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Breakdown In Civil Order

Patooka

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aaa
Yet another “homeless” person attacking at random. Two people literally butchered in the parking lot of Kohl’s. Fourth biggest economy in the world.
Meh, I'm more worried about the constant hammer attacks that happen everyday. TSwizzle, clearly the US is a fucking terrifying place. It's aa miracle you're still alive. You guys live in the real Thunderdome, apparently.
 

Colonel Sanders

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Cool story but that is probably no comfort to the people of Vancouver that are victims of violent crimes which are increasing.
Neither are histrionic posts and bullshit "documentaries" on the internet. In fact, scaremongering is basically the opposite of comforting.

So you don’t a problem? Ok.
I don't a problem?

I guess you mean "you don't see a problem"?

If so, my answer is that I see a lot of problems. What I don't see - especially coming from the types of people who use a lot of square quotes and emotional appeals in place of sound reason or even facts - are meaningful solutions to those problems.
This^ so much.

Lots and lots of complaining but when pressed for any solution, there is never any forthcoming. When offered solutions, the answer is invariably "We Can't" or something equivalent to it, and usually the sentiment, "Why should I have to pay for that?!?!?" comes attached.
 

Copernicus

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Yet another “homeless” person attacking at random. Two people literally butchered in the parking lot of Kohl’s. Fourth biggest economy in the world.
Meh, I'm more worried about the constant hammer attacks that happen everyday. TSwizzle, clearly the US is a fucking terrifying place. It's aa miracle you're still alive. You guys live in the real Thunderdome, apparently.

You completely missed the point, which was that no such murders ever happen in states controlled by Republicans. It's quite amazing when you consider that fact, which is reported all the time on Fox News but never taken into account by Democrats, who created the homeless problem by opening up the borders. You don't have such problems in Australia, even though you have socialized medicine.
 

lpetrich

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AOC retweeted:
Matthew Chapman on Twitter: "That's a huge cop-out. The fact is, shootings in NYC have been basically flat for 2 years, but mentions of shootings in local news spiked from 100/mo in Jan 2021 to over 800/mo now.
You cannot look at this chart and tell me that didn't influence public perception of safety. (pic link)" / Twitter

Claiming that news stories about shootings had a factor of 4 jump in recent months even as the numbers of shootings stayed flat.

Is New York City More Dangerous Than Rural America? - Bloomberg - "Rising homicide rates don’t tell the whole story. When you dig deeper into data on deaths, you'll find the more urban your surroundings, the less danger you face."

Chris Sprigman on Twitter: "People don't understand ..." / Twitter
People don't understand how much safer NYC is than other American cities, and indeed, compared also with rural America.

You are less likely to be murdered in NYC than most other places in America. But that's not even the full picture of how much safer NYC is, because when you look not just at murders, but also at car crashes--a very large cause of death in America--NYC's relative safety becomes even clearer.

And if you count not just murders and car crashes, but all external causes (drownings, lawnmower accidents, etc.), it becomes downright scary to live anywhere else but NYC.

Oh, and 3 of NYC's 5 boros are among the 10 safest counties in America.

What drives the completely wrong yet widespread and bizarrely persistent view that NYC is dangerous? Part of it is racism. But part of it is a broader rejection and loathing among many Americans of what NYC stands for. I was born in Queens but spend most of my childhood in an exurb of NYC, Suffolk County. The growth of that place was fueled by a post-WWII exodus of white people from NYC. White people who left the city on the heels of the post-WWII migration of Black Americans from the South. Those people cut themselves off from the life of NYC, and stranded themselves in ticky-tacky boxes built in what used to be potato fields that developers transformed into a soul-crushing landscape of house-driveway-lawn-house-driveway-lawn-house-driveway-etc etc etc etc. To justify this act of self-harm, NYC's suburbanites constructed an elaborate moral narrative about crime in NYC. One that, for many years now, has had little to do with actual crime in NYC, but rather with the suburbanite's attempt to rationalize suburban life, such as it is.

People are meant to live in cities. It's better for them. And safer.
Meant? Humanity lived in tiny communities for nearly all of its existence, tiny compared to what agriculture made possible.


Then some people noting that car accidents seem much more tolerable than crime. That reminds me of Isaac Asimov's short story "Sally" about self-driving cars and how manual driving was outlawed as needlessly dangerous.

Adrien Delessert on Twitter: "@CJSprigman The longer I’ve lived in NYC, the more I’ve come to feel it’s insane we tolerate 40k+ deaths and 2+ million injuries a year to car crashes, and just continue to build cities & neighborhoods where you can’t do *anything* without getting into a car." / Twitter
and
Jaime Caldwell on Twitter: "@dlssrt @CJSprigman Ive said for a long time that living in NYC, I don’t have to worry about my kids texting while driving or drinking and driving because we have zero need for owning a car. It’s definitely a perk to raising children here." / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Proud to represent one of the safest places in America. The right wing can stay mad and spiraling in their cognitive dissonance.
We’ll be out here continuing our efforts to house, employ, and expand healthcare to all people - making everyone safer in the process. 🏠👩🏽‍🔧⛑️" / Twitter
 

ZiprHead

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The first systematic, in-depth look at murder and suicide in the United States shows that personal conflicts are the major factor in such deaths, as opposed to random violence or other crime.

Guns are the most commonly used weapons in both murders and suicides, according to the analysis of data from 2007 released on Thursday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“The pattern that stands out the most is we see a lot of intimate partner violence, mental health problems and substance abuse,” said the CDC’s Debra Karch, who led the study.

While police and politicians may stress crime-fighting to try to lower murder rates, the study suggests that equipping people to better handle conflict may be more effective.
 

