Charlie Kirk shot at (shot?) in Utah

[blastula]

Yeah it's real.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/31/conservatives-disinformation-paul-pelosi-assault-00064208

 

[Colonel Sanders]

I hear you, but do you agree it was wrong that MLK and others were struck down violently?

It’s a matter of scale IMHO.
Melissa and Mark didn’t get this kind of attention. No half mast flags, no wall to wall tv coverage, no presidential feigned sadness. Melissa was an ELECTED FUCKING OFFICIAL who was stalked and murdered in her home, along with her innocent husband. Does anyone know who Yvette Hoffman is?
The asymmetry is vast. Open season on elected Dems, but don’t go picking off any loudmouthed unelected trumpsuckers or there will be hell (for all of us) to pay.

I get what you’re saying about asymmetry, and maybe that’s a fair conversation. But before we go there, do you agree or disagree that it was wrong for Kirk to be killed over his opinions, just like it was wrong for Melissa, MLK, or anyone else?

That's a fair question. However, more is needed.

1. Legally speaking, it was indisputably wrong. From A crime to Z crime that took place until arrest, he was wrong.

2. Morally, it's not as clear cut because taking another life is not always wrong. The great majority of the time it is wrong. There are almost always better ways to act. But silencing a bad-faith voice whose known and clearly stated goal is to take more of our rights away, establish an American theocracy, and advocate apathy and even encourage murder for the sake of his disgusting principles; I don't know. My reason is not sympathy, but because we don't know if in the end it will have made any difference. It's the classic if you could kill Hitler question.

3. Practicality: much as what I wrote immediately above, we don't know the impact, if any this will have. Like everything else now, it will likely fade pretty quickly from the news cycle. It does give American fascism a martyr, but they already have as many martyrs as they wish to manufacture anyway.

3A: If this was a rational act by a rational person, is it the first shot in a burgeoning movement that's realizing that peaceful protests accomplish nothing and believe that concrete action is needed to save our democracy, or is it a radicalized leftist who lost rational thought and misguidedly lashed out over paranoia? Etc. I think that its practical effect will be minimal.

I could go on and on, but the way I see it, it amounts to a small sliver of of satisfaction in a sea of despair; a moment where the fascists saw measurable backlash against the policies they promote. I know what the response to that sentence will be, so I'll wait for it.

Overall the question(s) of right and wrong are a matter of degree and on-the-ground results. We'll just have to wait and see.

I see your point about morality, but that’s exactly the problem: morality depends on who’s defining it. The people behind MLK’s assassination no doubt thought they had their own ‘moral’ reasons, just as anyone who resorts to violence does. If morality is the standard, then what makes one person’s justification more valid than another’s? That’s why it’s better to have a universal fact we can all agree on: political violence in a democratic society is unacceptable, no matter who the target is. Once that line blurs, every assassin claims the mantle of moral righteousness, and democracy itself becomes hostage to whoever has the gun.

I mostly agree. I'm sure someone can think of some examples, but as of the moment I don't recall any assassination that was later determined to be unquestionably good. Obviously we can't see into a parallel universe where the given assassination didn't occur in order to evaluate the differences, but history shows it's not a very good way to change things and can make things far, far worse, or at least greatly aggravate already tense circumstances (see the killing of Archduke Ferdinand).

OTOH, there is no question in my mind that people of Kirk's ilk hate democracy and are actively trying to rid America of it. Election results have been called false, there was a serious and somewhat organized attempt to overthrow the government. If not outright, threats of violence and violence itself has been perpetrated against political opponents. The most powerful person in the U.S. has threatened to jail his political opponents and has stationed federal troops in cities whose voters overwhelmingly disapprove of him.

Roe was overturned and Obergefell is on the way. What's next? We're not potentially on a slipper slope, we're actually sliding down it.

The point is that there are concrete, indisputable events that have occurred and laws that have been passed diminishing our rights. At what point is the citizenry supposed to act in order to stop it?

I acknowledge that I take great glee in the Event of the Week, but I don't deny it's a very complex and dangerous issue. In other words, I have no good answers.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Read the whole thing. Wut an asshole.

What strikes me about this is that they want to ban free speech to ... do what? "Protect" the good name of a fascist bobblehead? To quash things said in poor taste?

Meanwhile, this administration and its supporters have made no bones about despising entire states like California, Illinois, and New York. They cheer when wildfires destroy our homes and businesses. They publicly wish for natural disasters to kill us. They shit on our founding document and all the case law that has interpreted it for the overall good and advancement. They hate the civil rights movement.

But dunking on Kirk's demise is too much for them?

Side Note: the world's biggest stock exchange is in New York. The world's biggest futures exchange is in Chicago. California is the 5th largest economy in the world. The point is that not only has violence been threatened, the three most important economic engines of the country are in danger of being seriously harmed. There is no aspect of this nation's health that is not at stake.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

We

I bet the right wing idiots will be calling for the Helldivers games to be banned too.

