"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

[bilby]

Is Sweden using a different metric for what makes a covid case and deaths?

Different from what? The metrics used in the USA? Almost certainly. The metrics previously used in Sweden? Again, almost certainly.

Perfect data and universal metrics (for any data collection context) are about as easy to find as rocking horse droppings. That goes triple during a pandemic of a novel infectious agent, which is more akin to a battlefield than to a business (and even business data is shit).

Because their cases numbers are going up a lot and deaths have flatlined at 1-5 a day.

Simple comparative analysis of data from different locations, dates, or sources is almost certain to be misleading. We have only in the last couple of decades gotten a decent handle on the scale, scope, and pattern of the pandemic of 1918; If you want high quality answers about how COVID-19 affected different regions of the world at various times in the early 2020s, you will likely need to wait years, possibly decades, to get it.

During a pandemic, the responsible authorities are lucky to get half-baked data, from which they use their experience, judgment and gut feelings to try to make at least non-awful decisions. Having a bunch of amateurs with completely unreasonable and unrealistic expectations for how much information they have (and how good that information is) trying to monday morning quarterback isn't really helpful.

 

[repoman]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

 

[bilby]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

I have no idea how what you are saying here in any way relates to what said, though it appears to be a reply to my post immediately above.

"well neither is..." implies that I made some kind of specific claim that something isn't something else; But I did not.

[ETA: Oh, I see. It's a reaction to my saying that monday morning quarterbacking isn't helpful.

I am still no wiser as to its relevance, other than perhaps as a very weak Tu Quoque fallacy]

I have a vague suspicion that "$18,000 for each covid death for the hospital" is a reference to some kind of conspiracy theory that hospitals are being financially incentivised to over report covid deaths; But you are assuming a close familiarity with such claims on my part that is absent, perhaps because I don't frequent the same corners of the Internet, or the same American news media, that you do.

My experience with hospitals in the UK and in Australia suggests that any attempt to financially influence their reporting processes by anyone would be futile. I mean, even if a hospital got funding based on reported deaths, that funding wouldn't be directed to the personal wealth of the persons responsible for the reporting, and so would be completely ineffective.

I have noted a tendency, particularly amongst Americans, to assume that anyone can be influenced to do anything if sufficient money is offered. But in my experience, that's a totally baseless assumption, particularly amongst professionals in the healthcare system during a medical crisis.

Sorry if that response seems unrelated to your thoughts; But as it's a reply to what is to me a complete non-sequitur, I am not confident that it could possibly be truly relevant.

If you had responded "Brillig were the slithy toves", it would have certainly been less confusing to me.

 

[Jokodo]

Warning: NSFW

NYC pushing kinky COVID sex! - 2020 Jun 11

My little town is reopening in more ways than one. On Monday of this week, the day the city entered Phase 1 of reopening, New York City’s Health Department published a guidance document entitled “Safer Sex and COVID-19.” I am posting it below in its entirely because (1) it’s amazing, and (2) I have no idea whether other states (or countries) are doing anything similar. For instance, I highly doubt Alabama is following suit, since sex toys are illegal there. And something tells me all those conservative panty-sniffers in states where “abstinence-only” non-education is standard fare in public schools would start shooting their elected officials if they dared to publish anything so…so… reality-based.

Recommends forms of sexual activity that involve social distancing.

How is this nsfw? It's an official government document

 

[repoman]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

I have no idea how what you are saying here in any way relates to what said, though it appears to be a reply to my post immediately above.

"well neither is..." implies that I made some kind of specific claim that something isn't something else; But I did not.

[ETA: Oh, I see. It's a reaction to my saying that monday morning quarterbacking isn't helpful.

I am still no wiser as to its relevance, other than perhaps as a very weak Tu Quoque fallacy]

I have a vague suspicion that "$18,000 for each covid death for the hospital" is a reference to some kind of conspiracy theory that hospitals are being financially incentivised to over report covid deaths; But you are assuming a close familiarity with such claims on my part that is absent, perhaps because I don't frequent the same corners of the Internet, or the same American news media, that you do.

