Breakdown In Civil Order

[Jason Harvestdancer]

\(\)What American right-wing authoritarians say they want:
Freedom

What American right-wing authoritarians say they don't want:
Lawlessness

What American right-wing authoritarians don't understand:
Irony

Freedom is when people who look and behave like me say "fuck your rules, you can't tell me how to live!"

Lawlessness is when people who don't look or behave like me say "fuck your rules, you can't tell me how to live!"

It's the American way!

That post is simply staggering ... then clinging to a lampost while barfing into a gutter.

 

[Derec]

One way to deal with armed robbers.
Police: Customer killed would-be robber in shootout at DeKalb pizza place

By the way, this is not too far away from me, and I have been at this MOD Pizza on occasion.

 

[TSwizzle]

Brutal attack on a woman by "homeless" male in Seattle;

A homeless man with a 16-year violent criminal history has been charged with first-degree assault after he was caught on surveillance footage taking a 'full body swing' with a baseball bat and hitting a woman in the back of the head, leaving her bleeding with a fractured skull. Wantez Tulloss, 31, has been arrested 11 times going back to 2012 and was wanted by police in Washington for third degree theft. On Monday January 31, he was filmed taking a swing at Emma Shengnan Wang, who was named by prosecutors in court documents. He knocked Wang to the ground, hitting her on her skull and back, then fled, taking his bags with him.

Daily Mail

The video of the assault is sickening.

 

[Politesse]

Brutal attack on a woman by "homeless" male in Seattle;

A homeless man with a 16-year violent criminal history has been charged with first-degree assault after he was caught on surveillance footage taking a 'full body swing' with a baseball bat and hitting a woman in the back of the head, leaving her bleeding with a fractured skull. Wantez Tulloss, 31, has been arrested 11 times going back to 2012 and was wanted by police in Washington for third degree theft. On Monday January 31, he was filmed taking a swing at Emma Shengnan Wang, who was named by prosecutors in court documents. He knocked Wang to the ground, hitting her on her skull and back, then fled, taking his bags with him.

Daily Mail

The video of the assault is sickening.

He has been charged, and both should and will absolutely go to jail for his crime. Is someone saying otherwise?

You note that he has been arrested eleven times, with the most serious charge being petty theft, so it's also pretty hard to make the case that the police have been ignoring previous crimes. Clearly they have been nailing him for every infraction up until now. What is it you're saying should have been done for/to this man to prevent this crime? Life in prison for stealing a few hundred dollars of goods, "just in case"?

As always, Republicans have no workable solution to any social problem, they just clutch their pearls at the state of things and vaguely claim that they could do better, even if they can't explain exactly how. No one is buying it.

 

[bilby]

Brutal attack on a woman by "homeless" male in Seattle

What an odd sentence.

The scare quotes suggest that you think this person actually has got a home, and is pretending not to; And your description of him as "male" rather than as a "man" suggests that you are uncertain as to his species, whereas his actions are uniquely those of a Homo Sapiens.

Why anyone would need to watch a video of a violent assault is beyond me; I am quite capable of being sickened merely by the unnecessarily lurid description.

Regardless, your entire post (including the quote from the Daily Mail) is an utterly blatant attempt to spin the failure of your country's psychiatric and social welfare systems as a justification for further institutional cruelty (the exact opposite of the appropriate solution), and while it's possible that this is just kneejerk propagandising on your part, I suspect that the powers that be at the Mail are quite happy to deliberately promote further civil disorder in this way, as their audience is composed of people who clearly enjoy watching video of violent assaults, and a stable and caring society isn't likely to generate large volumes of such lucrative entertainment material.

The problem here isn't a lack of authoritarianism (sorry, it's called "rule of law" when it happens to people who you want to dehumanise); It's a lack of compassion, which you are demonstrating far more effectively than is acceptable for a person with pretentions to being civilised.

 

[Copernicus]

I think it's unfair to say that conservatives don't have solutions to the crime problem, although they may be reluctant to say them out loud in public. We've got the solution now, but we are just too wimpy to apply it more effectively. More people in jail. Perhaps round up the homeless and put them in concentration camps that aren't called "jail". Put those who can work into forced labor. Or let them just die in the streets and scoop up the bodies. Drug addicts can go ahead and drug themselves to death. Perhaps look the other way when the bad people get beaten up by cops and right wing do-gooder thugs. And they also have a solution that works with people who can't afford health care. Deny medical care until they go out and earn a wage like decent folks do. If they die because of their own laziness and irresponsibility, problem solved. It's called tough love. They'll thank us when they sober up, get healthy, and live decently like the rest of us.

