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Split City Vs Country Politics

To notify a split thread.
Rural and urban dwellers share far more values in common than not. I believe that it is absolutely essential that everyone reach out and find common ground.
Of course.
Mathematically speaking, a significant portion of city people ARE voting Republican since only 14 percent of the US population is living in rural areas. And I know for an absolute fact, a bunch of them vote Democrat.
Also true.

Millions of city folks did vote for Trump in 2016 as well as 2020 and a significant minority of country folks voted for Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020, so we can only talk about tendencies. And yet there is an undeniable split between rural and urban dwellers when it comes to voting.

2016
1920px-2016_Presidential_Election_by_County.svg.png



2020
1920px-2020_Presidential_Election_by_County.svg.png
To be fair, such images can easily overstate the case. A county that is 51:49 on these maps isn’t distinguishable from one that’s 99:01, so the impression of a sharp divide between urban and rural is possibly an artefact of the electoral system, rather than a reality on the ground.

If you look at electorate maps of Sydney and Brisbane, they look much the same, with a clear divide between wealthy and working-class suburbs; But I was surprised to discover when I moved to Sydney that that city is FAR more polarised politically than Brisbane is. The maps simply cannot show the degree of polarisation, when they just show who won.
 
Millions of city folks did vote for Trump in 2016 as well as 2020 and a significant minority of country folks voted for Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020, so we can only talk about tendencies.
To be fair, such images can easily overstate the case. A county that is 51:49 on these maps isn’t distinguishable from one that’s 99:01, so the impression of a sharp divide between urban and rural is possibly an artefact of the electoral system, rather than a reality on the ground.

If you look at electorate maps of Sydney and Brisbane, they look much the same, with a clear divide between wealthy and working-class suburbs; But I was surprised to discover when I moved to Sydney that that city is FAR more polarised politically than Brisbane is. The maps simply cannot show the degree of polarisation, when they just show who won.
I think I covered that aspect.
 
To be fair, such images can easily overstate the case. A county that is 51:49 on these maps isn’t distinguishable from one that’s 99:01, so the impression of a sharp divide between urban and rural is possibly an artefact of the electoral system, rather than a reality on the ground.
That's why I like to keep this handy.

landdoesntvote.gif
 
To be fair, such images can easily overstate the case. A county that is 51:49 on these maps isn’t distinguishable from one that’s 99:01, so the impression of a sharp divide between urban and rural is possibly an artefact of the electoral system, rather than a reality on the ground.
That's why I like to keep this handy.

View attachment 39575
That doesn't address bilby's point, though. There are still either 100% blue or 100% red dots.

On a map that represented actual voter mixture, Portland Oregon would be deeply blue, Miami-Dade county in Florida would be a bluish purple. Union County in North Carolina would be a reddish purple. Washington County in Colorado would be deeply red.
 
Clinton's use of the word "deplorables" was rather more nuanced. Context is important. Here is what she actually said . . .

Putting Hillary Clinton's words in context? How dare you!

This is one topic on which BOTH Republicans and the left-wing of the Democrats are in agreement. Hillary Clinton's words should ALWAYS be taken out of context. If possible, try to find clauses whose meaning is OPPOSITE to that of the complete sentence, and quote just the contrary clause.

No warning issued, but providing context is frowned upon in post-rational America. Let's not make this a regular thing. 8-)
 
To be fair, such images can easily overstate the case. A county that is 51:49 on these maps isn’t distinguishable from one that’s 99:01, so the impression of a sharp divide between urban and rural is possibly an artefact of the electoral system, rather than a reality on the ground.

If you look at electorate maps of Sydney and Brisbane, they look much the same, with a clear divide between wealthy and working-class suburbs; But I was surprised to discover when I moved to Sydney that that city is FAR more polarised politically than Brisbane is. The maps simply cannot show the degree of polarisation, when they just show who won.
This. A realistic map needs to show things as shades of purple, not red/blue. Also, that map shows land area, not population. I noted a nearby big blue blob in 2020 that was red in 2016--what that map doesn't show you is that said blob is mostly Death Valley National Park. Total population of the county is 17k.
 
To be fair, such images can easily overstate the case. A county that is 51:49 on these maps isn’t distinguishable from one that’s 99:01, so the impression of a sharp divide between urban and rural is possibly an artefact of the electoral system, rather than a reality on the ground.
That's why I like to keep this handy.

View attachment 39575
That doesn't address bilby's point, though. There are still either 100% blue or 100% red dots.

