Breakdown In Civil Order

[Trausti]

I earnestly hope that old-school cold war type "this is my country!" confederate-loving white people stay in the fight for America. My only gripe is they need to quit worrying about the Black, Chinese, Arab and Mexican boogieman. America needed allies from the start and always will. Want to avoid a breakdown in civil order? Lead by example by consistently treating folks in a civil manner while kicking ass. Pussies with megaphones like Shawn Hannity & Don Lemon shouldn't have a job so as to stop coercing the woke & January 6th herp derps into thinking it's that easy.

Your police are out of control because you never gave a fuck what they do to people "not like you", so they are used to it and have recently forgotten who gave them that power. If you'd stop for a moment and looked you'd see that the same is happening in every branch of your government as well as what's coming next. But you won't. You're too focused on those "not like you" protesting, looting & occupying a grain of sand on the beach, and some other cold-war or Israel-related bullshit. I'll give you a hint, Rome like. Ignorance with a deadly sprinkle of no love for the constitution and what it represents. Black people (most of us) and all others are ready to fight for America once more. By your side this time or against you again.

End rant.

But the police are not out of control, the media is. It’s like the survey that showed many people believing that police shoot thousands of unarmed black men a year, when the actual number was 19. The media lies, and people die.

 

[Gospel]

I earnestly hope that old-school cold war type "this is my country!" confederate-loving white people stay in the fight for America. My only gripe is they need to quit worrying about the Black, Chinese, Arab and Mexican boogieman. America needed allies from the start and always will. Want to avoid a breakdown in civil order? Lead by example by consistently treating folks in a civil manner while kicking ass. Pussies with megaphones like Shawn Hannity & Don Lemon shouldn't have a job so as to stop coercing the woke & January 6th herp derps into thinking it's that easy.

Your police are out of control because you never gave a fuck what they do to people "not like you", so they are used to it and have recently forgotten who gave them that power. If you'd stop for a moment and looked you'd see that the same is happening in every branch of your government as well as what's coming next. But you won't. You're too focused on those "not like you" protesting, looting & occupying a grain of sand on the beach, and some other cold-war or Israel-related bullshit. I'll give you a hint, Rome like. Ignorance with a deadly sprinkle of no love for the constitution and what it represents. Black people (most of us) and all others are ready to fight for America once more. By your side this time or against you again.

End rant.

But the police are not out of control, the media is. It’s like the survey that showed many people believing that police shoot thousands of unarmed black men a year, when the actual number was 19. The media lies, and people die.

If you think your police remembers what the Constitution looks like you haven't been paying attention. This is not just a black people getting killed issue yo.

 

[KeepTalking]

Poverty doesn’t cause crime. Too many counterfactuals.

well it certainly doesn't cause white collar crime, but it most definitely is a huge contributing factor to street crime.
it's not just a direct one-to-one correlation of a lack of money, but that in combination with a variety of cultural pressures and survival mechanisms at play when living inside of a decadent system that you're denied access to.

it doesn't take more than 8 seconds of research to find that "street crime" is far more prevalent in socioeconomically depressed areas, and that offenders of "street crime" are overwhelmingly within the lower socioeconomic class.
this doesn't address violent crime, spree crime, or "joy" crime but that isn't within the scope of this specific discussion so isn't relevant.

Crime causes poverty. Come on, the must vulnerable to crime are the poor. They can least sustain property loss or physical harm. One burglary or armed robbery and they’re out. If you want to help the poor, fight crime. And most people - regardless of income - do not commit crime. My reading is that 1% of people commit most of the crime. Think of all the news reports where the perp has a long rap sheet. To use kid gloves on criminals because it fits some social justice flimflam only punishes the poor.

That would be great if you were actually reading, but as usual you are wrong, and rather than reading, apparently just decided to make shit up. Here is reality:

Just Facts: As Many Americans Have Criminal Records as College Diplomas

 

[Jarhyn]

Crime causes poverty. Come on, the must vulnerable to crime are the poor. They can least sustain property loss or physical harm. One burglary or armed robbery and they’re out. If you want to help the poor, fight crime. And most people - regardless of income - do not commit crime. My reading is that 1% of people commit most of the crime. Think of all the news reports where the perp has a long rap sheet. To use kid gloves on criminals because it fits some social justice flimflam only punishes the poor.