 

[bilby]

I think it's unfair to say that conservatives don't have solutions to the crime problem, although they may be reluctant to say them out loud in public. We've got the solution now, but we are just too wimpy to apply it more effectively. More people in jail. Perhaps round up the homeless and put them in concentration camps that aren't called "jail". Put those who can work into forced labor. Or let them just die in the streets and scoop up the bodies. Drug addicts can go ahead and drug themselves to death. Perhaps look the other way when the bad people get beaten up by cops and right wing do-gooder thugs. And they also have a solution that works with people who can't afford health care. Deny medical care until they go out and earn a wage like decent folks do. If they die because of their own laziness and irresponsibility, problem solved. It's called tough love. They'll thank us when they sober up, get healthy, and live decently like the rest of us.

I am not entirely sure that it's reasonable to call these 'solutions'. They are 'strategies', but as they don't actually solve, or even mitigate, the problems they are supposed to address, they fall short of being 'solutions'.

 

[Politesse]

I think it's unfair to say that conservatives don't have solutions to the crime problem, although they may be reluctant to say them out loud in public. We've got the solution now, but we are just too wimpy to apply it more effectively. More people in jail. Perhaps round up the homeless and put them in concentration camps that aren't called "jail". Put those who can work into forced labor. Or let them just die in the streets and scoop up the bodies. Drug addicts can go ahead and drug themselves to death. Perhaps look the other way when the bad people get beaten up by cops and right wing do-gooder thugs. And they also have a solution that works with people who can't afford health care. Deny medical care until they go out and earn a wage like decent folks do. If they die because of their own laziness and irresponsibility, problem solved. It's called tough love. They'll thank us when they sober up, get healthy, and live decently like the rest of us.

By "solution" I meant "something that would meaningfully address the problem", which more jail sentences would obviously not do even if the average jail sentence were much longer than it actually is and even if we could afford to permanently jail half the country for minor crimes as we obviously cannot.

But aside from the practical limitations of such a problem, I fail to see how a solution which is too shameful to say out loud could ever be effectively implemented. If that's a serious policy proposal, they'd better get over their stage fright and actually propose it as public policy. A vastly complex national penal colony is not going to build and fund itself, they're going to have formulate a working plan and openly advocate for it before I'd call it any sort of solution.

 

[Jarhyn]

Brutal attack on a woman by "homeless" male in Seattle;

A homeless man with a 16-year violent criminal history has been charged with first-degree assault after he was caught on surveillance footage taking a 'full body swing' with a baseball bat and hitting a woman in the back of the head, leaving her bleeding with a fractured skull. Wantez Tulloss, 31, has been arrested 11 times going back to 2012 and was wanted by police in Washington for third degree theft. On Monday January 31, he was filmed taking a swing at Emma Shengnan Wang, who was named by prosecutors in court documents. He knocked Wang to the ground, hitting her on her skull and back, then fled, taking his bags with him.

Daily Mail

The video of the assault is sickening.

He has been charged, and both should and will absolutely go to jail for his crime. Is someone saying otherwise?

You note that he has been arrested eleven times, with the most serious charge being petty theft, so it's also pretty hard to make the case that the police have been ignoring previous crimes. Clearly they have been nailing him for every infraction up until now. What is it you're saying should have been done for/to this man to prevent this crime? Life in prison for stealing a few hundred dollars of goods, "just in case"?

As always, Republicans have no workable solution to any social problem, they just clutch their pearls at the state of things and vaguely claim that they could do better, even if they can't explain exactly how. No one is buying it.

Hey, Jean Valjean is based on an observation of a real personality type.

France ran on slavery of their own people, but "just the criminals of course."

So too does America and it sickens me.

Their "workable solution" is for-profit prison slavery.

 

[Copernicus]

By "solution" I meant "something that would meaningfully address the problem", which more jail sentences would obviously not do even if the average jail sentence were much longer than it actually is and even if we could afford to permanently jail half the country for minor crimes as we obviously cannot.