On a map that represented actual voter mixture, Portland Oregon would be deeply blue, Miami-Dade county in Florida would be a bluish purple. Union County in North Carolina would be a reddish purple. Washington County in Colorado would be deeply red.
But it does show that the vast swaths of red do not reflect the views of the people. The maps in Hermit's post make America look mostly red when in reality the majority are blue.
 
Some interesting maps have been presented. How about this one, which when zoomed in, shows one dot PER PERSON! It doesn't show which way the person voted(!), but shows the race claimed in the 2020 census.

Univ Virginia's Cooper Center had a similar but better map for the 2010 census but it's been taken down. (Apparently one of their statistical experts noted that 2010 is 12 years in the past, so all information from that time should be erased!)
 
Good post, thanks for laying it all out.
Small towns are an outdated model in the modern U.S., a country that has left behind manufacturing and production and shifted into a service economy.

What small towns require (not need, not want... require) in order to be capable of residents to have their basic needs met is either:
A. a constant infusion of outside resources propping them up, basically indefinite long-term welfare.
B. a plan to relocate the populations out of those small towns into places where those needs can be met.
C. small towns to disconnect from dependence on the outside broader world and become more self-sustaining communities.

I see what you're saying, but I also have a different view. Off the top, I have fairly strident disagreements with outsourcing our primary manufacturing. And I think that some of the supply-line issues we've experienced during the pandemic have really exposed the weaknesses of that economic model. I thought they were pretty obvious weaknesses, but I've always seemed to be in the minority.

I also think there's a different underlying desire than you have outlined. Of course, it's complex and multifaceted, but what I think you're missing in your view is that some people have a desire for lebensraum, solitude, and also for community. And that's not something available in urban areas, and it's often lacking in modern suburban areas as well.

I hate cities. Not city-dwellers, most of them are fine. It's the cities themselves. I hate the press of people, the noise, the constant motion, and the lack of wildlife. I feel claustrophobic with that many people constantly around. I don't want to share walls with a stranger, I don't want to hear their arguments or their music or their TV. I want my own quiet and my solitude. I want to be able to be essentially alone while also being outside. I don't want to be surrounded by a sea of strangers, whose idea of culture is restaurants and bars. I want to know my neighbor's names, and know that if something happens I can call on them for help.

Your mention of relocating people to areas where their "needs" can be met... is very likely to cause those people deep unhappiness. If I were forced to live in a city, I would be extremely unhappy. It would take a definite toll on my mental health.

I also think that many of the reasons that created dense urban clusters in the past are no longer relevant. WE have sufficient technology and transportation that being physically located closely is not necessary. A huge number of employees can telecommute with no problem (about 98% of the employees at my company have been doing so for 2.5 years now). There's no need for Starbucks to have their headquarters in downtown Seattle. There's no reason they couldn't have their headquarters in Marysville.

Aside from the very lowest tier of Maslow's hierarchy, people who like urban areas and people who like rural areas have different sources for their needs. Divergence starts in the second tier - I think there's a very different conceptualization of security at play. As an example, I feel significantly less secure in urban settings than I do in rural settings. I feel more exposed to risk from other people than I do from wildlife. Love & belonging, esteem, etc. are all realized in different ways by different people. And I think that a whole lot of that drives the urban/rural divide than you may be taking into consideration.
 
Good post, thanks for laying it all out.
Small towns are an outdated model in the modern U.S., a country that has left behind manufacturing and production and shifted into a service economy.

What small towns require (not need, not want... require) in order to be capable of residents to have their basic needs met is either:
A. a constant infusion of outside resources propping them up, basically indefinite long-term welfare.
B. a plan to relocate the populations out of those small towns into places where those needs can be met.
C. small towns to disconnect from dependence on the outside broader world and become more self-sustaining communities.

I see what you're saying, but I also have a different view. Off the top, I have fairly strident disagreements with outsourcing our primary manufacturing. And I think that some of the supply-line issues we've experienced during the pandemic have really exposed the weaknesses of that economic model. I thought they were pretty obvious weaknesses, but I've always seemed to be in the minority.

I also think there's a different underlying desire than you have outlined. Of course, it's complex and multifaceted, but what I think you're missing in your view is that some people have a desire for lebensraum, solitude, and also for community. And that's not something available in urban areas, and it's often lacking in modern suburban areas as well.

I hate cities. Not city-dwellers, most of them are fine. It's the cities themselves. I hate the press of people, the noise, the constant motion, and the lack of wildlife. I feel claustrophobic with that many people constantly around. I don't want to share walls with a stranger, I don't want to hear their arguments or their music or their TV. I want my own quiet and my solitude. I want to be able to be essentially alone while also being outside. I don't want to be surrounded by a sea of strangers, whose idea of culture is restaurants and bars. I want to know my neighbor's names, and know that if something happens I can call on them for help.