Loren Pechtel

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The first systematic, in-depth look at murder and suicide in the United States shows that personal conflicts are the major factor in such deaths, as opposed to random violence or other crime.

Guns are the most commonly used weapons in both murders and suicides, according to the analysis of data from 2007 released on Thursday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“The pattern that stands out the most is we see a lot of intimate partner violence, mental health problems and substance abuse,” said the CDC’s Debra Karch, who led the study.

While police and politicians may stress crime-fighting to try to lower murder rates, the study suggests that equipping people to better handle conflict may be more effective.
Any "research" that groups homicide and suicide in trying to explore why is worthless. The driving forces are very different.

Suicide is driven by physical and mental health. Murder is driven by conflict.

There are a lot more suicides than homicides so when you lump them you see the causes of suicide driving the data even though they have very little to do with the causes of homicide.
 

lpetrich

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Matthew Gertz on Twitter: "Great news everyone, "America's Crime Crisis" (trademark Fox News) is over!
All it took was Election Day eliminating the perceived political benefit of talking about crime all the time, go figure. (links)" / Twitter

Fox News had about 100 segments per week in early September, and it went up to nearly 200 just before the election. Then it dropped to a little over 70.

Noting Fox’s coverage of violent crime has dropped after the midterms | Media Matters for America
Fox was open in its strategy of using violent crime as a political cudgel against Democrats throughout the midterms. Driven in part by Fox host Tucker Carlson's calls for Republicans to run on the issue, the network engaged in a monthslong campaign to tie Democrats and the Biden administration to violent crime, often by highlighting specific incidents in “Democratic cities” and blaming progressive criminal justice reform for individual violent crimes.

...
Fox’s breathless political coverage of violent crime during the midterm period often ignored key context, such as the reality that crime statistics from red states were higher than those of blue states and that Democrats across the country at multiple levels of government made efforts to fund law enforcement and curtail violent crime. Instead, these segments often focused on attacking progressive district attorneys and candidates across the country.

Voting matters 11/28-12/6 🗳⚖️. on Twitter: "@MattGertz @mluckovichajc local news stations all crime all the time. Even though we're in ATL, if there's no crime they post "a woman beloved in her community was shot in her beauty salon during an attempted robbery" in another state. When they do it on TW I just post in replies NOT ATL lol. 1/" / Twitter
then
Voting matters 11/28-12/6 🗳⚖️. on Twitter: "@MattGertz @mluckovichajc They also won’t report good news, actually deleted the one tweet & took of their website homepage. Also “Student debt relief, some say it’s unfair” seg of ppl loving it, one guy obvs prompted says “well I guess some could think it’s unfair?” W/ GA runkff, keeping up the facades. (pic link)" / Twitter
 

steve_bank

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It is not hyperbole and political fear mongering. At least here in western Washington.

Last week a 14 year old student shot a kid after a disute in the school, and a 15 year old accomplice was found trying to get the gun away on a bus.

This is not a rare exception.

It us chos. Students who do not know their ass from a hole in the ground say they don't want armed police in schools. They want mental health couselors and unarmed security trained in anti racism and de-escalation.

SRO school resource officers were ended in the area after the Floyd killing. One parent on camera claimed police in schools bully kids and create violence. Others now want SROs back.

During the riots against police there were claims police in neighborhoods incite crime. Get rid of police and let communities pilce themselves. Anarchy.

Programs some want would amount to one mental health professional per 200 students

If nothing has changed for the worse in our cultural foundation, IOW kids, why is there a growing demand for large scale mental health sesorces in schools? Nationally from the reporting.
 

ZiprHead

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Last week a 14 year old student shot a kid after a disute in the school, and a 15 year old accomplice was found trying to get the gun away on a bus.

This is not a rare exception.
This is not a rare exception anywhere.
 

bilby

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Last week a 14 year old student shot a kid after a disute in the school, and a 15 year old accomplice was found trying to get the gun away on a bus.

This is not a rare exception.
This is not a rare exception anywhere.
Sure it is. It's a rare exception everywhere, other than the USA, and other third world shit-holes with more guns than sense.
 

Copernicus

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It is not hyperbole and political fear mongering. At least here in western Washington.

Last week a 14 year old student shot a kid after a disute in the school, and a 15 year old accomplice was found trying to get the gun away on a bus.

This is not a rare exception.

...

First of all, you need to provide a link to the story that you are talking about:

14-year-old boy held in fatal Seattle school shooting


Then you need to take note of the fact that this incident was rare enough to make the national news. It is not a common occurrence for a 14-year-old to kill someone with a gun, but it is far more common than in other countries. And we know why. Second Amendment fundamentalists in the US captured the Supreme Court, rendering the patchwork of ineffective gun control laws even more ineffective. Not that this kid owned that gun legally. It's because the mountain of guns in private hands nationally all but guarantees that irresponsible people prone to violence will be able to get their hands on guns that were originally bought and owned legally. It is not police-hating liberal leftists that created this problem, but the idiotic "defund the police" movement sure did not help in Seattle. Nevertheless, this 14-year-old was arrested within an hour of the shooting.

The teenager is being investigated for possible first-degree murder, but it is hard to see how that will end up being the charge. His 15-year-old accomplice will also be charged. The article goes on to state:

According to the K-12 School Shooting Database, an independent, nonpartisan research project, there have been 272 gun-related incidents at U.S. schools this year, including cases where a gun is brandished, shot or a bullet hits school property. Those include the May 24 shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, that killed the 19 children and two adults.