That would be great if you were actually reading, but as usual you are wrong, and rather than reading, apparently just decided to make shit up. Here is reality:

Just Facts: As Many Americans Have Criminal Records as College Diplomas

I have both committed misdemeanors and earned a diploma.

Honestly, few people I know who are any fun at all have not

 

[Emily Lake]

Where do you you think the homeless come from?

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

 

[ZiprHead]

Where do you you think the homeless come from?

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

That's been debunked numerous times here.

 

[prideandfall]

Where do you you think the homeless come from?

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

That's been debunked numerous times here.

numerous times, in multiple threads.
at the absolute highest projection drug addiction and/or mental illness constitute at most 15-20% of the homeless.

80% of homeless are just "didn't have enough money to keep their home" due to purely economic factors.

 

[TSwizzle]

Where do you you think the homeless come from?

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

That is certainly the case in Los Angeles county. And there is a substantial number of people for which being homeless is a lifestyle choice.

 

[KeepTalking]

Crime causes poverty. Come on, the must vulnerable to crime are the poor. They can least sustain property loss or physical harm. One burglary or armed robbery and they’re out. If you want to help the poor, fight crime. And most people - regardless of income - do not commit crime. My reading is that 1% of people commit most of the crime. Think of all the news reports where the perp has a long rap sheet. To use kid gloves on criminals because it fits some social justice flimflam only punishes the poor.

That would be great if you were actually reading, but as usual you are wrong, and rather than reading, apparently just decided to make shit up. Here is reality:

Just Facts: As Many Americans Have Criminal Records as College Diplomas

I have both committed misdemeanors and earned a diploma.

Honestly, few people I know who are any fun at all have not

I was on felony probation when I got my degree, there were definitely assorted misdemeanors in there as well...

 

[prideandfall]

That is certainly the case in Los Angeles county. And there is a substantial number of people for which being homeless is a lifestyle choice.

no it isn't, and no there aren't.

 

[Emily Lake]

Where do you you think the homeless come from?

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

That's been debunked numerous times here.

Not really. What has been showed is a different counting method.

Among temporarily homeless, poverty and lack of affordable housing are the biggest drivers. Among chronically homeless, it's mental illness and drug addiction, often both.

https://www.usich.gov/resources/uploads/asset_library/BkgrdPap_ChronicHomelessness.pdf

Episodic or transitional homelessness is much more due to economic insecurity than to mental health or substance abuse. But they're also much more likely to seek appropriate services and assistance, and to recover from their temporary homelessness. They have much lower impacts on the areas in which they are homeless and tend to avoid engaging in crimes and disruptive behaviors.

I think it's also worth noting that the prevalence of various causes aren't uniform. And it's naïve to assume that the predominant cause of homelessness in Seattle is due to poverty alone, without taking into consideration the effect of policy. Seattle has been refraining from prosecuting drug charges among the homeless for many years now, essentially taking the stance that drug addiction isn't a legal issue. This has led to a significant increase in the number of opioid and heroin addicts in Seattle. In addition, they opened up a "wet shelter" as a place where addicts and abusers could stay, which also makes the area more attractive to those with drug abuse problems.

Now, I don't necessarily think that tossing addicts in jail is a good solution. But I also don't think that just letting them be addicts out on the street is a good solution either - especially not for everyone else around them. And throwing mentally ill people in jail is just cruel, in my opinion.

What it really comes down to is addressing difference causes with different solutions. Providing low cost or temporarily free housing to homeless people would be a wonderful solution for episodic/transitional homelessness. But it's unlikely to be a solution for those who are mentally ill or addicts.

It might sound cruel, but I rather think that involuntary admission to substance abuse or mental health facilities is a better solution for the majority of the chronically homeless. Hold them until they're recovered sufficiently to move to a placement facility that can assist with finding them a job and a home. That comes with the recognition that some people will never be released.

 

[ZiprHead]

Where do you you think the homeless come from?

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

That is certainly the case in Los Angeles county. And there is a substantial number of people for which being homeless is a lifestyle choice.

Wrong again.

On top of high rents and a shortage of affordable housing, the Homeless Services Authority points to stagnant wages and systemic racism that affect housing, health care, justice and economic policies as major contributors to the crisis. The agency reports that black people make up only 8% of the total population but 34% of people experiencing homelessness in LA County.

