Cocked and Loaded on Behalf of the Saudis

[RVonse]

Seems to me there is a still a reasonable doubt who is really responsible for this attack. Now, if this attack were a sexual assault, someone who be demanding "innocent until proven guilty". One would think the grounds for starting a possible war in the ME would have to meet the same standard.

Agreed.

It isn't very often I agree with you over Derec but I sure do when it comes to starting up a possible war.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Nothing I have seen convinces me that Iran did this. If Iran did this I want to see evidence that Iran did this. Is that too much to ask? This isn't Pearl Harbor, it's more like the Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin.

The aerial picture released showing the impacts shows exactly that. We all remember invading Iraq to remove the WMDs the administration said were all over the place and had all those fake pictures to prove it. We had inspectors on the ground in Iraq for fuck's sake and still the administration was beating the drums.

There were no WMDs. Remember? We invaded for control of oil only.

Derec, take a fucking smart pill.

 

[ZiprHead]

Nothing I have seen convinces me that Iran did this. If Iran did this I want to see evidence that Iran did this. Is that too much to ask? This isn't Pearl Harbor, it's more like the Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin.

The aerial picture released showing the impacts shows exactly that. We all remember invading Iraq to remove the WMDs the administration said were all over the place and had all those fake pictures to prove it. We had inspectors on the ground in Iraq for fuck's sake and still the administration was beating the drums.

There were no WMDs. Remember? We invaded for control of oil only.

Derec, take a fucking smart pill.

Totally agree.

One of the hazards of lying to constituents on a daily basis is that the time you need to be believed no one will.

But that's here nor there.

Even if Iran did this, that's no reason for Bonespurs to pimp out our military to fight the KSA's fight for them. As he said, "They pay cash." To whom and how? Turning our military into a mercenary force is unacceptable. Not to mention KSA has the 3rd highest military budget in the world.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's no Iranian aggression. There's just retaliation by Yemenis, against Saudis, using weapons purchased from the Yemenis' ally, Iran.

As a wise man once asked:

And selling weapons to our allies is wrong because?

You realize that the "Yemenis" are an Iranian client state? Anything major from there is on orders from Tehran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't believe what the "officials say", now that they've had plenty of time to think up a spin that supports their objective of going to war with Iran.

You're not paying attention. The Houthis have been a known Iranian client for many years, this isn't something new cooked up to justify war.

And there's never been a revolutionary/terrorist/freedom fighter organisation in history that has been a wholly owned subsidiary of their sponsors. Much to the dismay of many such sponsors (including the USA) on many occasions.

Agreed--Tehran isn't controlling every day-to-day action of the Houthis. However, when they use high tech weapons that's under Tehran's control--those aren't provided indiscriminately.

So I don't believe your spin, either. It would be just as reasonable, and just as wrong, to say that the Saudis are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Pentagon.

We aren't providing the KSA's budget.

 

[bilby]

There's no Iranian aggression. There's just retaliation by Yemenis, against Saudis, using weapons purchased from the Yemenis' ally, Iran.

As a wise man once asked:

And selling weapons to our allies is wrong because?

You realize that the "Yemenis" are an Iranian client state? Anything major from there is on orders from Tehran.

So people keep asserting.

But the reality of revolutionaries, insurgents, terrorists, freedom fighters, whatever you call them, throughout history, is that they fight first and foremost for themselves, their communities, families, and beliefs. State sponsors and supporters often like to imagine that they are pulling the strings, but the fighters will tolerate being told what to do only so far as it matches their own objectives; And the relationship is invariably more about supplies and logistical support than it is about command and control.

The Iranians share some commonality of cause with the Houthis, and they supply them with weapons. But they only give orders insofar as "Now you have the weapons, go and do what you wanted to do in the first place" is an 'order'.

Iran no more controls the Houthis actions in Yemen or Saudi Arabia than the CIA controlled the Mujahideen actions in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan war. The CIA liked to think that they held the purse strings, and were therefore in charge; But the Afghan fighters did what Americans told them to do only where it was what they wanted to do anyway.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Even if Iran did this, that's no reason for Bonespurs to pimp out our military to fight the KSA's fight for them. As he said, "They pay cash." To whom and how? Turning our military into a mercenary force is unacceptable. Not to mention KSA has the 3rd highest military budget in the world.

Trump is after personal enrichment. The Saudis are providing his business brand with lots of money. This conflict of interests is only too obvious, as evidenced by his own campaign rhetoric from not so long ago. The Draft Dodger in Chief only wants the money, if that's what he can get away with.