So, getting back to Steve's claim about this not being a "rare exception", it apparently is rare even in the United States. However, it does make for good clickbait and political fearmongering, which I think is exactly why this thread ended up in the "Political Discussions" forum with the title "Breakdown in Civil Order". Bringing the nutty "defund the police" issue into the discussion of this story was a red herring that had nothing to do with this particular incident. The 272 reported cases of gun-related incidents in US schools did not take place in Seattle.
 

Politesse

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I don't understand how "refunding the police" would do anything to change a situation in which the accused perpetrator has already been arrested, and will almost certainly be charged unless his parents are very wealthy indeed. What other role would the police have played than the one they did? Is the argument that they should have arrived in a fancier car to arrest the kid? Leather seats? Golden cuffs? I guess they could have played to form and murdered the kid instead of arresting him, but that could have been done without any increase in budget. Indeed, a bullet through the chest is much cheaper than a trial (and it does not take many bullets through the chest to end the life of a child, their organs are quite small), even for the police department. So lack of funding is irrelevant to the case.

So many of the "horrifying incidents" reported in this thread end exactly the same way, with the accused either executed in the street or behind bars. Conservative "solutions" to crime are already the norm in this country. Police encounters are more deadly, arrests more frequent, and incarceration greatly extended over what we had two generations ago. And yet, I see zero evidence that increasing the lethality of police encounters and/or the length of sentencing for petty crimes should the accused survive to face trial has reduced the frequency of horrific, eye-catching headlines in any way.
 
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steve_bank

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The argument which I agree with is that an armed officer in known to be in the school can be a deterrence to guns in schools.

In Wa the police are banned from puruing suects in catd ec xcept for a vey linited nuber of cases. The reult, when police pull up with lights flashinglights the car speeds away.

Around here refund police is cumming from regular citizens across neighborhoods. Crime and street assaults have appeared in neighborhoods that never expeinced crime before.

Normally quite neighborhoods have experienced drive by shootihgs and gunfights between gangs in cars. Bystnders killed.

From re[orting and what I see frt hand the only way to say it is a brekdown in civil order.

So,ebody in my building was assaulted in the building by an intruder.

The progressives in government have been paralyzed unable to make hard decusins. A homelss camp was next to a school for yeras and despite problems with kids, needles, and intrusion into the school nobody would order the camp cleared. It was finally done.

The mantra is 'homeless have rights'. A right to squat anywhere regardless of consequences. It is changing slowly. Tacoma is banning camps in some areas.

There s no political will to force homeless into housing and treatment. Chaos continues.

I have watched a new homeless camp grow across the street from our front door. It doe not worry me all that much, there are vulnerbale popel in my building afriad to go in the halls or on the street.

We were told by polce that die to staffing shortages if we call about an intruder it may take hours to respond. We don't call police anymore.

Street people wit till somebody drives out of the patkong garage abd run in before te door closes. They will push their way past weker peole when they open the front door. They will call people on the front door inercom until they find somebody not to aware and get let in.

It is not just our building. Homeless camps become fronts for organized crime. I walked into our community room and disrupted somebody trying to steal one of computers.
 

Politesse

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The argument which I agree with is that an armed officer in known to be in the school can be a deterrence to guns in schools.
There is no evidence that this is true.

In Wa the police are banned from puruing suects in catd ec xcept for a vey linited nuber of cases. The reult, when police pull up with lights flashinglights the car speeds away.
Are you claiming that this school shooting could have been prevented by a random traffic stop, or is this off topic?

Normally quite neighborhoods have experienced drive by shootihgs and gunfights between gangs in cars. Bystnders killed.
Do you disagree with the police themselves that this was a targeted murder, or is this off topic?

Crime and street assaults have appeared in neighborhoods that never expeinced crime before.
Did this incident occur in one of those neighborhoods, or is this off topic?

The mantra is 'homeless have rights'. A right to squat anywhere regardless of consequences. It is changing slowly. Tacoma is banning camps in some areas.
Are you claiming that this school shooting could have been prevented by incresased persecution of the homeless, or is this off topic?

So,ebody in my building was assaulted in the building by an intruder.
Were they assaulted by this particular 14 year old, or is this off topic?
 

Toni

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The horror.

What kind of cruel and heartless monster would defend people in need?

Maybe Australia is different.

But there is a huge difference between helping someone in need and feeding someone's illness.
Tom

Seattle and King county spend about $100k per homeless person. What interest is there in actually solving the problem with money like that?
Sounds like $100K/ reasons to me.
 

atrib

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The argument which I agree with is that an armed officer in known to be in the school can be a deterrence to guns in schools.
There is no evidence that this is true.

In Wa the police are banned from puruing suects in catd ec xcept for a vey linited nuber of cases. The reult, when police pull up with lights flashinglights the car speeds away.
Are you claiming that this school shooting could have been prevented by a random traffic stop, or is this off topic?

Normally quite neighborhoods have experienced drive by shootihgs and gunfights between gangs in cars. Bystnders killed.
Do you disagree with the police themselves that this was a targeted murder, or is this off topic?

Crime and street assaults have appeared in neighborhoods that never expeinced crime before.
Did this incident occur in one of those neighborhoods, or is this off topic?

The mantra is 'homeless have rights'. A right to squat anywhere regardless of consequences. It is changing slowly. Tacoma is banning camps in some areas.
Are you claiming that this school shooting could have been prevented by incresased persecution of the homeless, or is this off topic?

So,ebody in my building was assaulted in the building by an intruder.
Were they assaulted by this particular 14 year old, or is this off topic?
Steve doesn't let the trivial details get in the way of the story he wants to tell us.
 

lpetrich

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The Fall of a Progressive Prosecutor | The New Republic - "Critics of former San Francisco district attorney Chesa Boudin claimed that unseating him would make the city safer. Did it work?"
Peter: They weren’t so much throwing around statistics as they were just making unsupported claims. There was a general theme that San Francisco had sort of entered a period of lawlessness; the police were no longer arresting people because they knew Boudin would not file charges.