Homelessness In Los Angeles County Rises Sharply

 

[ZiprHead]

That's been debunked numerous times here.

Not really. What has been showed is a different counting method.

Among temporarily homeless, poverty and lack of affordable housing are the biggest drivers. Among chronically homeless, it's mental illness and drug addiction, often both.

https://www.usich.gov/resources/uploads/asset_library/BkgrdPap_ChronicHomelessness.pdf

Episodic or transitional homelessness is much more due to economic insecurity than to mental health or substance abuse. But they're also much more likely to seek appropriate services and assistance, and to recover from their temporary homelessness. They have much lower impacts on the areas in which they are homeless and tend to avoid engaging in crimes and disruptive behaviors.

I think it's also worth noting that the prevalence of various causes aren't uniform. And it's naïve to assume that the predominant cause of homelessness in Seattle is due to poverty alone, without taking into consideration the effect of policy. Seattle has been refraining from prosecuting drug charges among the homeless for many years now, essentially taking the stance that drug addiction isn't a legal issue. This has led to a significant increase in the number of opioid and heroin addicts in Seattle. In addition, they opened up a "wet shelter" as a place where addicts and abusers could stay, which also makes the area more attractive to those with drug abuse problems.

Now, I don't necessarily think that tossing addicts in jail is a good solution. But I also don't think that just letting them be addicts out on the street is a good solution either - especially not for everyone else around them. And throwing mentally ill people in jail is just cruel, in my opinion.

What it really comes down to is addressing difference causes with different solutions. Providing low cost or temporarily free housing to homeless people would be a wonderful solution for episodic/transitional homelessness. But it's unlikely to be a solution for those who are mentally ill or addicts.

It might sound cruel, but I rather think that involuntary admission to substance abuse or mental health facilities is a better solution for the majority of the chronically homeless. Hold them until they're recovered sufficiently to move to a placement facility that can assist with finding them a job and a home. That comes with the recognition that some people will never be released.

From your own link.

Number of chronically homeless individuals ‐ Point in Time (on any given night)1
ƒ 110,917 people were experiencing chronic homelessness on a single night in January 2009.
ƒ This is 17% of all homeless people (sheltered and unsheltered) or 27% of homeless individuals counted
that night

You said...

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

Trying to cover up your wrongness isn't going to work.

 

[lpetrich]

prideandfall responded to Derec here.

it's perfectly within financial reason - the amount we spend on police militarization and the prison system is enough that it could be converted into free money for the poor to fund my notion.
what's the part that isn't feasible?

That's a common blind spot among the right wing. Anything that they don't like is automatically "government spending", and they refuse to accept that anything they do like is "government spending".

There was a self-styled centrist Democrat who claimed that hiring social workers was outlandishly expensive, as if hiring cops and judges and prison guards isn't.

definition of "behavior you don't like" considering you have a solid and consistent posting history of either being indifferent to or openly supporting criminal activity - you just pick and choose what 'crime' you decide gets your hackles up.

I think that many right-wingers seem to consider street crime some sort of rebellion against them. White-collar crime like tax evasion and fraud and embezzlement they seem completely OK with, except if politicians from the opposite political party do such things. So it's a class sort of thing, and it may reflect things that they themselves might be close to being guilty of, if not actually guilty of.

As to crime, there are criminals and there are criminals. There's a difference between pilfering to survive and running a scam that nets one a huge income.

 

[Emily Lake]

From your own link.

Number of chronically homeless individuals ‐ Point in Time (on any given night)1
ƒ 110,917 people were experiencing chronic homelessness on a single night in January 2009.
ƒ This is 17% of all homeless people (sheltered and unsheltered) or 27% of homeless individuals counted
that night

You said...

Largely from drug addiction and mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and PTSD.

Trying to cover up your wrongness isn't going to work.

Read further perhaps?

6. Causes of Chronic Homelessness and Contributing Factors

ƒ Very high rates of current or past mental illness (approximately 60%) and/or substance abuse disorders
(approximately 80%)

 

[ZiprHead]

From your own link.



You said...



Trying to cover up your wrongness isn't going to work.

Read further perhaps?