 

[Derec]

Trump is after personal enrichment. The Saudis are providing his business brand with lots of money. This conflict of interests is only too obvious, as evidenced by his own campaign rhetoric from not so long ago. The Draft Dodger in Chief only wants the money, if that's what he can get away with.

If that is the case, why aren't we bombing them yet? Why was one of the biggest Iran-hawks fired recently?

 

[Derec]

But the reality of revolutionaries, insurgents, terrorists, freedom fighters, whatever you call them, throughout history, is that they fight first and foremost for themselves, their communities, families, and beliefs. State sponsors and supporters often like to imagine that they are pulling the strings, but the fighters will tolerate being told what to do only so far as it matches their own objectives; And the relationship is invariably more about supplies and logistical support than it is about command and control.

You are talking in generalities. In reality there are different levels on control and allegiance. Take Hamas vs. Islamic Jihad in Gaza. Both are supported by Iran, but Hamas is more independent of the two and PIJ is more like Hezbollah as far as being controlled from Tehran.

Iran no more controls the Houthis actions in Yemen or Saudi Arabia than the CIA controlled the Mujahideen actions in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan war.

Bullshit. The only thing that united US and the Mujaheddin was a temporarily common enemy, the Soviet Union. But from the vantage point of those Islamists, US and USSR were barely distinguishable. Both were kafir from the West who didn't cover up their womenfolk and enjoyed other haram things like pork, alcohol and instrumental music. Supporting the Mujaheddin was one of the greatest foreign policy blunders US ever did, and not even Tom Hanks could make it look good.

On the other hand, Houthis are ideologically very close to the Iranian weird beards. Both are Shiites, both hate US, Israel, and the Saudis. The Houthi slogan "Allah is great, death to the US, death to Israel, curse the Jews, and victory for Islam" could be yelled by the crowd on so-called "Quds Day" in Tehran.

 

[Derec]

Even if Iran did this, that's no reason for Bonespurs to pimp out our military to fight the KSA's fight for them. As he said, "They pay cash." To whom and how? Turning our military into a mercenary force is unacceptable. Not to mention KSA has the 3rd highest military budget in the world.

It is in US national interest to
- keep Saudi monarchy from collapsing
- prevent Iranian theocrats from controlling more countries than they already are
- keep oil flowing freely in the Gulf

 

[Derec]

The POTUS is the CIC.

[surprised Pikachu]

You should familiarize yourself with the US form of government.

I am well familiar. I am just shook because
- you knew what CIC was
- you used an official title, when usually it's "Clownface Von Fuckstick" and similar.

Perhaps, although there is no evidence his particular ignorance of matters of foreign and military policy is greater than yours.

Since the level of my ignorance approaches the absolute zero, I find that infinitesimally unlikely.

There is no evidence in your responses.

That's because your level of reading comprehension is nil.

Which is evidence of damage, not of the who the culprit is.

Which is already more than most sexual assault cases have.
But the satellite photos show not just that the attack happened, they show that they did not come from the direction of Yemen, the designated fall guys by their Iranian masters.

It is pretty slim evidence. Since it is possible that some other actor is trying to frame Iran.

Actually the evidence is pretty strong. Who do you think was trying to frame Iran, and if Iran was not involved, why were their vassals so quick to play the fall guys?

 

[Derec]

No, it's not. It's a crisis for no one but the Saudis.

My gas being $0.20/gal more expensive proves that was a lie.
KSA is the only real swing producer the world oil market has. They are by far the biggest oil exporter as well - US and Russia produce comparable amounts but both Russian domestic consumption is bigger and ours exceeds the production making us a net importer.


Not doing anything meaningful over this aggression will embolden Iranians further. The next attack may knock out even more of their capacity and for a longer duration. That would send the whole world into an oil crisis.

 

[fromderinside]

Wow. A twenty cent spike as 'proof'. That's less than a couple cups of Starbucks per tank. Surely that's going to cause you to emotionally meltdown.

Convenient Chart! It leaves out US output while you claim wrongly we are a net importer which we aren't. Wow Iraq is left off chart with its over four million barrels a day output. Even with corrupt communists in charge Venezuela output is 1.4 million bbl/day and North Sea production is about 2.2 million bbl/day.