But aside from the practical limitations of such a problem, I fail to see how a solution which is too shameful to say out loud could ever be effectively implemented. If that's a serious policy proposal, they'd better get over their stage fright and actually propose it as public policy. A vastly complex national penal colony is not going to build and fund itself, they're going to have formulate a working plan and openly advocate for it before I'd call it any sort of solution.

I agree. I was just being sarcastic, because I do not think most conservatives believe that a real solution is possible. All they can do is take measures to keep themselves safe--guns! police! soldiers!-- and push for measures that deter bad people from behaving badly. It's a "solution" for them personally, not for society in general. If life can be made miserable enough for those behaving badly, then maybe more will choose to behave better. Beatings will stop when morale improves! And liberals are people who favor public policies that make them less safe and steal their money to do it.

 

[TSwizzle]

Venice Beach, California used to be a big tourist attraction. Now it is a place to avoid, I never take visitors down there;

A Venice Beach community organization has warned Los Angeles officials that they're liable for millions in payouts if the remaining homeless encampments aren't cleared out, months after the city removed about 200 people from the boardwalk. The Venice Stakeholders Association sent a letter to several city offices last week explaining that LA could face a number of expensive lawsuits if they fail to protect the safety of nearby residents. Those who live in the area have complained about the garbage littering the boardwalk and the unchecked fires started by people camping outside. Last January, a fire at a homeless tent near the beach spread to a vacant two-story building and completely destroyed it. It took 116 firefighters two hours to put it out.

Daily Mail

 

[TSwizzle]

What a way to run a city;

A self-proclaimed' old-school junkie' who moved from Texas to San Francisco because 'it's f*****g easy' to be homeless there claims he's being paid by the city government to be homeless on the streets, getting $620 in cash per month and hundreds of food stamps while he sells narcan and enjoys Amazon Prime and Netflix on his phone. ‘This right now is literally by choice, literally by choice. If we’re going to be realistic, they pay you to be homeless here,' James, a homeless man with face tattoos who has been living in San Francisco since June, told Michael Shellenberger, author of San Fransicko, a book about how the city's progressive leaders are accused of worsening homelessness, inequality and crime. James said it only took one phone call to receive government assistance, including hundreds in cash and food stamps worth approximately $100, and notes the 'free money' is motivation to remain homeless.

Daily Mail

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Brutal attack on a woman by "homeless" male in Seattle;

A homeless man with a 16-year violent criminal history has been charged with first-degree assault after he was caught on surveillance footage taking a 'full body swing' with a baseball bat and hitting a woman in the back of the head, leaving her bleeding with a fractured skull. Wantez Tulloss, 31, has been arrested 11 times going back to 2012 and was wanted by police in Washington for third degree theft. On Monday January 31, he was filmed taking a swing at Emma Shengnan Wang, who was named by prosecutors in court documents. He knocked Wang to the ground, hitting her on her skull and back, then fled, taking his bags with him.

Daily Mail

The video of the assault is sickening.

He has been charged, and both should and will absolutely go to jail for his crime. Is someone saying otherwise?

You note that he has been arrested eleven times, with the most serious charge being petty theft, so it's also pretty hard to make the case that the police have been ignoring previous crimes. Clearly they have been nailing him for every infraction up until now. What is it you're saying should have been done for/to this man to prevent this crime? Life in prison for stealing a few hundred dollars of goods, "just in case"?

As always, Republicans have no workable solution to any social problem, they just clutch their pearls at the state of things and vaguely claim that they could do better, even if they can't explain exactly how. No one is buying it.

I would be very surprised if they got him for every offense he committed, but it sounds like this is a major escalation of what was previously minor crime. Barring additional evidence I don't see that the system did badly on this.

 

[Trausti]

LOL

MSN

www.msn.com

”But at the same time, you cannot have a culture where people are just, at random, robbing and stealing.”

Welcome to common sense, Al!

 

[Derec]

Los Angeles assistant DA rips George Gascon for 'failing' kids by not prosecuting DUIs as new recall underway

Jonathan Hatami, a deputy district attorney for Los Angeles County, said in doing so, Gascon has "failed" juveniles, who could get the message that there are no consequences for their actions, will never reach court-ordered alcohol programs and could then get behind the wheel again to kill themselves or others.
"You're basically telling a 16- or 17-year-old if you drink and drive, you're just not going to get in trouble," Hatami said in a recent on-camera interview with KCBS-TV. "George Gascon says he wants to protect kids and he cares about kids. Well, if George Gascon really wants to protect kids, if he really wants to do that then sometimes what you have to do is protect kids from themselves. And as a parent, I know that and all parents know that. And George Gascon has essentially failed in this."