6. Causes of Chronic Homelessness and Contributing Factors

ƒ Very high rates of current or past mental illness (approximately 60%) and/or substance abuse disorders
(approximately 80%)

But the chronic is still only 17% of the homeless, not the "largely" as you said.

large·ly
/ˈlärjlē/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
to a great extent; on the whole; mostly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Poverty doesn’t cause crime. Too many counterfactuals.

well it certainly doesn't cause white collar crime, but it most definitely is a huge contributing factor to street crime.
it's not just a direct one-to-one correlation of a lack of money, but that in combination with a variety of cultural pressures and survival mechanisms at play when living inside of a decadent system that you're denied access to.

it doesn't take more than 8 seconds of research to find that "street crime" is far more prevalent in socioeconomically depressed areas, and that offenders of "street crime" are overwhelmingly within the lower socioeconomic class.
this doesn't address violent crime, spree crime, or "joy" crime but that isn't within the scope of this specific discussion so isn't relevant.

Nope. Street crime is a social thing, not an economic thing. Plenty of examples of places falling on hard times without turning to crime.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But the police are not out of control, the media is. It’s like the survey that showed many people believing that police shoot thousands of unarmed black men a year, when the actual number was 19. The media lies, and people die.

The police are out of control. It's not the shootings--you're right, the number of unarmed people shot is quite low (and many of those were shot while trying to take the cop's gun.) Rather, the problem is the George Floyds. That's what we need to fix, not the shootings.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That would be great if you were actually reading, but as usual you are wrong, and rather than reading, apparently just decided to make shit up. Here is reality:

Just Facts: As Many Americans Have Criminal Records as College Diplomas

That's not relevant and is deceptive garbage besides.

Note that they are talking about how many have been "arrested", but then complaining about “ever been arrested for a serious crime?” Note the major goalpost shift here! Furthermore, his assertion was about the percent of people behind most crime, not the percent who have ever been arrested.

The percent of people arrested will include a lot of people that we would not normally call "criminals". Things like minor in possession, civil disobedience at protests and the like.

Then in their argument against that question they cite figures for the effect on a job offer of having been convicted. Not of having been arrested. It also notes the effects are worse for blacks but makes no attempt to control for how many of what sort of convictions.

(Despite how bad their argument is I support the idea that employers should not be able to ask about arrests. Only convictions.)

 

[Gospel]

That's been debunked numerous times here.

Not really. What has been showed is a different counting method.

Among temporarily homeless, poverty and lack of affordable housing are the biggest drivers. Among chronically homeless, it's mental illness and drug addiction, often both.

https://www.usich.gov/resources/uploads/asset_library/BkgrdPap_ChronicHomelessness.pdf

Episodic or transitional homelessness is much more due to economic insecurity than to mental health or substance abuse. But they're also much more likely to seek appropriate services and assistance, and to recover from their temporary homelessness. They have much lower impacts on the areas in which they are homeless and tend to avoid engaging in crimes and disruptive behaviors.

I think it's also worth noting that the prevalence of various causes aren't uniform. And it's naïve to assume that the predominant cause of homelessness in Seattle is due to poverty alone, without taking into consideration the effect of policy. Seattle has been refraining from prosecuting drug charges among the homeless for many years now, essentially taking the stance that drug addiction isn't a legal issue. This has led to a significant increase in the number of opioid and heroin addicts in Seattle. In addition, they opened up a "wet shelter" as a place where addicts and abusers could stay, which also makes the area more attractive to those with drug abuse problems.

Now, I don't necessarily think that tossing addicts in jail is a good solution. But I also don't think that just letting them be addicts out on the street is a good solution either - especially not for everyone else around them. And throwing mentally ill people in jail is just cruel, in my opinion.

What it really comes down to is addressing difference causes with different solutions. Providing low cost or temporarily free housing to homeless people would be a wonderful solution for episodic/transitional homelessness. But it's unlikely to be a solution for those who are mentally ill or addicts.

It might sound cruel, but I rather think that involuntary admission to substance abuse or mental health facilities is a better solution for the majority of the chronically homeless. Hold them until they're recovered sufficiently to move to a placement facility that can assist with finding them a job and a home. That comes with the recognition that some people will never be released.

Every time I read one of your posts I feel the urge to hand you a rose. Public housing (I spent 4 years of my childhood at one in the Bronx) was one of the most dangerous places to live. I can't imagine it being any better condensing the mentally ill into such a place. I mean, you didn't explicitly say it, but it would indeed be public housing for the mentally ill.