Breakdown In Civil Order

[Elixir]

So of course that video inspires right wing boners, but they are totally wrong in their assumptions about both the incident and whatever laws and policies might apply, as usual.

You really know how to take the fun out of making shit up about "the libs".

 

[ZiprHead]

Thanks, AF.

 

[Angry Floof]

So of course that video inspires right wing boners, but they are totally wrong in their assumptions about both the incident and whatever laws and policies might apply, as usual.

You really know how to take the fun out of making shit up about "the libs".

Thanks, AF.

You're welcome. I also want to add that CA law does not require security guards to stand back and watch. Owners have the right to confront thieves and use force. So that's one right wing lie to extinguish. There may be details that prevent certain kinds of violence used to stop a thief, but no requirement to avoid all confrontation or whatever bogus shit right wingers like to spread.

 

[Politesse]

I realize of course that Derec, Tswizzle, etc have no intention of starting actual dialogues about crime and punishment when they share the latest viral videos, but I have a reading recommendation for anyone else curious about what goes on once the cameras stop rolling. It isn't actually true that California or any other state simply tolerates serial shoplifters. It is more than possible to prosecute shoplifting cases that are indicative of a permanent cycle or that result in significant loss. The question is how to address shoplifting, not whether to. Stores themselves don't want daily bloody shootouts on their front porch a la Republican fantasy-land, not in "red states" nor in "blue states". The best practice is to document the crime carefully, and with a cool head, begin an investigation into what happened and who is responsible:

Here's what happened after that viral S.F. Walgreens shoplifting video ended

As for whether there is truly a shoplifting spree in California, there of course is not; shoplifting incidents have been steadily decreasing in frequency relative to state population since 1989. We just have more people, and more stores, than an economically depressed state like Mississippi might have, so you're more likely to see exciting incidents like the one in the video occur here.

The New York Times fabricates a nonexistent shoplifting wave in San Francisco, then wrongly blames it on criminal justice reforms and the city’s supposed soft-on-crime image

Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?

Oh, paywall? It works for me.

Essentially, conservatives mounted a media frenzy based on the original Walgreens video, implying that a.) this was something that happened all the time in SF, rather than being the action of a singular organized shoplifting ring that had popped up, and b.) implying that the police had done nothing nor intended to do anything about it due to our supposedly lax laws. Neither is true, as the criminal who organized it was identified through the video, arrested, and is currently serving out his sentence.

 

[Politesse]

Thanks, AF.

You're welcome. I also want to add that CA law does not require security guards to stand back and watch. Owners have the right to confront thieves, but they are not required to by law. So that's one right wing lie to extinguish. There may be details that prevent certain kinds of violence used to stop a thief, but no requirement to avoid all confrontation or whatever bogus shit right wingers like to spread.

Well, it's true that you can't use disproportionate violence; unlike in some other states, you can wind up in severe trouble if you shoot an unarmed person dead as they're stealing a TV.

 

[Angry Floof]

Thanks, AF.

You're welcome. I also want to add that CA law does not require security guards to stand back and watch. Owners have the right to confront thieves, but they are not required to by law. So that's one right wing lie to extinguish. There may be details that prevent certain kinds of violence used to stop a thief, but no requirement to avoid all confrontation or whatever bogus shit right wingers like to spread.

Well, it's true that you can't use disproportionate violence; unlike in some other states, you can wind up in severe trouble if you shoot an unarmed person dead as they're stealing a TV.

Yeah, I mentioned that there were particulars as to what kinds of violence or aggressive actions they can take legally, but there's no law that prevents security guards from taking physical action.

What that guard did in the video was due to his company's training, not CA law. I don't know if he's a Walgreen's employee, but likely he works for a security company that hires people out, and their training and policies do dictate non-violent actions: presence, then command are the usual steps to deter a thief, and then observe and record if the theft continues.

Edit:
CA law allows shopkeepers to use force and to detain: https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/laws/shopkeepers-privilege/

 

[Elixir]

There's something particularly galling about letting a thief walk out with a TV.
You just KNOW, that that evening, at some point the thief will be watching security cam footage of himself stealing the TV, right there on the very TV he stole.
Probably better to shoot him and take your chances than to put up with that kind of humiliation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for whether there is truly a shoplifting spree in California, there of course is not; shoplifting incidents have been steadily decreasing in frequency relative to state population since 1989. We just have more people, and more stores, than an economically depressed state like Mississippi might have, so you're more likely to see exciting incidents like the one in the video occur here.