Laura: So the idea is that people were committing crimes and he wasn’t prosecuting them. Were they saying he was doing this with violent crimes, or were they talking about petty shoplifting? What kind of stories were they invoking?

Peter: You saw it in both spheres. There was a version of this claim that was more general and didn’t really get into the specifics. There’s a version that pointed to theft, and I think another version that pointed to, for example, an increase in attacks against the AAPI community, anti-Asian violence generally, and suggested that crime was rising and Boudin was failing to prosecute it. Both those claims are demonstrably false.

Alex: As you say, a lot of the claims that were made were anecdotal or based on sensational viral videos, more on vibe than fact.
Then some research into actual numbers.
What I found was that this double-digit percentage increase in homicides, for example, that he wrote about was an increase in the number of homicides from 10 to 11. He’s right, it’s 10 percent, but it’s dramatically misleading.
Also, that seems close to what one would expect from statistical fluctuations. As a general rule, if the average is number N, then the standard deviation of that number is sqrt(N).

CB wasn't as horrible as his detractors portrayed him as.
Peter: He understood the root causes of crime and the ineffectiveness of these status quo responses and created different responses. Though he charged at basically the same rate. He charged—in fact, I think he had a higher charging rate for sexual assault, for rape specifically, than any D.A. in that office since 2011. His charging rates for other crimes, thefts and things of that sort, were either equal to, just below, or just higher than the D.A. who came before him.

Laura: And tell us about his record of going after white-collar crime.

Peter: Another piece, I think, is a focus on economic crimes and a focus on workers’ rights: the sorts of things that push people in San Francisco onto the streets and cause them to become my clients. So there I’m referring to, for example, his lawsuits against DoorDash for misclassifying its workers as contract. He did the same thing with a company called Handy.

Laura: How widespread is that kind of crime? How many victims are we talking about?

Peter: This is a stunning statistic, but wage theft in the United States, the dollar value is about $50 billion annually, which is far more than all of the other types of theft, larceny, burglary, robbery, combined.

Laura: Right, and yet in the last couple of years, whenever you’ve read something in a major newspaper lamenting the state of San Francisco, it isn’t people walking the streets and saying, “Oh, so many people must be having their wages stolen from them by employers.” They’re talking about this perception of crime happening on the street. They’re not interested in the crimes that they can’t see or that don’t directly affect them.

Peter Calloway: Yeah, I think that’s right. I think also the media bears some responsibility for the crimes that are most front of mind.
GOP Billionaires Bankroll Effort to Recall SF’s District Attorney - Truthout - almost like they are afraid of being caught for something.

Back to the interview.
One other kind of core feature of Boudin as prosecutor that I think is really important is his insistence on holding police accountable for the harms that they create. Between that and the focus on economic crimes, I think the reaction to his tenure is somewhat unsurprising, given the way that we’ve seen those same interests react to challenges to their power and to their privilege throughout the course of history.

...
Laura: So what you have is a prosecutor who is tough on crime. He’s tough on corporations. He’s tough on police who commit crime. But he is portrayed as being soft on crime because a lot of his opponents didn’t want those kinds of crimes investigated.

Peter: Yeah, I mean, when people say tough on crime, they mean this very specific thing—and it’s not the thing that they claim to mean.
 

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Then about CB's successor Brooke Jenkins. Has the crime wave ended?
Gil: In short, no. The disorder, the open-air drug dealing that largely drove the Boudin recall, have continued unabated. We’ve seen property crimes, drug crimes, and even murders continue to take place—surprise, surprise—in a big urban city with a lot of inequality, a lot of poverty, and a lot of problems.
What has she done?
Gil: Mostly it’s consisted of very bold declarations of harsh new policies. She says she’s going to prosecute more juveniles as adults. She’s restarting the drug war, promising to arrest and jail both drug users and drug dealers, which is probably not going to be too successful because the jail is at capacity because it’s completely understaffed. She’s also making it unclear as to whether she’s going to prosecute police officers who are accused of abuse; she’s got to keep the police union in her corner. They were the chief antagonist to her predecessor.

...
When you get to the end of the tough-on-crime rainbow, you find that reform is necessary because prisons and jails are creating more crime. She seems to be recreating what we already did in the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s and promising it’ll be different this time, at a time when we’re actually at a period where crime is much much lower now than it was in the ’80s
Why this perception of a super crime wave?
Gil: Yeah, this was really a case of mass hysteria, as far as I could tell. It felt sometimes like being in an experiment, where you’re seeing whether this sense of panic can drive Democratic voters to behave almost as Republicans and to disregard the facts and the statistics for a general feeling that things were unsafe no matter what the facts said.

...
Laura: We want to talk about some of what’s driving those perceptions of rising crime regardless. You wrote this great piece for the San Francisco Examiner titled “Cocaine buffets and meth poop. Meet Twitter’s rising anti–San Francisco influencers.” Can you talk us through some of the ways this kind of information is spreading?

Gil: Sure. I think there’s a concerted effort to push this narrative, both in terms of public people, the police unions, Republicans—there are a few here in San Francisco pushing the crime narrative, blaming Boudin—but you also had a lot of sock-puppet accounts, some bots and troll networks that are identified all pushing this idea of crime. Added to that you have television news, which is a parasite that feeds on crime and disorder and pushes it to people every day as if it’s the only thing happening in town.
Why did Chesa Boudin lose?
Gil: The thing about Boudin that also helped with his demise is he’s a bit of an outsider here. He beat a progressive Democrat who was part of what you call the city family. He also has this radical background that was easy to take shots at. His parents were in the Weather Underground. He worked for Hugo Chávez down in Venezuela as a translator. It was very easy to make him into this leftist monster who was destroying the town.
The governor didn't come to his aid, and the mayor didn't either, seeming like she chose him as a scapegoat.