My experience with hospitals in the UK and in Australia suggests that any attempt to financially influence their reporting processes by anyone would be futile. I mean, even if a hospital got funding based on reported deaths, that funding wouldn't be directed to the personal wealth of the persons responsible for the reporting, and so would be completely ineffective.

I have noted a tendency, particularly amongst Americans, to assume that anyone can be influenced to do anything if sufficient money is offered. But in my experience, that's a totally baseless assumption, particularly amongst professionals in the healthcare system during a medical crisis.

Sorry if that response seems unrelated to your thoughts; But as it's a reply to what is to me a complete non-sequitur, I am not confident that it could possibly be truly relevant.

If you had responded "Brillig were the slithy toves", it would have certainly been less confusing to me.

This 8s a good article

https://khn.org/news/the-covid-19-bailout-thats-left-every-hospital-unhappy-in-its-own-way/

 

[Loren Pechtel]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

Continuing to repeat right-wing deceptions doesn't make the virus go away.

 

[repoman]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

Continuing to repeat right-wing deceptions doesn't make the virus go away.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

 

[Angry Floof]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

Continuing to repeat right-wing deceptions doesn't make the virus go away.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

There is no evidence that anyone, doctors, hospital administrators, states, anyone, is abusing covid payments.

https://local12.com/news/local/fact...ng-covid-19-cases-to-get-paid-more-cincinnati

Phone calls into the Local 12 newsroom have some people concerned over allegations that hospitals are misreporting COVID-19 cases and death.
...
“There is no evidence at all in the data. It's a conspiracy theory because there is an extra payment. The CARES Act has said that if you have people that have a coronavirus diagnosis, that you can get some extra money,” said Silvers.

The CARES Act did create relief funding for hospitals. It has a 20% add-on to be paid for Medicare patients with COVID-19. It also helps reimburse hospitals for treating uninsured patients.

FactCheck.org said the numbers Jensen suggests are “average Medicare payments for similar complications.”

“What we have now: allegations, concerns, conspiracy assumptions. Things like that. No evidence,” said Silvers

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

Numerous readers have asked us about such claims, some of which imply that hospitals are making money by simply listing patients as having the disease — when in fact the payments referenced are for treating patients. And while some of the posts imply that fraud may be afoot, multiple experts told us that such theories of hospitals deliberately miscoding patients as COVID-19 are not supported by any evidence.

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/l...are-hospitals-inflating-covid-19-death-count/

In fact, medical experts believe disparities are resulting in an undercount. They attribute a lack of testing in underserved communities, difficulty in outreach for the homeless population and uncertainty about whether at-risk patients died from pre-existing conditions and were never diagnosed with COVID-19 and maybe never received proper treatment.

There's more where that came from if you want to look a little further than blind conjecture.

Oh, wait, there is one case of one hospital in India that reported one patient as having covid when they didn't, but that was for the purpose of allowing the family to take the body, not for payment. Maybe you could run with that somehow. lol

 

[bilby]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

I have no idea how what you are saying here in any way relates to what said, though it appears to be a reply to my post immediately above.

"well neither is..." implies that I made some kind of specific claim that something isn't something else; But I did not.

[ETA: Oh, I see. It's a reaction to my saying that monday morning quarterbacking isn't helpful.

I am still no wiser as to its relevance, other than perhaps as a very weak Tu Quoque fallacy]

I have a vague suspicion that "$18,000 for each covid death for the hospital" is a reference to some kind of conspiracy theory that hospitals are being financially incentivised to over report covid deaths; But you are assuming a close familiarity with such claims on my part that is absent, perhaps because I don't frequent the same corners of the Internet, or the same American news media, that you do.