Your mention of relocating people to areas where their "needs" can be met... is very likely to cause those people deep unhappiness. If I were forced to live in a city, I would be extremely unhappy. It would take a definite toll on my mental health.

I also think that many of the reasons that created dense urban clusters in the past are no longer relevant. WE have sufficient technology and transportation that being physically located closely is not necessary. A huge number of employees can telecommute with no problem (about 98% of the employees at my company have been doing so for 2.5 years now). There's no need for Starbucks to have their headquarters in downtown Seattle. There's no reason they couldn't have their headquarters in Marysville.

Aside from the very lowest tier of Maslow's hierarchy, people who like urban areas and people who like rural areas have different sources for their needs. Divergence starts in the second tier - I think there's a very different conceptualization of security at play. As an example, I feel significantly less secure in urban settings than I do in rural settings. I feel more exposed to risk from other people than I do from wildlife. Love & belonging, esteem, etc. are all realized in different ways by different people. And I think that a whole lot of that drives the urban/rural divide than you may be taking into consideration.
I think a lot of the issue I see comes in the deep desire to wrap oneself up in that solitude and put up a suspension of disbelief in perfect personal autonomy and independence.

The church says that the church is the center of that, the source of it. It replaces "god", or at least every useful thing people use "god" to describe with itself, and then says "we are the sole source and fountain of autonomy". It says "the disbelief is but a shadowed spectre, give up it's suspension and give in to revocation of disbelief;"

And in doing so sets all the communities in the orbit of that enticing siren's call not just outside the city but against it.

That's the big issue I see and I see no way to fix it.
 
I see what you're saying, but I also have a different view. Off the top, I have fairly strident disagreements with outsourcing our primary manufacturing. And I think that some of the supply-line issues we've experienced during the pandemic have really exposed the weaknesses of that economic model. I thought they were pretty obvious weaknesses, but I've always seemed to be in the minority.
Oh for sure, if "regulate manufacturing to make it continental and return those factories to the midwest" were a viable option in the U.S. I'd be all for it, but I've been approaching this subject with much more a realistic take on things.
As nice as it would be, that's never going to happen, so it's an awesome pie-in-the-sky idea, but not anything we can really latch onto in terms of actually solving the economic crisis in small towns.

I also think there's a different underlying desire than you have outlined. Of course, it's complex and multifaceted, but what I think you're missing in your view is that some people have a desire for lebensraum, solitude, and also for community. And that's not something available in urban areas, and it's often lacking in modern suburban areas as well.
Mind you I did specify that there was a distinction between "want" vs "need" in this case.
My mother went the whole "spent her adult life in a medium sized city and lost her capacity to deal with people and has spent the last 30 years moving into increasingly remote places fleeing the spread of urbanization" route as well, so while I personally do not experience that feeling I'm intimately familiar with people who do.

But again, pragmatic vs. idealistic - I'm not dismissing that desire for a life lived not-in-a-big-city, but right now the reality of the situation in the U.S. seems to be (in enough places for it to constitute a crisis anyways) that you can have that small town life or you can have access to the resources necessary to ensure your survival and stability, but most people can't seem have both.

Your mention of relocating people to areas where their "needs" can be met... is very likely to cause those people deep unhappiness. If I were forced to live in a city, I would be extremely unhappy. It would take a definite toll on my mental health.
Oh for sure, and I'm not saying that the economic solution is the same as the mental health one - everyone deserves to live how they choose (within reason) and I definitely am not saying that wanting to live away from dense packed urban centers is in any way wrong.

I feel like the side of this entire issue that involves the desires of people to live a certain way has simply not been pertinent in this thread up to now so I haven't been giving it specific mention, but that doesn't mean I think "jam everyone into a huge metroplex" is the correct solution for all of humanity's problems.

I also think that many of the reasons that created dense urban clusters in the past are no longer relevant. WE have sufficient technology and transportation that being physically located closely is not necessary. A huge number of employees can telecommute with no problem (about 98% of the employees at my company have been doing so for 2.5 years now). There's no need for Starbucks to have their headquarters in downtown Seattle. There's no reason they couldn't have their headquarters in Marysville.
Absolutely.
As I said a few posts ago, if you want to have a thread where we talk about how completely fucked up large cities are, I'll tear into that with equal gusto.
 