What do they say now? “Now there’s no simple answer to crime. It’s very complex and complicated, and we need time to figure it out.”
Although, in a recent L.A. Times profile, Brooke Jenkins said something to the effect of, “We can’t prosecute our way out of this problem”—which sounded a lot like Chesa Boudin!
 

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What next?
Gil: My prediction is that she will be Chesa Boudin, and she’ll realize that this is the situation you have.

... again, there’s no path forward that doesn’t lead you back to the very reforms that got Chesa Boudin crucified in San Francisco. By the way, he didn’t even do those reforms. That was Jerry Brown. That was Gavin Newsom.
Boudinism without CB himself.
Another legacy of Chesa Boudin’s recall: Don’t be too honest. Kind of lie. It’s working for Jenkins. She’s lying her way to victory today.
Then about the financiers of the recall, like Silicon Valley financier David Sacks.
The recall campaign raised $7 million, more than double the amount Boudin’s supporters raised.
The interview continued, with discussions of the political involvements of Silicon Valley billionaires like Peter Thiel and DS.
This wasn’t like a group of people who were drawing attention to like, “Oh, there’s like rape on campus. This is something we should do something about.” They were the backlash to people who were making those arguments.

...
Alex: On the one hand, anytime you look into the history of reaction and the history of the right in this country, it’s dispiriting how reliably it can be traced back to the hangups of college Republicans on elite college campuses. We just can’t get away from that.

Jacob: It’s crazy. From Buckley to Thiel.

Alex: It’s just a story that repeats itself over and over again.
That's William F. Buckley, founder of right-wing magazine National Review. In 1951, he wrote a book, "God and Man at Yale", where he grumbled at how secular and left-wing that university supposedly was.

Then about how these self-styled Randroid libertarians turn into law-and-order authoritarians.
... But I think some of these people have also realized it doesn’t take necessarily a lot of money to buy an election. ...

...
Alex: You get rich enough, your attitude just becomes, “I can pay to make this thing that I don’t like go away.”

Jacob: Yeah.
 

lpetrich

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Reducing crime is easy—and we actually know how to do it - "Spoiler: It’s not by praying harder"
Study after study over the course of a half-century or more has demonstrated the ways in which positive, active engagement with vulnerable populations can significantly reduce crime.

Let’s start with the 1970s. Professor of psychology David Olds identified a large sample of mostly white, poor, young, and unmarried pregnant women in the rural town of Elmira, New York. This group of disadvantaged mothers was divided into two groups: experimental and control. The mothers in the former group received regular in-home visitations by registered nurses during their pregnancies and also after their babies were born, for two years. During these visits, the nurses provided parenting tips, helped the moms access social services, answered questions about health, medicine, diet, nutrition, discipline, and so forth. The mothers in the control group did not experience any of these supportive visitations.

The result?

Compared to those in the control group, the single moms who received the nurse visits were far less likely to become pregnant again, much more likely to become employed, and much less likely to abuse or neglect their kids. Over a decade later, their kids were much less likely to be using alcohol or drugs and—most importantly—were much less likely to have ever been arrested.
One of many such studies.
It’s pretty easy to understand how much of this works: when people live in poverty and do not have jobs or good job prospects, when vocational training is scarce, when they can’t get a good education, when they can’t afford decent housing, when they don’t have access to health care, when they feel a deep sense of hopelessness — all of this breeds despair, humiliation, and shame. And this in turn creates unstable homes wracked with frustration, anger, and violence. Add drugs and alcohol into the mix, and things only gets worse. Such households are more likely to produce children who – experiencing insecurity, abuse, and neglect — are much more likely to become violent and criminally-involved as they grow up. It is thus no coincidence that nearly all of the states with the highest murder rates – such as Louisiana, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas – also tend to have the highest poverty rates.

To reduce violent crime, reduce poverty and inequality by providing health care, quality education, job training, affordable housing, and a variety of needed social services for all. Do this, and violent crime will plummet.

No prayers needed, no gods required.
 

lpetrich

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I like this comment, from "smrnda":
Having done some work with prison literacy, I got to meet a number of actual criminals. Many had simply grown up in social environments where engaging in crime is fairly common, and where the cost/benefit analysis makes engaging in crime or joining a gang a somewhat appealing financial decision. Once these people have records, getting normal jobs becomes harder, and the appeal of crime increases rather than the other way around.

I think the other side of this is, if we admit that criminals are not 'bad people who made bad decisions' but are products of their environment, then those of us who aren't criminals can no longer regard that as a sign of moral superiority. I'm fine with that. But I think some people have egos that get in the way.

Just for the heck of it, some numbers compared. 2016 to 2020 rates of:
 Motor vehicle fatality rate in U.S. by year - 11.59, 11.40, 11.18, 10.99, 11.67 per 10^5
U.S. Murder/Homicide Rate 1990-2022 | MacroTrends - 5.39, 5.32, 5.01, 5.07, 6.52 per 10^5

So one is twice is likely to die in a car accident than to be murdered.
 

repoman

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I like this comment on the video:
I had a neighbor about 15 years ago who owned a security company. He was making a mint primarily installing and monitoring camera systems; he had no armed guard services at all. That's not enough in 2022 thanks to the GOP with no limits on guns, and the DEMs with no limits on criminals.
Less guns and severe and long sentences for criminals would be better I guess.

