Breakdown In Civil Order

[thebeave]

Meanwhile, in beautiful, sunny California:

 

[steve_bank]

Drop the gibberish.

I have and still live in the real world.

I said nothing about any inherit inferiority. As I have said before, from my experience working with people from around the world people with same general education equivalent to what we have perform no better or worse than anyone else.

In a news segment a black woman from Ca was complaining Nigerian immigrant womem were rising faster in the corporate world than American birn blacks. Could it be attitude and culture pay an important role? I have heard blacks in Seattle compain about black African immigrants. From what I have seen they tend o do well.

Equity as the progressives are promoting is a myth.

GWB had his 'no child left behind' policy on education. The idea being nationally we should have an education system that turnss out a homogeneous uniform high school grad.

A lot of money was spent and it never happened.

The Moynihan Report circa 1960 was controversial. One conclusion was that performance in primary education was tied directly to family economics regardless of race.

Another controversial conclusion was that welfare while well intended was destroying the black family.

What equity boils down to is income and jobs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In a news segment a black woman from Ca was complaining Nigerian immigrant womem were rising faster in the corporate world than American birn blacks. Could it be attitude and culture pay an important role? I have heard blacks in Seattle compain about black African immigrants. From what I have seen they tend o do well.

Yup, this is the damning data--black immigrants on average fare much better than American-born blacks. If it really were discrimination we wouldn't see that.

 

[Oleg]

In a news segment a black woman from Ca was complaining Nigerian immigrant womem were rising faster in the corporate world than American birn blacks. Could it be attitude and culture pay an important role? I have heard blacks in Seattle compain about black African immigrants. From what I have seen they tend o do well.

Yup, this is the damning data--black immigrants on average fare much better than American-born blacks. If it really were discrimination we wouldn't see that.

African immigrants, especially from West Africa, tend to be the creme de la creme. Very good chance the successful ones are Igbo. Igbo were traders and heavily involved in the slave trade. Ancestry matters more than people like to believe.

 

[Jarhyn]

In a news segment a black woman from Ca was complaining Nigerian immigrant womem were rising faster in the corporate world than American birn blacks. Could it be attitude and culture pay an important role? I have heard blacks in Seattle compain about black African immigrants. From what I have seen they tend o do well.

Yup, this is the damning data--black immigrants on average fare much better than American-born blacks. If it really were discrimination we wouldn't see that.

African immigrants, especially from West Africa, tend to be the creme de la creme. Very good chance the successful ones are Igbo. Igbo were traders and heavily involved in the slave trade. Ancestry matters more than people like to believe.

And as a result, they are much like Asian immigrants in this regard: they have not faced generations of poverty. They come with a large amount of inherited wealth with a reasonable support structure. They have a community of immediate peers with wealth, as well.

On top of that, they haven't been raised surrounded by a culture of racist messaging their whole life.

In many cases they will have inherited cultural messaging from their parents that is just as historically fucked up, as slave traders, as were the white slave buyers.

Having access to wealth and a community of peers makes a lot of difference, and it's not even entirely clear whether all the things that go into that difference are good.

 

[Tigers!]

Oleg.

@ Oleg — There IS one way you can be useful here. How did you get fooled? Where did you get your URL?

If you do a simple search you’ll find it. Are you suggesting the FBI’s website has been compromised, or something? Really. Type in “FBI most wanted domestic terrorist.” Sorry to bust your narrative.

So, you're unwilling or unable to acknowledge that the page you linked too was, at best, obsolescent — the most recent crime mentioned in the several Wanted posters there was in 1984 — Thirty-eight years ago.

Got it.

Perhaps you could explain why the last crime being committed in 1984 is important. We are still looking for Nazis despite their last crime being in 1945 (76 years ago). Granted we will not look for much longer.
The fact that those mentioned in the list are on their 70s or 80s is not a reason not to look for them.

 

[Oleg]

In many cases they will have inherited cultural messaging from their parents that is just as historically fucked up, as slave traders, as were the white slave buyers.

Well, okay. But I'd guess those early Igbo who engaged successfully in trade had a selective advantage. It's gene-culture evolution. Those who did well at trade had more offspring. The smarter you were the more children you had. Makes a bit more sense. The "cultural messaging" argument seems unpersuasive as "do you homework" is hardly a cultural secret.

 

[Jarhyn]

In many cases they will have inherited cultural messaging from their parents that is just as historically fucked up, as slave traders, as were the white slave buyers.

Well, okay. But I'd guess those early Igbo who engaged successfully in trade had a selective advantage. It's gene-culture evolution. Those who did well at trade had more offspring. The smarter you were the more children you had. Makes a bit more sense. The "cultural messaging" argument seems unpersuasive as "do you homework" is hardly a cultural secret.