My experience with hospitals in the UK and in Australia suggests that any attempt to financially influence their reporting processes by anyone would be futile. I mean, even if a hospital got funding based on reported deaths, that funding wouldn't be directed to the personal wealth of the persons responsible for the reporting, and so would be completely ineffective.

I have noted a tendency, particularly amongst Americans, to assume that anyone can be influenced to do anything if sufficient money is offered. But in my experience, that's a totally baseless assumption, particularly amongst professionals in the healthcare system during a medical crisis.

Sorry if that response seems unrelated to your thoughts; But as it's a reply to what is to me a complete non-sequitur, I am not confident that it could possibly be truly relevant.

If you had responded "Brillig were the slithy toves", it would have certainly been less confusing to me.

This 8s a good article

https://khn.org/news/the-covid-19-bailout-thats-left-every-hospital-unhappy-in-its-own-way/

Perhaps it is. As you didn't provide anything other than a link I have no intention of clicking, I shall probably never know.

 

[Angry Floof]

This 8s a good article

https://khn.org/news/the-covid-19-bailout-thats-left-every-hospital-unhappy-in-its-own-way/

Perhaps it is. As you didn't provide anything other than a link I have no intention of clicking, I shall probably never know.

All it says is that hospitals do get extra money for treating covid patients. In repo's mind, that is proof that hospitals are now engaged in a scheme to make big bucks lying about covid patient numbers.

 

[southernhybrid]

This 8s a good article

https://khn.org/news/the-covid-19-bailout-thats-left-every-hospital-unhappy-in-its-own-way/

Perhaps it is. As you didn't provide anything other than a link I have no intention of clicking, I shall probably never know.

All it says is that hospitals do get extra money for treating covid patients. In repo's mind, that is proof that hospitals are now engaged in a scheme to make big bucks lying about covid patient numbers.

It's basically another slap in the face of those who are trying to provide care for COVID patients. The intention is that doctors are lying about the cause of death to get extra funding for their hospitals. This bullshit came right out of the mouth of Trump!

 

[southernhybrid]

I went tot he store early this morning and as usual there were about 5 white male assholes who weren't wearing masks, despite the sign on the door that says masks are required. Thanks to Trump, masks. have been politicized.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/23/health/covid-deaths.html

Universal mask use could prevent nearly 130,000 deaths from Covid-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus, in the United States through next spring, scientists reported on Friday.

The findings follow an assertion by Dr. Scott W. Atlas, the president’s science adviser, that masks are ineffective, in a tweet later taken down by Twitter for spreading misinformation. On Wednesday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new guidance recommending mask use in public settings, including public transportation.

A surge of infections, driven in part by neglect of safety precautions, has begun to overwhelm hospitals in much of the nation. More than 75,000 new cases were reported in the United States on Thursday, the second-highest daily total nationwide since the pandemic began. Eight states set single-day case records.

These numbers are likely to continue through the fall and winter, with a steady rise in cases and deaths until January and staying high after that point, said Christopher Murray, director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington and lead author of the report.

Dr. Murray and his colleagues showed that mask use, in particular, has a considerable impact, cutting down the risk of infection at both an individual and population level by about half.

As of Sept. 20, just under half of Americans reported that they always wear a mask. But regular mask use by 95 percent of the population would save 129,574 lives, according to the new analysis. Regular mask use by just 85 percent of Americans could prevent 95,814 deaths by March 2021, possibly forestalling restrictive lockdowns, Dr. Murray said.

“Increasing mask use is one of the best strategies that we have right now to delay the imposition of social distancing mandates and all the economic effects of that, and save lives,” he said.

Masks are an effective and inexpensive tool to stem the spread of the virus and yet have unfortunately become politicized, like much else in the pandemic, said Dr. Carlos del Rio, an infectious disease expert at Emory University in Atlanta.

“If you wear a mask, you’re a Democrat,” he said. “If you don’t wear a mask, you are a Republican. And I think that’s what’s totally wrong.”