A practical comment:
It's not a good idea to be posing in the open alone. This needs to be two guards minimum because if shot from behind you lose an expensive 500-2000 dollar rifle. And guns double in value when on the black market. They should stay inside and do patrols in pairs. They shouldn't be stationary outside where they're sitting ducks
 

repoman

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This is very cynical of me, but I wonder if Amazon and Costco (need a membership card to get in) are secretly in glee about shoplifters and smash & grabs happening in many regular retail stores. Would they even bankroll the campaigns of soft on crime D.A.s?
 

Loren Pechtel

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This is very cynical of me, but I wonder if Amazon and Costco (need a membership card to get in) are secretly in glee about shoplifters and smash & grabs happening in many regular retail stores. Would they even bankroll the campaigns of soft on crime D.A.s?
For a rather marginal version of "need". The local Costco rarely asks for my card at entry. (Checkout is another matter--the first step to getting rung up is scanning your card.) It's also just one person with a clicker, there's nothing to stop a smash and grab other than that there's not a lot of expensive stuff to run off with. Also, you can enter the exit without showing a card (membership is accessed via that door) and realistically nothing prevents you from walking back through an unused checkout lane.
 

lpetrich

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That Jacobi Hospital program that AOC likes to talk about? It's an example of  Violence interruption
Violence interruption is a community-based approach to reducing communal and interpersonal violence that treats violence as a public health problem.[1][2] This type of model was created by the organization Cure Violence Global. Individuals providing violence interruption services are known as violence interrupters.[3] Techniques used include mediation and measures to address underlying causes of violence such as poverty.[citation needed] These mediations are usually between rival gangs. The violence interrupters are people who have lived experience and usually come from the neighborhoods they work in. Maintaining respect and trust from the community is of the utmost importance to foster strong relationships with the individuals who are being served so that they maintain their credibility as messengers. They also help these individuals access services that can address the underlying root causes of an individual's actions. For example, job training and job placement.[4] The initiatives use a public health model to prevent violence and crime by treating them as diseases.[2] As of 2018 initiatives were in place in Washington DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Baltimore and other US cities, as well as in London and Glasgow.[2][3]

Violence interruption is distinct from law enforcement as an approach to ending violence, although the two approaches can sometimes be regarded as complementary to one another.[2] The component that makes this strategy so successful is the community partner agencies and the interrupters themselves.[5]

The Health Alliance for Violence Intervention (HAVI) is a network of hospital-based violence intervention programs that cultivate relationships between the hospitals and community social service agencies to provide resources and services to victims of gun violence.[6] Oakland California implemented a hospital-based violence intervention program to conduct research and assess the effectiveness of this model of violence intervention. The participants were predominantly Black and Latino youth between the ages of 12 to 20 years old. Youth that had received an intervention at the hospital were less likely to be arrested for any offenses by 70% and less likely to continue committing crimes by 60%.[7]

During the COVID-19 pandemic, violence interrupters helped encourage social distancing, hand washing, and other measures to limit viral spread and helped distribute food and supplies in the areas they served.[8][9][10]
Square-bracketed numbers are to references in the text.

 Cure Violence
Cure Violence is a Violence interruption program for anti-violence. It aims to stop the spread of violence in communities by using the methods and strategies associated with public health and disease control: detecting and interrupting conflicts, identifying and treating the highest risk individuals, and changing social norms.

Originally developed under the name "CeaseFire" in 2000, U.S. epidemiologist Gary Slutkin launched the model in West Garfield, the most violent community in Chicago at the time. During CeaseFire's first year, shootings dropped by 67 percent.[1]
 

lpetrich

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How Does Treating Gun Violence As A Public Health Crisis Work? One Bronx Program Offers A Potential Flagship Model - Gothamist
Now entering its seventh year, the Jacobi program known as Stand Up to Violence is the first of its kind in the state to use a hospital-based approach that treats violence like a disease. There are roughly 18 gun violence prevention programs scattered across the city, several of which have shown promising results. But those behind the Jacobi initiative say its unique model and outcomes stand out among them: Between 2014 to 2018, gun violence in the areas it serves dropped by 45% compared to the four years prior before Stand Up To Violence was initiated, according to Dr. Noè Romo, a pediatrician who serves as the program's medical director.

Additionally, he noted that among the more than 2,000 patients admitted into Jacobi for either a gunshot wound, stabbing, or assault over the last seven years, the rate of re-injury is 59% lower than prior to the program.
Noting from the middle of last year,
The Recount on Twitter: "Rep. @AOC: "If we want to reduce the number of people in our jails, the answer is to stop building more of them ... It's to support communities, not throw them away." (vid link)" / Twitter
and
The Recount on Twitter: "Rep. @AOC: "Our complete gutting of support in our mental health system both in this city and across the country is absolutely correlated with both homelessness and incidents of violent crime." (vid link)" / Twitter
AOC is with Rep. Jamaal Bowman and Sen. Chuck Schumer

Back to the article.
Stand Up To Violence is based on a Cure Violence model that was created in Chicago in 1995 and relies on community members known as credible messengers. They are often former gang members, or as Miranda describes, a person who "has lived through what these young people have lived through."

...
But unlike other violence interrupter programs, Stand Up To Violence is based in a hospital. That allows outreach by the credible messengers to begin at a critical moment—when a gunshot victim is admitted to the emergency room and the clock begins on a potential retaliation. Outreach workers immediately try to get a sense of what led to the shooting and then attempt to mediate the dispute at both an individual and community level. They do not involve law enforcement.