I know Fox News is hated here, but the original CBS station that ran the interview with the deputy DA

In any case, DUIs are serious and dangerous offenses and it is fucked up Garcon is refusing to prosecute teenagers for drinking and driving. Drunk driving is especially dangerous for teens when their impulse control is underdeveloped anyway and they also tend to have less driving experience than their older peers.

Bu that's not all.

Gascon has been widely criticized for his controversial juvenile diversion program launched in December. In a memo to staff, he directed prosecutors not to pursue charges against minors for a wide range of offenses, including sexual battery, burglary, vehicle theft, assaults or robberies, barring they did not result in serious injury or were committed while in commission of a firearm, The Times reported.

Those are some rather serious offenses that you can get away with if you are a minor. I mean sexual battery and other assaults? Burglary and robbery? Grand theft auto? Those need to be prosecuted regardless of the age of the offender. 15 and 16 year olds should not be getting away with all that.

 

[Emily Lake]

The problem here isn't a lack of authoritarianism (sorry, it's called "rule of law" when it happens to people who you want to dehumanise); It's a lack of compassion, which you are demonstrating far more effectively than is acceptable for a person with pretentions to being civilised.

Is that a lack of compassion for the violent attacker or for the victim of his assault?

 

[Trausti]

The problem here isn't a lack of authoritarianism (sorry, it's called "rule of law" when it happens to people who you want to dehumanise); It's a lack of compassion, which you are demonstrating far more effectively than is acceptable for a person with pretentions to being civilised.

Is that a lack of compassion for the violent attacker or for the victim of his assault?

This does seem to be the policy difference. What’s best for the criminals vs. what’s best for the victim / public safety.

 

[Copernicus]

The problem here isn't a lack of authoritarianism (sorry, it's called "rule of law" when it happens to people who you want to dehumanise); It's a lack of compassion, which you are demonstrating far more effectively than is acceptable for a person with pretentions to being civilised.

Is that a lack of compassion for the violent attacker or for the victim of his assault?

This does seem to be the policy difference. What’s best for the criminals vs. what’s best for the victim / public safety.

No, you are thinking of when they stopped using torture as a method of punishment. It is a policy difference about how to deal with homeless and mentally disturbed people who commit violent crimes. If all we do is lock them up after they commit such crimes, then we aren't doing anything to solve the problem. There is a never-ending supply of mentally disturbed people, some of whom are inevitably going to commit violent crimes (although most do not). Bilby was just commenting to TSwizzle (not Emily) about a case of a homeless man who committed a crime (and not just the one of being homeless).

 

[lpetrich]

I'm not impressed by right-wingers bragging about how compassionate they are. Because they show contempt and hostility and sneer at anything other than that.

They often talk about "personal responsibility", meaning that everything bad that one suffers is one's fault. They also say that one should not call oneself a victim. They sometimes acknowledge that some things are not one's fault, but they believe that one should meekly and quietly suffer them, because "life isn't fair", something that they pride themselves on believing.

Let's see what this says about crime. It means that crime victims are really crime enablers, and that they should take responsibility for enabling the crimes they suffer and not call themselves victims. But if there are crimes that are not our fault, we should meekly and quietly accept that those crimes are part of the unfairness of life.

About military and police forces, a right-wing argument against them is that they enable laziness in self-protection, and that they are financed by governments stealing from self-protectors to finance the protection of those who are too lazy to protect themselves.

 

[lpetrich]

Despite some right-wingers' screeching about compassion for crime victims, I notice a lack of interest in restitution and Restorative Justice

Restorative justice repairs the harms caused by crime. When victims, offenders and community members meet to decide how to do that, the results can be transformational.

It emphasizes accountability, making amends, and — if they are interested — facilitated meetings between victims, offenders, and other persons.

This is the sort of thing that makes me suspect that their real feelings about crime victims are very different.

I've long thought that many right-wingers consider crime a kind of rebellion, to be ruthlessly suppressed.