Who engaged successfully in the trade of early human lives didn't have a selective advantage. That's not a genetic trait I want. When I see people expressing the phenotype of "acts like they would sell another human being into bondage", I reject that. I wouldn't fuck it. If it tried to fuck me I would kill it. If it worked for me I would fire it. Note: it.

Take special note so that you don't fucking try taking what I am saying in bad faith:
acts like they would sell another human being into bondage.

Only and exactly that. Nothing about skin color. Nothing about anything else.

Those who would sell another human into bondage do not deserve to be treated as anything but things.

If your cultural secret is slavery, then there will be words. And more than words.

If you need a suitable selection pressure to not treat humans as equals prior and during their education and upbringings, and leave their history out of evaluation of their immediate merits, and have an eclectic and wide understanding of all things with merit to the context, this is a selection pressure: Artificial selection against slavers.

Even so, I would hope education could bring someone over. "Can learn to not be a slaver piece of shit" is a great trait to have validated in the mix, with which to assault latent "slavery" right in it's "recalcitrance" as a genotype.

 

[Oleg]

In many cases they will have inherited cultural messaging from their parents that is just as historically fucked up, as slave traders, as were the white slave buyers.

Well, okay. But I'd guess those early Igbo who engaged successfully in trade had a selective advantage. It's gene-culture evolution. Those who did well at trade had more offspring. The smarter you were the more children you had. Makes a bit more sense. The "cultural messaging" argument seems unpersuasive as "do you homework" is hardly a cultural secret.

Who engaged successfully in the trade of early human lives didn't have a selective advantage. That's not a genetic trait I want. When I see people expressing the phenotype of "acts like they would sell another human being into bondage", I reject that. I wouldn't fuck it. If it tried to fuck me I would kill it. If it worked for me I would fire it. Note: it.

Take special note so that you don't fucking try taking what I am saying in bad faith:
acts like they would sell another human being into bondage.

Only and exactly that. Nothing about skin color. Nothing about anything else.

Those who would sell another human into bondage do not deserve to be treated as anything but things.

If your cultural secret is slavery, then there will be words. And more than words.

If you need a suitable selection pressure to not treat humans as equals prior and during their education and upbringings, and leave their history out of evaluation of their immediate merits, this is a selection pressure. Artificial selection against slavers.

Wut? That slavery is bad is a recent (and primarly Western) construction. It's not that engaging in the slave trade per se gave a selective advantage. The Igbo did more than just slavery. It's that entrepenrualship requires intelligence. So there was a selective pressure for intelligence.

 

[Jarhyn]

Wut? That slavery is bad is a recent (and primarly Western) construction.

So do you, or do you not, believe that people should be empowered over one another in a nonconsensual relationship of forced servitude and bondage?

This statement I quoted doesn't seem to imply that you do.

 

[Swammerdami]

There is hardly any GOP in LA.

Nitpick: I don't really mean to pick on Derec — "We all know what he meant" — but some lead-ins to punchlines are too good to pass up!

Of all the 3000+ counties in the U.S.A., guess which one recorded the MOST votes for Donald J. Trump in 2020? And in 2016? (You don't need to guess: The MIT Election Data and Science Lab has such data available for download.)

I'd put the answer in SPOILER tags but with this lead-in everyone is going to guess the answer. The U.S. county that recorded the most Trump votes was . . .
. . . Los Angeles County, California!

Spoiler

L.A. County also reported the most votes for Biden. And for Ms. Clinton.

In fact Trump's seven top-voting counties are almost the same (unordered) list as Biden's seven top-voting counties. Exceptions: Miami-Dade is #7 on Trump's list but way down at #11 for Biden. King Cty in Washington is #6 for Biden, but #11 for Trump.

 

[Oleg]

Wut? That slavery is bad is a recent (and primarly Western) construction.

So do you, or do you not, believe that people should be empowered over one another in a nonconsensual relationship of forced servitude and bondage?

This statement I quoted doesn't seem to imply that you do.

I do believe slavery is wrong. But I appreaciate that's because I live in the 21st Century after the 19th Century Western moral cursade to end it. But the Igbo particpation in slavery is beside the point.

 

[Swammerdami]

Wut? That slavery is bad is a recent (and primarly Western) construction.

So do you, or do you not, believe that people should be empowered over one another in a nonconsensual relationship of forced servitude and bondage?

This statement I quoted doesn't seem to imply that you do.

I do believe slavery is wrong. But I appreaciate that's because I live in the 21st Century after the 19th Century Western moral cursade to end it. But the Igbo particpation in slavery is beside the point.