Congress Approves AOC's Funding Request for Jacobi Hospital's Cure Violence Program, Among Others - Norwood News
Congress has approved nine out of ten funding requests for community projects put forward by Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (NY-14), the congresswoman’s office confirmed on July 30. The various requests for the 2022 fiscal year included additional funding for Jacobi Hospital’s anti gun-violence initiative which Ocasio-Cortez, Rep. Jamaal Bowman, and U.S. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer had highlighted as a priority in early July, as reported at the time by Norwood News.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Costco (need a membership card to get in)

You need a membership card to go in to a store?

I would never go to a store like that.
Tom
Costco is $60/yr to get in the door (although there are a few exceptions where they are legally required to sell to anyone), they have basically nothing in the way of sales and do not take coupons and they are well known for having big packages (I have referred to mountain lions as "Costco cats", everyone laughed and understood), good regular prices and a lack of variety. For me, the savings on glasses more than pays for the membership.
 

ZiprHead

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Costco (need a membership card to get in)

You need a membership card to go in to a store?

I would never go to a store like that.
Tom
Costco is $60/yr to get in the door (although there are a few exceptions where they are legally required to sell to anyone), they have basically nothing in the way of sales and do not take coupons and they are well known for having big packages (I have referred to mountain lions as "Costco cats", everyone laughed and understood), good regular prices and a lack of variety. For me, the savings on glasses more than pays for the membership.
I understand they also sell to small businesses at wholesale, i.e. no sales tax. Is that true?
 

Loren Pechtel

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Costco (need a membership card to get in)

You need a membership card to go in to a store?

I would never go to a store like that.
Tom
Costco is $60/yr to get in the door (although there are a few exceptions where they are legally required to sell to anyone), they have basically nothing in the way of sales and do not take coupons and they are well known for having big packages (I have referred to mountain lions as "Costco cats", everyone laughed and understood), good regular prices and a lack of variety. For me, the savings on glasses more than pays for the membership.
I understand they also sell to small businesses at wholesale, i.e. no sales tax. Is that true?
I believe so--but remember that when the small business turns around and sells it they charge sales tax. It's just about avoiding double taxation.
 

steve_bank

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
 

Jarhyn

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
So maybe support initiatives to home them which are not doomed to fail your "drugs're bad mmkay" and "But they have ta work for it" moniker.

Take the poison out of the pill and the medicine will start to work.
 

Gospel

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Costco (need a membership card to get in)

You need a membership card to go in to a store?

I would never go to a store like that.
Tom
Costco is $60/yr to get in the door (although there are a few exceptions where they are legally required to sell to anyone), they have basically nothing in the way of sales and do not take coupons and they are well known for having big packages (I have referred to mountain lions as "Costco cats", everyone laughed and understood), good regular prices and a lack of variety. For me, the savings on glasses more than pays for the membership.
I understand they also sell to small businesses at wholesale, i.e. no sales tax. Is that true?
I believe so--but remember that when the small business turns around and sells it they charge sales tax. It's just about avoiding double taxation.

Correct. The small business is issued a resale certificate from the state and are not charged tax on purchases. The only time the small business doesn't charge tax at point of sale is if their customer presents a tax exemption certificate.
 

steve_bank

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
So maybe support initiatives to home them which are not doomed to fail your "drugs're bad mmkay" and "But they have ta work for it" moniker.

Take the poison out of the pill and the medicine will start to work.
It is not just homeless. Teen armed violent robbery is up.

As to homeless no one can be compelled to get off the streets. There are many who want to stay home;ess. They have a tent and get food from charities. They mange to get enough money for alcohol and drugs. Taking housing means no drugs or alcohol.

Apparently healthy young people panhandle and live in camps rather than getting a job.

Thhere is a camp across the street. There is another one i a nearby park between the park fence and the highway. They have a generator.

People drive up, get out of a car, go in the camp, and come right back out. Or somebody meets them on the steet and the drug exchnage is made openly through the car window. We have all seen it in my building.

Lasr week somebody truesd to break the lock on our frnt door. They will wait outside the garage door. When somebody drives out they get in before the door closes. A car was stolen and multiple car break ins. Somebody left the door opener in their car and the theif drove out.

It is not just our building and neighborhood.
 

bilby

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I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.
Ah, so you are personally responsible for the problem you're bemoaning.

You can see a problem, but won't report it as requested by the police. You kids these days just don't seem to understand civic responsibility.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.
Ah, so you are personally responsible for the problem you're bemoaning.

You can see a problem, but won't report it as requested by the police. You kids these days just don't seem to understand civic responsibility.
Seattle is suffering from an increase of crime, larger than other parts of the country. I think Steve is experiencing it outside his front door. His indifference on reporting is an effect of a sense of powerlessness, not apathy. I'd be hesitant to mock it.
 

ZiprHead

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
Oh noes... Two gunshots, apparently no one injured.

A guy around the corner from me was shot and killed in the middle of the afternoon. I heard the gun shots. The shooter probably emptied the entire clip.

You're not special, Steve.
 

Oleg

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
Oh noes... Two gunshots, apparently no one injured.

A guy around the corner from me was shot and killed in the middle of the afternoon. I heard the gun shots. The shooter probably emptied the entire clip.

You're not special, Steve.
Yeah, it really is arrogant of Steve to be upset by an uptick in crime in his neighborhood.
 

TSwizzle

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The new mayor of Los Angeles has declared Los Angeles "homeless" problem an emergency!!!!!111!!11!!!!!11!