Maybe the morality police fringe. The Party leadership is way too heavily invested in microchips to seriously want any video game to be banned.

Well the fringe can still send death threats to the developers and needlessly traumatize people too.

For sure, and it is despicable. That is weirdly the cost of doing business in the modern gaming industry though. In 2014, we all decided that video games are political statements, and things have gone steadily downhill from there.

Yeah the latest Kirby Air Riders is a fucking Wokefest.

Is EA's PGA Golf woke? I hope not. I spend the better part of a year playing Elden Ring. I hope I wasn't radicalized by it. One of my characters was female, so apparently the danger of being a fairy was indeed manifested.

The pearl-clutching, pants shitting over video games has existed since I was dropping quarters in Space Invaders, yet for some reason Satan or even his most minor of minions ever saw fit to visit me. Frankly, that rejection has shaped an important part of me and necessitated overuse of SSRIs.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

link

Robinson grew up in Washington, Utah, and earned a scholarship to attend Utah State University after a strong academic record in high school, but dropped out after just one semester, according to public records, social media and a university statement.

Voter registration records show that Robinson is registered to vote unaffiliated with any party, although he is also listed as an “inactive” voter, meaning he hadn’t voted in at least the most recent two general elections.

Didn't vote in 2020 or 2024?

 

[marc]

Seeing people saying that the memes inscribed on the casing are popular among 'groypers' which are fans of Nick Fuentes. So it is fascists killing fascists. Apparently Fuentes and Kirk didn't like each other.

 

[RVonse]

Up until this shooting I honestly did not even know who Charlie Kirk was.

Yet everyone on this forum seems to think I am the big MAGA licking hard right conspiracy nut.

Go figure.

 

[Toni]

I am really sick of seeing all the news on Kirk. The guy was a christian nationalist, a white nationalist, an anti-gay asswipe. Denying climate change, a 2020 election denier and antivax troglite. That a piece of shit and flags are at half mast over this.

I do not disagree but I am still appalled at yet another act of gun violence —and the reactions of many right wingers and ignoring the fact that three students were murdered which, I suppose is the price we pay for free access to deadly weapons. Obviously the school shooter was mentally ill but whoever killed Kirk was a democratic antifa scum.

 

[Politesse]

And I wouldn't hold that against him. I personally don't watch snuff films. I don't need to see any more people die than absolutely necessary (family (natural causes) and rare circumstance).

I would normally agree, though in this specific case, were I president, I think I would stay for the full briefing.

And he's a news hound. Surely he has seen at least the discretion shot edit by now.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Straight from the “Oh, no!!! Anyway …” school of mourning:

 

[Toni]

I am really sick of seeing all the news on Kirk. The guy was a christian nationalist, a white nationalist, an anti-gay asswipe. Denying climate change, a 2020 election denier and antivax troglite. That a piece of shit and flags are at half mast over this.

I didn’t agree with or like the guy either, and I agree the coverage is completely overblown. If we were close by, I’d give you a fist bump for this post. But to me, this isn’t about who he was, it’s about someone being killed over their opinion. If we’re okay with Kirk getting shot, then we’ve got no right to complain when the same thing happens to someone we value.

It’s strange that this happened so close to 9/11, an event that profoundly changed America and the world. The rhetoric I’m seeing, both online and in person, is disturbing, people celebrating this man’s death as if they don’t have their own figures they admire who could one day be in the same danger. I can’t shake the feeling that this event marks a shift, and we haven’t yet seen the full aftermath.

I’ve heard people argue that if Kirk hadn’t been divisive, annoying, or bigoted, this wouldn’t have happened, that somehow it’s his own fault. But American history is filled with examples of people who preached peace and unity, only to be struck down violently.

I feel like I woke up in an alternative universe.

The fact is, we have no idea why Kirk was killed. Given that the person they arrested as the shooter appears to be conservative/christian and—no surprise: white and male—my best guess is that he was doing it for shits and giggles and mostly fame.

 

[Toni]

There is a long history of violent reposes on campus in California to conservative speakers.

Last year A Christian group was given a permit to put on a concert in a park in the Seattle LGBT neighborhood. There were questions by progressives as to how the permit was issued, the Christian group is counter to 'Seattle's values'. There were potshots.

Recreant they had an event away form the LGBT community and our mayor said there has to be equal rights for all, finally.

I think the right has a point, it is more the left that suppresses free repression.

While I agree that the left can want to limit the speech of those on the far-right, I will remind you that the alt-right were shooting cases of Bud Light because a transgender person was a spokesperson in a commercial. That is an actual reaction of violence, borderline terrorism.

AFAIK, the left has steadfastly upheld the rights of KKK members and other fascists to free speech including parades, etc.

It is the right who trembles at the word gay.

