil executives, beneficiaries of Flint, Michigan policies or train derailment profiteers, and slum lords, their actions leading to tangible physical damage on persons. But I'm sure violence happens on a smaller scale, too, by smaller parties. I mean, I bought a loaf of bread on sale yesterday for $3.99. On sale. Someone, and I don't who the fuck they are, is laughing all the way to the bank. Someone else is stealing a loaf of bread and might punch someone in the face and flee if caught. And elsewhere some senior citizen is slowly dying because their fixed income isn't sustainable in this world of legal price gouging and food profiteering. But it's not time to look at any of that right now. What we need is some kind of racial scapegoat. Because that's what we do when fascism is right around the corner.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

More handwaved claims.

Most people incarcerated in the US are there for violent crimes. Black people are grossly overrepresented as violent crime offenders. For 2021, they were 60-64% of homicide offenders. If black people could dropped their offender rate to that of hispanics, it'd be tranquility. But until they do, we're going to have a higher incarceration rate than other developed countries.

So what do you propose to do about it, other than complain about them?

Step #1 should be to get rid of the drug war.

 

[Oleg]

Apparently it is hard. I showed the incarceration rate of US whites is higher than all but 4 European countries, so why you feel the need to double down on black incarceration rates is fascinating.

The BJS methodology is far more encompossing than the European Stats.

The NPS [BJS] jurisdiction counts include persons held in prisons, penitentiaries, correctional facilities, halfway houses, boot camps, farms, training or treatment centers, and hospitals. Counts also include prisoners who were temporarily absent (less than 30 days), in court, or on work release; housed in privately operated facilities, local jails, or other state or federal facilities; or serving concurrent sentences for more than one correctional authority.

Apples and oranges.

Council of Europe Annual Penal Statistics – SPACE I 2020 1

Total number of inmates (including pre-trial detainees): The total number of inmates (including pretrial detainees), also known as prison stock, corresponds to the total number of persons effectively placed in penal institutions (prisons or any other detention facility).

 

[lpetrich]

Step #1 should be to get rid of the drug war.

I agree. Stop the drug warring.

 

[TomC]

Step #1 should be to get rid of the drug war.

Really this. The crimes committed that are indirectly related to the black market are huge.

To me, it's a lot like abortion. I oppose both recreational drug abuse and abortion. That doesn't mean I support laws that eliminate oversight, create black markets, and stymie efforts to reduce the behavior at the source.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Must be genetic.

 

[laughing dog]

Apparently it is hard. I showed the incarceration rate of US whites is higher than all but 4 European countries, so why you feel the need to double down on black incarceration rates is fascinating.

The BJS methodology is far more encompossing than the European Stats.

The NPS [BJS] jurisdiction counts include persons held in prisons, penitentiaries, correctional facilities, halfway houses, boot camps, farms, training or treatment centers, and hospitals. Counts also include prisoners who were temporarily absent (less than 30 days), in court, or on work release; housed in privately operated facilities, local jails, or other state or federal facilities; or serving concurrent sentences for more than one correctional authority.

Apples and oranges.

Council of Europe Annual Penal Statistics – SPACE I 2020 1

Total number of inmates (including pre-trial detainees): The total number of inmates (including pretrial detainees), also known as prison stock, corresponds to the total number of persons effectively placed in penal institutions (prisons or any other detention facility).

You dismiss statistics you find discomforting when they show the US (and white people) in a bad light, but you embrace statistics that show people of color (especially black people) in a bad light.

 

[TomC]

View attachment 42385

Must be genetic.

Another possibility is that countries more inclined to capital punishment have lower incarceration rates.
I see that Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan aren't on the list.
Tom

 

[lostone]

Incarceration Rates by Country 2023

 

[Derec]

One thing I find interesting is that people with economic power commit acts of violence, but we don't arrest them or convict them.

Of course we do. Weinstein is in prison for example.

Conversely, people with zero economic power, all they own is their bodies, so naturally when they act out it involves their bodies, sometimes violent interactions.

And that justifies it?

People with power are often protected by legal systems to unethically take advantage of others, use proxies for direct violence, or hurt others using systems of fraud that aren't legally called fraud.

Like what?

Putin and George W Bush are obvious examples,

These are not just people with economic power, but heads of state. And I will give you Putin as a war criminal, but why is W an obvious example? In any case, what does that have to do with your attempts to justify violent crime in the streets? Things like war crimes are not really what this thread is about, so why are you derailing?

But I'm sure violence happens on a smaller scale, too, by smaller parties. I mean, I bought a loaf of bread on sale yesterday for $3.99. On sale. Someone, and I don't who the fuck they are, is laughing all the way to the bank.

That is really stretching the term "violence" well past its breaking point.

Someone else is stealing a loaf of bread and might punch someone in the face and flee if caught.

What is this? Les Mis? Nobody needs to steal a loaf of bread in today's US. And thieves and robbers prefer high value goods that are easy to fence. Not bread. If they steal foodstuffs, it's more likely steak.
Police seek man accused of stealing $15K worth of meat from Roswell steakhouse

And elsewhere some senior citizen is slowly dying because their fixed income isn't sustainable

There are many programs that help people with food. SNAP but also private foodbanks. Nobody in the US needs to steal or rob in order to not go hungry. Might not be filet mignon though.

in this world of legal price gouging and food profiteering.

Legal price gouging? Food profiteering? How do you define these terms?
Grocery stores, bakeries, and suppliers of flour and other ingredients are businesses that seek profit. What's wrong with that?
Can you show that these businesses have unreasonable profit margins?

But it's not time to look at any of that right now. What we need is some kind of racial scapegoat. Because that's what we do when fascism is right around the corner.

Exaggerations are not helpful here. Neither is trying to excuse theft and robbery.

 

[Shadowy Man]

One thing I find interesting is that people with economic power commit acts of violence, but we don't arrest them or convict them.

Of course we do. Weinstein is in prison for example.

And we all know how easy that was.