“The fact that we continue making masks such a political issue is really upsetting,” he added, “because quite frankly, I don’t want to see people die.”

People who refuse to wear masks have no concern for their fellow citizens. They listen to Trump, who has no understanding of science, instead of scientists and medical professionals in the field of infection control and epidemiology. How stupid is that!

 

[crazyfingers]

People who refuse to wear masks have no concern for their fellow citizens. They listen to Trump, who has no understanding of science, instead of scientists and medical professionals in the field of infection control and epidemiology. How stupid is that!

I think that Trump does understand the science that mask wearing will significantly reduce the spread of the virus. He has simply decided that it's in his political best interest to deny it in order to make his increasingly stupid base happier with him. He has decided that he values winning reelection more than he values saving hundreds of thousands of lives. I hope that there are enough sufficiently non-stupid people out there to cause him to lose the election.

 

[southernhybrid]

People who refuse to wear masks have no concern for their fellow citizens. They listen to Trump, who has no understanding of science, instead of scientists and medical professionals in the field of infection control and epidemiology. How stupid is that!

I think that Trump does understand the science that mask wearing will significantly reduce the spread of the virus. He has simply decided that it's in his political best interest to deny it in order to make his increasingly stupid base happier with him. He has decided that he values winning reelection more than he values saving hundreds of thousands of lives. I hope that there are enough sufficiently non-stupid people out there to cause him to lose the election.

You are probably right, considering that it doesn't take a psychiatrist to know that Trump is a sociopath. Cult leaders tend to be sociopaths. But then again, several of Pence's team have just tested positive for COVID. Supposedly the entire WH is very lax about wearing masks and social distancing.

I have no doubt that there are enough people who will vote for Biden. I don't have enough faith anymore in our election system. That's the real problem. Hopefully the attempts to suppress the vote will make people angry enough to vote. The extremely long lines in Georgia and high rate of mail in ballots that have already been received, gives me hope. It's not since 1992 that Georgia was blue. It's time for a change.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

yeah, well neither is $18,000 for each covid death for the hospital.

Continuing to repeat right-wing deceptions doesn't make the virus go away.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

That's just the usual diagnosis-related pricing that's been going on for many years. It hasn't prompted fake diagnoses before, why should it prompt them now?

 

[George S]

People who refuse to wear masks have no concern for their fellow citizens. They listen to Trump, who has no understanding of science, instead of scientists and medical professionals in the field of infection control and epidemiology. How stupid is that!

I think that Trump does understand the science that mask wearing will significantly reduce the spread of the virus. He has simply decided that it's in his political best interest to deny it in order to make his increasingly stupid base happier with him. He has decided that he values winning reelection more than he values saving hundreds of thousands of lives. I hope that there are enough sufficiently non-stupid people out there to cause him to lose the election.

Yes, mask use slows the spread -- flattens the curve. And N95 is recommended for the elderly for personal protection.
Another way to say that is that it prolongs the epidemic. This gives more time for good treatments to be found making the death count lower. If a vaccine were found the death rate quickly goes to zero.
Or no government-ordered masking or lockdown. Voluntary. Use for personal protection is always allowed. Stores either require masks or not. Consumers choose which to go to. South Dakota did this in April after an initial lockdown. S.D has a lower death rate than all its neighbors except Montana which also reopened in April.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

People who refuse to wear masks have no concern for their fellow citizens. They listen to Trump, who has no understanding of science, instead of scientists and medical professionals in the field of infection control and epidemiology. How stupid is that!

I think that Trump does understand the science that mask wearing will significantly reduce the spread of the virus. He has simply decided that it's in his political best interest to deny it in order to make his increasingly stupid base happier with him. He has decided that he values winning reelection more than he values saving hundreds of thousands of lives. I hope that there are enough sufficiently non-stupid people out there to cause him to lose the election.