 

[Elixir]

MSNBC big red banner
LAWMAKERS, CITIZENS FEAR FOR THEIR SAFETY IN THE WAKE OF CHARLIE KIRK KILLING

It’s infinitely reassuring that when Vance Boelter (remember that name?) murdered Melissa and Mark Hortman in their own home after impersonating a police officer to gain entry, no citizens or lawmakers feared for their safety.
But pick off just ONE goddam unelected professional loudmouth white supremacist from 200 yards away as he bloviates in public about gun violence, and they all hide under their beds. Yay, Murka.
We are SO fucked.

PS my apology to @Gospel and others seeking to calm the waters. I feel right now that’s like closing all the doors and windows and pretending there’s no hurricane outside.

 

[Gospel]

I am really sick of seeing all the news on Kirk. The guy was a christian nationalist, a white nationalist, an anti-gay asswipe. Denying climate change, a 2020 election denier and antivax troglite. That a piece of shit and flags are at half mast over this.

I didn’t agree with or like the guy either, and I agree the coverage is completely overblown. If we were close by, I’d give you a fist bump for this post. But to me, this isn’t about who he was, it’s about someone being killed over their opinion. If we’re okay with Kirk getting shot, then we’ve got no right to complain when the same thing happens to someone we value.

It’s strange that this happened so close to 9/11, an event that profoundly changed America and the world. The rhetoric I’m seeing, both online and in person, is disturbing, people celebrating this man’s death as if they don’t have their own figures they admire who could one day be in the same danger. I can’t shake the feeling that this event marks a shift, and we haven’t yet seen the full aftermath.

I’ve heard people argue that if Kirk hadn’t been divisive, annoying, or bigoted, this wouldn’t have happened, that somehow it’s his own fault. But American history is filled with examples of people who preached peace and unity, only to be struck down violently.

I feel like I woke up in an alternative universe.

The fact is, we have no idea why Kirk was killed. Given that the person they arrested as the shooter appears to be conservative/christian and—no surprise: white and male—my best guess is that he was doing it for shits and giggles and mostly fame.

If I were to take a wild guess, it's because he wasn't saying the things someone wanted him to say. And for that, anyone can get shot.

 

[Politesse]

Up until this shooting I honestly did not even know who Charlie Kirk was.

Yet everyone on this forum seems to think I am the big MAGA licking hard right conspiracy nut.

Go figure.

I don't think he was exactly a household name before all this. Twenty somethings with internet access were more likely to know who he was, though. There are Turning Point organizations on most college campuses now, and it was big news in some corners of the internet when Kirk openly advocated for a few of the things he did. Tolerance of school shootings and advocating for the killing of homosexuals were both viral stories at points during the third election campaign. Then more recently, the flap over the Epstein files.

 

[Elixir]

I don't think he was exactly a household name before all this.

I thought he was Kirk Cameron, an Evangelical child actor (“Family Ties).
Same guy, just a bigger mouth.

 

[bilby]

Obviously we can't see into a parallel universe where the given assassination didn't occur in order to evaluate the differences, but history shows it's not a very good way to change things and can make things far, far worse, or at least greatly aggravate already tense circumstances (see the killing of Archduke Ferdinand).

From the point of view of the Serbian extremists who planned it, the killing of Archduke Ferdinand was a resounding success - Serbia remains independent to this day (and was, for a long time, the dominant player in the mish-mash of mutual dislike we called 'Yugoslavia').

Almost certainly, if the assassination and the subsequent Great War had not happened, Serbia would have been absorbed into either the Austro-Hungarian or the Ottoman Empires; Instead Serbia outlived both by over a century (and counting). It was one of the most effective political assassinations in history. Twenty million deaths is quite a bit of collateral damage, though.

 

[ZiprHead]

Seeing people saying that the memes inscribed on the casing are popular among 'groypers' which are fans of Nick Fuentes. So it is fascists killing fascists. Apparently Fuentes and Kirk didn't like each other.

 

[Derec]

The fact is, we have no idea why Kirk was killed.

We have some inkling.

Given that the person they arrested as the shooter appears to be conservative/christian

His parents seem to be, but he himself is a leftist by all accounts.

and—no surprise: white and male—

It would not be a Toni post without her denigrating white men.
When Iryna Zarutska was murdered, did you go "and—no surprise: a black man with a lengthy rap sheet!—"?
When Chandra Nagamallaiah was decapitated, did you go "and—no surprise: a Hispanic illegal who should have been deported a long time ago!—"?
No, of course you did not. You reserve your derision for white men specifically, even though whites are heavily underrepresented in homicides and other violent crimes.

my best guess is that he was doing it for shits and giggles and mostly fame.

Doubtful. That's a heavy price to pay for "shits and giggles".

 

[Derec]

[AI slop]

We are doing argumentum ad grokum? The slogans he used fit far better with a left-wing ideology.