Oh for sure, and I'm not saying that the economic solution is the same as the mental health one - everyone deserves to live how they choose (within reason) and I definitely am not saying that wanting to live away from dense packed urban centers is in any way wrong.

I feel like the side of this entire issue that involves the desires of people to live a certain way has simply not been pertinent in this thread up to now so I haven't been giving it specific mention, but that doesn't mean I think "jam everyone into a huge metroplex" is the correct solution for all of humanity's problems.
I think this is a pretty salient point, and it's also where the voting power of population density comes into play.

When it comes to "needs" (quotes because very broad abstract concept here), those vary from person to person, as well as geography to geography. The foundation layer - sustenance, shelter, etc. is pretty universal, but even there geography plays a role that can't be dismissed. What constitutes sufficient shelter from the elements in Minot ND is a whole lot different from sufficient shelter in Oviedo FL, which is very different from what is necessary in Desert Center CA. My current working hypothesis is that people in densely populated urban areas have "needs" that are more alike to one another than the "needs" of people in rural areas. Not an inter-living-area comparison, but an intra-living-area one. So, for any combination of cities, whether they're east or west coast, hot or cold, a whole lot of the "needs" of the populace are going to be substantially the same - cost of living for apartments, public transportation, pollution, cost of medical care, crime profiles, etc. But when we look at rural areas, I think geographic concerns and local cultural elements can be a much more diverse driver of "need". The needs in rural South Dakota are a lot different from the needs in rural Alabama - to the extent that there is an element of agriculture involved, they're different crops, different livestock, different weather concerns, and different cultural backgrounds.

I think some of what happens in terms of policy and political momentum ends up being heavily skewed by urban areas, and rural areas end up "underserved". So the dense urban areas end up with representatives who are all trying to solve very similar problems, which can all be solved with a broad-reaching policy. But the rural areas have representatives who are trying to solve many very different problems, and each of those problems is likely to need a relatively bespoke solution. I think that part of what happens (and likely contributes to the rural-urban conflict) is that the urban centers end up being more likely to get collaborative federal attention that addresses their problems (even if not completely), and the rural areas kind of get ignored.

It's part of why I really do like the electoral college system. It tries to balance the wants of the populace (which will necessarily favor densely populated urban areas) with the wants of the states-as-entities (which favors the less populace states). It's far from perfect, but until we can overhaul FPTP and implement something more rational, at least it tries to provide some balance between competing needs.
 
1/6 Rioter said:
I can't believe Trump lied to us.
Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.
Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.
In 1979 I drove from Hartford Ct to Portland Or. Near Baker Or my car had problems. I got off the highway and parked in front of a closed gas station. As I was working on it a cop drove up, small town, and asked if I needed help. Later a kid drove by on a bike and said he knew a mechanic.

A few years ago a woman in my building was driving her Land Cruiser back to Seattle from LA. In some rural area the head gasket blew. A guy who had a shop and his family put her up until he could get to it.

Here in Seattle people can be very neighborly.
generally the same prole regardless of where they live.

I lived on and off in a small town in North Idaho. The house across the street had ab old suana with a wood fired boiler. The sign on the door aid bring oiur own wood or leave a few dollars for the wood.

There are exceptions of course. My sister and brother in law live in Mastic Beach on Long Island. They want nothing to do with neighbors.
 
I grew up on a steady stream of warnings about how nobody helped anybody in the big city. I did not find that to be at all true when I lived I large metropolitan areas and worked in the city proper. Nor did I find it at all true when I visited cities such as Chicago or Boston. But there, I was mostly in tourist areas, obviously touristing.
 
Clinton's use of the word "deplorables" was rather more nuanced. Context is important. Here is what she actually said . . .

Putting Hillary Clinton's words in context? How dare you!

This is one topic on which BOTH Republicans and the left-wing of the Democrats are in agreement. Hillary Clinton's words should ALWAYS be taken out of context. If possible, try to find clauses whose meaning is OPPOSITE to that of the complete sentence, and quote just the contrary clause.

No warning issued, but providing context is frowned upon in post-rational America. Let's not make this a regular thing. 8-)

I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.
 
Clinton's use of the word "deplorables" was rather more nuanced. Context is important. Here is what she actually said . . .

Putting Hillary Clinton's words in context? How dare you!

This is one topic on which BOTH Republicans and the left-wing of the Democrats are in agreement. Hillary Clinton's words should ALWAYS be taken out of context. If possible, try to find clauses whose meaning is OPPOSITE to that of the complete sentence, and quote just the contrary clause.

No warning issued, but providing context is frowned upon in post-rational America. Let's not make this a regular thing. 8-)

I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.