When you want to make a 'point' you match Trump. Sad.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump is after personal enrichment. The Saudis are providing his business brand with lots of money. This conflict of interests is only too obvious, as evidenced by his own campaign rhetoric from not so long ago. The Draft Dodger in Chief only wants the money, if that's what he can get away with.

If that is the case, why aren't we bombing them yet? Why was one of the biggest Iran-hawks fired recently?

Maybe it was this?

(BOLTON) HARSHLY CRITICIZED TRUMP’S FOREIGN POLICY ON WEDNESDAY AT A PRIVATE LUNCH, SAYING THAT INVITING THE TALIBAN TO CAMP DAVID SENT A “TERRIBLE SIGNAL” AND THAT IT WAS “DISRESPECTFUL” TO THE VICTIMS OF 9/11 BECAUSE THE TALIBAN HAD HARBORED AL QAEDA.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Trump has gone from despising SA to being their chums. One really has to wonder if he has any idea what he's doing, particularly in light of his revolving-door cabinet.

My take is that short of an Iranian invasion or open aggression he's just gonna sit back and take the money. It's really a win-win situation for him personally and politically. He dumped Bolton because he really doesn't want to do anything that threatens his reelection chances or personal cash flow. In every instance where he criticized the previous administration he has done exactly the same thing, the only difference being that publicly he talks a different talk and his minions salivate. He's a pretty good showman in that sense, as he's always been. His entertainment value is what got him elected.

We'll see if any incontrovertible evidence of Iranian action in these bombings is produced. I don't think we'll see any, even if it's there, and only because he doesn't want to see it, which is the same reason Bolton is gone. And that's not a conspiracy theory, just politics.

 

[Elixir]

My understanding they used toy drones anybody can buy. How are they going to link Iran to this?

Where did you get that? I have not seen that claim anywhere.

Yeah, sounds like typical made up barbie bullshit. Most dime-store drones can't do this:

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My understanding they used toy drones anybody can buy. How are they going to link Iran to this?

Where did you get that? I have not seen that claim anywhere.

Yeah, sounds like typical made up barbie bullshit. Most dime-store drones can't do this:
View attachment 23836

Dime store drones can fly... a short distance. Drones that costs thousands of dollars can be flown larger distances and can take good video/pics. They can't however, drag explosives or missiles along with them.

 

[Gun Nut]

Yeah, sounds like typical made up barbie bullshit. Most dime-store drones can't do this:
View attachment 23836

Dime store drones can fly... a short distance. Drones that costs thousands of dollars can be flown larger distances and can take good video/pics. They can't however, drag explosives or missiles along with them.

sure they can! They just grab them by the husk!


But seriously.. I wanted to comment just on this:

Since the level of my ignorance approaches the absolute zero, I find that infinitesimally unlikely.

Wow. It's rare that I run into an individual that claims to know absolutely everything about something. Last time it was this mildly autistic kid in 7th grade that had a complete meltdown when the teacher called on another student to do some part of a team project. The kid was screaming "nobody can do that right except me!!!". He had to be dragged out of the science lab kicking and screaming.
Anyway.. haven't thought about that traumatic scene in a long time... Derec, did you attend Jr. High School in NY, by any chance?

 

[RVonse]

Trump has gone from despising SA to being their chums. One really has to wonder if he has any idea what he's doing, particularly in light of his revolving-door cabinet.

My take is that short of an Iranian invasion or open aggression he's just gonna sit back and take the money. It's really a win-win situation for him personally and politically. He dumped Bolton because he really doesn't want to do anything that threatens his reelection chances or personal cash flow. In every instance where he criticized the previous administration he has done exactly the same thing, the only difference being that publicly he talks a different talk and his minions salivate. He's a pretty good showman in that sense, as he's always been. His entertainment value is what got him elected.

We'll see if any incontrovertible evidence of Iranian action in these bombings is produced. I don't think we'll see any, even if it's there, and only because he doesn't want to see it, which is the same reason Bolton is gone. And that's not a conspiracy theory, just politics.

More mindless chatter about Trump.

You guys can spin and dream away if you want. But in the final analysis, nobody has started another crappy and expensive war right now. Not yet. And thats a gpod thing if you respect all life as I do.

Pull your head out of your ass for a few seconds of fresh air. And judge people by what they have actually done or not done. In this case, realize no one is yet dying in another stupid war!

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-missiles-drones-in-attack-on-saudi-oilfield/

The "drones" that attacked Saudi Arabia were not the sort of toys you can order from Amazon.