I think the idea that slavery is bad is older (and less exclusively Western) than you imply. See  Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom. A Chinese Emperor abolished slavery over 2000 years ago; Ashoka the Great of India abolished the slave trade even earlier than that. Earlier still Solon the Lawgiver freed Athens' slaves.

More than 900 years ago the Council of London decreed "Let no one dare hereafter to engage in the infamous business, prevalent in England, of selling men like animals." Peruse the timeline and see many decrees by European rulers to abolish slavery even before "white man" landed on Plymouth Rock.

 

[prideandfall]

Oleg.

@ Oleg — There IS one way you can be useful here. How did you get fooled? Where did you get your URL?

If you do a simple search you’ll find it. Are you suggesting the FBI’s website has been compromised, or something? Really. Type in “FBI most wanted domestic terrorist.” Sorry to bust your narrative.

So, you're unwilling or unable to acknowledge that the page you linked too was, at best, obsolescent — the most recent crime mentioned in the several Wanted posters there was in 1984 — Thirty-eight years ago.

Got it.

Perhaps you could explain why the last crime being committed in 1984 is important. We are still looking for Nazis despite their last crime being in 1945 (76 years ago).

Because "how long ago it happened" isn't the point.
"How recently it's been happening" is the point.

In the US as of 2022 right-wing extremist violence is the number one domestic terrorism threat - and in fact, it's the *only* domestic terrorism threat.
There is no left-wing extremist violence in the US, full stop.
That you have to go back to the 70s to try and find an example of left-wing violence in order to try and justify delusion that left-wing violence is a thing pretty solidly proves the point that it is absolutely not a thing.

 

[bilby]

The idea that slavery is bad has been widespread since the very beginning of the practice; But mostly amongst slaves, whose opinions were not usually considered important.

Most of history is the history of a tiny number of self-important wankers who didn't even notice that they weren't noticing the vast majority of people, largely because they didn't think of everyone else as 'people' at all.

Slaves weren't people. Foreigners weren't people (unless they were colonial rivals, in which case they were people, but not decent or worthy). Women weren't people. Poor people were an oxymoron.

"People" meant the aristocracy, and the aristocracy were the only people who were really people. To think otherwise was so absurd that even lunatics didn't indulge in such wild speculation.

To suggest that "the people" were actually people, with opinions that might be taken into account when making decisions, well, that's just beyond absurd. A slave was no more worth listening to than was a dog or a horse. A man might have a favourite horse, but he would be ridiculed were he to propose him for the Senate.

 

[Jarhyn]

Wut? That slavery is bad is a recent (and primarly Western) construction.

So do you, or do you not, believe that people should be empowered over one another in a nonconsensual relationship of forced servitude and bondage?

This statement I quoted doesn't seem to imply that you do.

I do believe slavery is wrong. But I appreaciate that's because I live in the 21st Century after the 19th Century Western moral cursade to end it. But the Igbo particpation in slavery is beside the point.

No. The fact is people have always lived who thought it was wrong, almost certainly including many (but sadly not all) of.the slaves.

Do you appreciate this "moral crusade" to end it?

Do you appreciate that there is more work to cleaning up a mess than simply ceasing to do the thing that messed the place up, then? That you can't just stop pushing shit on the floor and not put it back?

The advantages people have today in society is as much by accident as anything else.

At any rate equating short term cultural supremacy to genetic supremacy (especially in light of the fact that everyone fucks everyone and there is no keeping such 'cats' in the genetic 'bag' as it were) is abhorrent.

 

[Oleg]

In the US as of 2022 right-wing extremist violence is the number one domestic terrorism threat

Yet there’s no FBI list. I mean, if there’s a klansman under every rock, where are they?

 

[Oleg]

The fact is people have always lived who thought it was wrong,

Who? Slavery is so prevalent in history - everywhere - that even the early Christians, who preached that God loved everyone, just accepted that slavery was part of creation. Anyway, we’ve gotten off topic.

 

[Politesse]

Yet there’s no FBI list. I mean, if there’s a klansman under every rock, where are they?

Are you trying to claim that the FBI does not investigate DVE incidents? If so. that is manifestly untrue. Though they had to cloak their work under a nest of buzzwords during the Trump era due to his sympathies, the FBI has never stopped protecting us from threats foreign and domestic.

 

[Jarhyn]

The fact is people have always lived who thought it was wrong,

Who? Slavery is so prevalent in history - everywhere - that even the early Christians, who preached that God loved everyone, just accepted that slavery was part of creation. Anyway, we’ve gotten off topic.

the slaves

It's almost as if your cut may have been a bit dishonest, seeing as how I answered your JAQing in the part of the quoted paragraph that you cut.