In her first official act since being sworn into office, Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass declared a state of emergency on homelessness Monday. Bass said the declaration shows the people of Los Angeles that "we are united and serious about the city's crisis of homelessness."
The effort will help city agencies cut through red tape, she said, as she plans soon to unveil proposals to clear homeless encampments and get people living on the streets into shelter and housing. "I will not accept a homeless crisis that afflicts more than 40,000 Angelenos and affects every one of us. It is a humanitarian crisis that takes the life of five people every day," the mayor said just prior to officially signing the declaration. "It must stop, and change starts now...There will be no holding back on my watch." Later this week, Bass will unveil her plan, called Inside Safe, to address encampments. She has also pledged to clear the most problematic encampments in her first 100 days relying on master leasing apartments and hotel rooms for temporary shelters.

News

WTF was former Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti actually doing? Answers on a postage stamp please.

I have noticed a couple of encampments have been disbanded, the long line of broken down RVs and old cars on Highland Ave, just at the Hollywood Bowl have been removed plus a public space further into Hollywood has been cleared and fenced off to keep the "homeless" out.
 
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steve_bank

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
Oh noes... Two gunshots, apparently no one injured.

A guy around the corner from me was shot and killed in the middle of the afternoon. I heard the gun shots. The shooter probably emptied the entire clip.

You're not special, Steve.
You have no idea what you are making light of. Didn't say I was special.

In the 70s I was driving a cab at night in Hartford Ct. I had a window shot out. One place I lived in was called smack city by a local paper. The corner of Sisson and Farmington Ave. A guy harrased my girlfriend. I went to his apartment with a knife up my sleve.

You want to talk shit?

Our building was hit in a drive by. Someone in my building was assaulted by someone who got in. There have been multiple murders around where I live. Somebody in my buiding pulled two young guys off an ao old Asian woman they were assaulting.

I live on the edhge of Chinatown. Asians in the district are afraid due to the rise in assaults and hate crimes.
 
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ZiprHead

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I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
Oh noes... Two gunshots, apparently no one injured.

A guy around the corner from me was shot and killed in the middle of the afternoon. I heard the gun shots. The shooter probably emptied the entire clip.

You're not special, Steve.
Yeah, it really is arrogant of Steve to be upset by an uptick in crime in his neighborhood.
While he is unwilling to do anything about it.
 

ZiprHead

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Don't be a dick.
I just heard two gunshots, probably from the homeless camp across the street.

I used to call it in to 911 and the police say they want it reported.

I don't bother anymore.

When I moved in I walked around the neigborhoos at anytime at night. Not anymore.
Oh noes... Two gunshots, apparently no one injured.

A guy around the corner from me was shot and killed in the middle of the afternoon. I heard the gun shots. The shooter probably emptied the entire clip.

You're not special, Steve.
You have no idea what you are making light of. Didn't say I was special.
Sure sounds to me like your trying to win the victimhood race.
In the 70s I was driving a cab at night in Hartford Ct. I had a window shot out. One place I lived in was called smack city by a local paper. The corner of Sisson and Farmington Ave.
So... But it's worse now?
A guy harrased my girlfriend. I went to his apartment with a knife up my sleve.
So you were part of the crime problem.
Our building was hit in a drive by. Someone in my building was assaulted by someone who got in. There have been multiple murders around where I live. Somebody in my buiding pulled two young guys off an ao old Asian woman they were assaulting.

I live on the edhge of Chinatown. Asians in the district are afraid due to the rise in assaults and hate crimes.
You need one of these:knight:, in white.
 

repoman

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Golly, this was rough. I would somewhat lean to overkill.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...spect-inside-sw-houston-taco-shop-police-say/

Incompetent, but still dangerous, armed robber in a Houston restaurant is killed by a mag-dump (9 bullets) from a customer. Was the customer former military, police or cartel?

Would it be a very good or very bad idea to show all people on trial or convicted of armed robbery this type of video?

Either scared straight or scared into shooting first and getting the money later.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Golly, this was rough. I would somewhat lean to overkill.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...spect-inside-sw-houston-taco-shop-police-say/

Incompetent, but still dangerous, armed robber in a Houston restaurant is killed by a mag-dump (9 bullets) from a customer. Was the customer former military, police or cartel?

Would it be a very good or very bad idea to show all people on trial or convicted of armed robbery this type of video?

Either scared straight or scared into shooting first and getting the money later.
The video doesn't actually show the shooting so it's not apparent how fast the guy went down. The various authorities who have seen the video don't seem to have a problem with it so I doubt it's a case of pouring rounds into a body on the ground. Looking at what we see before the video freezes his rounds aren't going into any spot that will cause an instant stop.
 

repoman

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Golly, this was rough. I would somewhat lean to overkill.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...spect-inside-sw-houston-taco-shop-police-say/

Incompetent, but still dangerous, armed robber in a Houston restaurant is killed by a mag-dump (9 bullets) from a customer. Was the customer former military, police or cartel?

Would it be a very good or very bad idea to show all people on trial or convicted of armed robbery this type of video?

Either scared straight or scared into shooting first and getting the money later.
The video doesn't actually show the shooting so it's not apparent how fast the guy went down. The various authorities who have seen the video don't seem to have a problem with it so I doubt it's a case of pouring rounds into a body on the ground. Looking at what we see before the video freezes his rounds aren't going into any spot that will cause an instant stop.

Well, I saw the whole video on the Kiwifarms thread "Post Videos of People Dying". Not sure where else to find it, but it should be readily accessible on any news website a after a clear warning that you will see a death.

It was four shots in a row and the robber was basically down for the count. Slight pause before shots 5, 6, 7 and 8 (say 1.5 times longer between these shots than shots 1-4).
Then he bends down grabs the gun and AFTER that fires shot 9 in the robber's head or upper chest.


Are you gonna be above it all and NOT watch the video and still pontificate about it? That would be blowhard central, my dude.
 

repoman

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Or you can watch this video where at 1:50 Robby Soave describes the last shot happening after the gun has a been grabbed by the patron.

 
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