The New York Times fabricates a nonexistent shoplifting wave in San Francisco, then wrongly blames it on criminal justice reforms and the city’s supposed soft-on-crime image

Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

 

[Swammerdami]

Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?

I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

 

[lpetrich]

Two instances? To do what you want to do will require access to separate configuration files. That may be hard to do without something like installing another OS or another copy of one's current one, and then running that additional one with a virtualizer like Parallels.

That aside, I have four browsers: Firefox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera.

 

[bilby]

Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?

I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

The NoScript plugin allows you to selectively enable or disable Javascript by site.

IMO the internet is practically unusable without a good adblocker and NoScript as a minimum requirement.

 

[Jarhyn]

Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?

I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

Right click on tab, open in new window. Control-shift click on link may also do it. I know "new window" is also a right click context menu for the links themselves usually.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

I think you're missing my point.

Stores will only go to the effort of catching shoplifters if there is a reasonable chance of prosecution. Otherwise, what do they gain by trying? If loss prevention just means the person has to try elsewhere but suffers no consequences it's not economic to do so. Thus reports will decline.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

I think you're missing my point.

Stores will only go to the effort of catching shoplifters if there is a reasonable chance of prosecution. Otherwise, what do they gain by trying? If loss prevention just means the person has to try elsewhere but suffers no consequences it's not economic to do so. Thus reports will decline.

I took your point. I would even agree with you. I was just wondering if it was anything more than a notion you had.
Time was, in CA, if store security caught someone, they would send out a civil demand fine for a couple hundred bucks. I suppose that’s a thing of the past.

 

[KeepTalking]

Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

I think you're missing my point.

Stores will only go to the effort of catching shoplifters if there is a reasonable chance of prosecution. Otherwise, what do they gain by trying? If loss prevention just means the person has to try elsewhere but suffers no consequences it's not economic to do so. Thus reports will decline.

But that contradicts what actually happened in this case, so you are just speculating what will happen in other cases with no apparent basis for that speculation.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?

I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

Privacy Badger does this. You can set it up to allow or disallow things like JavaScript on a per site basis. It is an extension for browsers.

 

[lpetrich]

Texas man, 24, admits shooting at Minneapolis police station during riot | MPR News

A man who had been part of a far-right group that wants to foment a civil war admitted in federal court Thursday he traveled to Minneapolis from the San Antonio area to sow chaos after the police murder of George Floyd.

Ivan Harrison Hunter, 24, of Boerne, Texas, pleaded guilty to a single count of rioting. The charge carries a maximum prison term of five years.

...
Hunter admitted that he fired 13 rounds from an AK-47-style rifle into the 3rd precinct police station on May 28, 2020, as other rioters looted and set fire to the building after police evacuated. No one was struck by the gunfire.

After shooting at the building, Hunter was recorded on video high-fiving another person and yelling "Justice for Floyd!"

Far-Right Boogaloo Boi Admits Posing As BLM Activist While Shooting At Police Station During Floyd Protest - Joe.My.God.

Karen Valentine C on Twitter: "@JoeMyGod @SweGringo And another one https://t.co/nevNk66iS3" / Twitter - "Meet Branden Michael Wolfe the man charged with setting fire to the 3rd Precinct Police Station in Minneapolis, MN. And tried to blame it on BLM."

Suspect in officers' killings tied to Boogaloo group: prosecutors - Los Angeles Times

 

[thebeave]

The entire Louis Vitton store was cleaned out of merchandise. For those of you who don't keep up, LV is a high end store. This is not a case of people needing to clothe their children! Its starting to look like the people in charge in SF are getting fed up with this shit. Even Willie Brown aka Kamala Harris' ex-"boyfriend" is chiming in with his disgust at the situation. The cops took real action this time, and Chesea Boudin is in the midst of a recall campaign. Hopefully, change is coming....

 

[thebeave]

And earlier this week, just a few miles away...