Yes, mask use slows the spread -- flattens the curve. And N95 is recommended for the elderly for personal protection.
Another way to say that is that it prolongs the epidemic. This gives more time for good treatments to be found making the death count lower. If a vaccine were found the death rate quickly goes to zero.
Or no government-ordered masking or lockdown. Voluntary. Use for personal protection is always allowed. Stores either require masks or not. Consumers choose which to go to. South Dakota did this in April after an initial lockdown. S.D has a lower death rate than all its neighbors except Montana which also reopened in April.

What's wrong with the elderly using N95s? They don't restrict your breathing that much.

 

[George S]

Yes, mask use slows the spread -- flattens the curve. And N95 is recommended for the elderly for personal protection.
Another way to say that is that it prolongs the epidemic. This gives more time for good treatments to be found making the death count lower. If a vaccine were found the death rate quickly goes to zero.
Or no government-ordered masking or lockdown. Voluntary. Use for personal protection is always allowed. Stores either require masks or not. Consumers choose which to go to. South Dakota did this in April after an initial lockdown. S.D has a lower death rate than all its neighbors except Montana which also reopened in April.

What's wrong with the elderly using N95s? They don't restrict your breathing that much.

Nothing is wrong with it. Quite the opposite. Recommended for folks like me. I wear mine when going shopping all the time regardless of official government edicts.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

That's just the usual diagnosis-related pricing that's been going on for many years. It hasn't prompted fake diagnoses before, why should it prompt them now?

Trump is the one who has started this nonsense about COVID not being the cause of death. According to him, if someone has cancer and they die of COVID, it's really the cancer that killed the person. This is ignorant bullshit as I'm sure you know, but some of his supporters have bought into this stupidity.

Let me explain to repoman, since he might be one who believes this. Let's say that someone has resistant hypertension, which eventually leads to kidney failure. Then they die of kidney failure. According to Trump's logic, it was the hypertension that killed the person. No, the hypertension was just a risk factor for kidney failure, but the kidney failure was the actual cause of death.

Now, do the same for COVID. If someone has cancer, or diabetes, those are risk factors for complications of COVID. But if the person with those diseases dies while infected with COVID, it's not the cancer of the diabetes that killed the person, it's COVID that killed the person. It's like when a very old person dies. WE never say that they died of old age. Old age is a risk factor for death, but heart failure, a stroke, cancer etc. are what killed the person. Do you understand how that works now repoman? I worked as a medical professional for 42 years and I've not aware of any doctor or hospital making up a false reason for a death just so they can get more money. Sometimes we don't really know the cause of death, but it's pretty obvious when COVID is the cause of death, regardless of what underlying risk factors that person had.

Until an effective vaccine and/or treatment is developed, the best thing we can do is wear masks and practice social distancing. These things aren't 100% effective but they are far more effective then pretending this virus isn't potentially deadly as well as. having severe complications in some individuals. Sure, some people have mild cases, but none of us know how we might respond if we become infected. Wearing a mask is about respect for your fellow citizens, since it only offers the wearer some mild protection. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[repoman]

One thing that I think might be slipping through the cracks in the US for sure is our workaholic attitudes and job/insurance insecurity that leads people to show up to work sick. People here especially in the lower rungs are always scared to death of staying home for a week or ten days and employers are at fault.

Or working (or going out in public) when just showing the first inklings of being sick or even for two or three days past that. They will wait until they are seriously ill to decide to not come to work.

The infectivity at this point is the highest.


So how does a message of staying home NO MATTER WHAT when you feel a touch under the weather get out? Also, when is it ok to go back to work? There has to be a reasonable level here. Three days is too soon, one month after the end of mild/medium symptoms is insanely too long. If the quarantine time is too long people will LIE about ever feeling sick, because they are income insecure.

TLDR: Job and health insurance insecurity makes even job site ad hoc test and trace very hard in the U.S.