Jill Biden thinks I'm a breakfast taco.
No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA
The word "know" has one silent k.
The word "knuckle" has two silent k's.
The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.

Some of us like evidence-based thought.

As just two examples, FoxNews has on multiple occasions written "(D)" next to the name of an "(R)" Congressman when reporting on his criminality. Similarly they slur Nancy Pelosi's voice to make her appear drugged or senescent.

If I say "Stupid people think the Holocaust didn't happen," it would be possible to quote me "word for word" and say that I said ". . .the Holocaust didn't happen." Is that a fair quote? FoxNews has done EXACTLY this (slightly more subtle) with Hillary's words. What do you think of that?

Start with those, and then we'll move on. Have reality-based news programs (i.e. what your ilk calls "Fake News") ever done tricks like that? Cite?

As I say, we like EVIDENCE here. Can you do better than "Blah blah blah -- tu quoque"?

Are all Republicans to blame for the frauds at FoxNews? No. On the other hand, increasingly we see that "main-stream" Republicans feel that FoxNews doesn't hate or lie ENOUGH, and have turned to Truth Social, Infowars, AON, etc.
 
I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.
Do you?
Really?
Then why is this your signature? why do you choose to post it EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST?

Jill Biden thinks I'm a breakfast taco.
No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA
The word "know" has one silent k.
The word "knuckle" has two silent k's.
The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
 
Clinton's use of the word "deplorables" was rather more nuanced. Context is important. Here is what she actually said . . .

Putting Hillary Clinton's words in context? How dare you!

This is one topic on which BOTH Republicans and the left-wing of the Democrats are in agreement. Hillary Clinton's words should ALWAYS be taken out of context. If possible, try to find clauses whose meaning is OPPOSITE to that of the complete sentence, and quote just the contrary clause.

No warning issued, but providing context is frowned upon in post-rational America. Let's not make this a regular thing. 8-)

I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.

Jill Biden thinks I'm a breakfast taco.
No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA
The word "know" has one silent k.
The word "knuckle" has two silent k's.
The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.

As just two examples, FoxNews has on multiple occasions written "(D)" next to the name of an "(R)" Congressman when reporting on his criminality. Similarly they slur Nancy Pelosi's voice to make her appear drugged or senescent.

If I say "Stupid people think the Holocaust didn't happen," it would be possible to quote me "word for word" and say that I said ". . .the Holocaust didn't happen." Is that a fair quote? FoxNews has done EXACTLY this (slightly more subtle) with Hillary's words. What do you think of that?

Start with those, and then we'll move on. Have reality-based news programs (i.e. what your ilk calls "Fake News") ever done tricks like that? Cite?

So they do to the hated other party what is often done here about the other hated other party. That's not a tu quoque because I'm not excusing either.
 
I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.
Do you?
Really?
Then why is this your signature? why do you choose to post it EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST?

Jill Biden thinks I'm a breakfast taco.
No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA
The word "know" has one silent k.
The word "knuckle" has two silent k's.
The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
Because Joe Biden is a life long racist.
 
I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.

Jill Biden thinks I'm a breakfast taco.
No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA
The word "know" has one silent k.
The word "knuckle" has two silent k's.
The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.

As just two examples, FoxNews has on multiple occasions written "(D)" next to the name of an "(R)" Congressman when reporting on his criminality. Similarly they slur Nancy Pelosi's voice to make her appear drugged or senescent.

If I say "Stupid people think the Holocaust didn't happen," it would be possible to quote me "word for word" and say that I said ". . .the Holocaust didn't happen." Is that a fair quote? FoxNews has done EXACTLY this (slightly more subtle) with Hillary's words. What do you think of that?

Start with those, and then we'll move on. Have reality-based news programs (i.e. what your ilk calls "Fake News") ever done tricks like that? Cite?

So they do to the hated other party what is often done here about the other hated other party. That's not a tu quoque because I'm not excusing either.
:confused2: I see nothing that resembles evidence or even reason. You write a sentence with zero evidence that is the epitome of Tu Quoque, then say is is NOT because ... [Tu Quoque !]

Wow! You may have tied the gibberish-per-syllable record here.

I wish there was as much of a desire for respecting nuance when speaking about the hated other party as there is when defending ones own party.
Do you?
Really?
Then why is this your signature? why do you choose to post it EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST?

Jill Biden thinks I'm a breakfast taco.
No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA
The word "know" has one silent k.
The word "knuckle" has two silent k's.
The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
Because Joe Biden is a life long racist.

Again, zero evidence. You're keeping up your perfect record!!
 
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