"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

[George S]

Which explains how easily it has become politicized. If one understands and accepts scientific knowledge one is okay with the vaccine. The right has shown itself to be anti-science, very likely out of fear. It's knowledge and language they do not understand, making the shift to some other rationalization both convenient and comfortable.

Well, when knowledge and language impugn your worldview as false and you are too much of a lazy bastard to re-imagine a whole new world view, what else can you do but reject reality?

This seems to me to be a recognition of cognitive dissonance. When a tru-believer's belief/worldview is challenged they typically resort to reality rejection. The response of a mind to cognitive dissonance is sometimes word salad. Sometimes "But what about..." If asked 5 minutes later your interlocutor will be unable to even state your position; he has forgotten it.

Admittedly the vaccines have not even been in existence long enough to know anything about long-term risk or effectiveness. There are a number of treatment protocols so the death rate of delta is very low. The vaccinated lower death-rate than the unvaccinated who get delta. If ADE (antibody-dependent enhancement) applies (most virologists think not but some do*) that would be of the most serious consequence.

* ADE occurs in dengue fever because dengue comes in types. If a person is infected by one serotype of dengue virus, they typically have mild disease and generate a protective immune response, including neutralizing antibodies, against that serotype. But, if that person is infected with a second serotype of dengue virus, the neutralizing antibodies generated from the first infection may bind to the virus and actually increase the virus’s ability to enter cells, resulting in ADE and causing a severe form of the disease, called dengue hemorrhagic fever. (https://www.chop.edu/centers-progra...y/antibody-dependent-enhancement-and-vaccines)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Which explains how easily it has become politicized. If one understands and accepts scientific knowledge one is okay with the vaccine. The right has shown itself to be anti-science, very likely out of fear. It's knowledge and language they do not understand, making the shift to some other rationalization both convenient and comfortable.

Well, when knowledge and language impugn your worldview as false and you are too much of a lazy bastard to re-imagine a whole new world view, what else can you do but reject reality?

This seems to me to be a recognition of cognitive dissonance. When a tru-believer's belief/worldview is challenged they typically resort to reality rejection. The response of a mind to cognitive dissonance is sometimes word salad. Sometimes "But what about..." If asked 5 minutes later your interlocutor will be unable to even state your position; he has forgotten it.

Admittedly the vaccines have not even been in existence long enough to know anything about long-term risk or effectiveness. There are a number of treatment protocols so the death rate of delta is very low. The vaccinated lower death-rate than the unvaccinated who get delta. If ADE (antibody-dependent enhancement) applies (most virologists think not but some do*) that would be of the most serious consequence.

I love posts like this. Tru-believer crap... and then we don't know much... and then a bunch of bullshit. The death rate was lower because the vaccine IS effective and we got as many elderly people immunized as would take it!

We know the vaccine prevented contracting the virus, at least Alpha, for some period of time. It appears boosters regain the ability to prevent contracting Delta. We know negative consequences of the vaccine are at expected very low levels. "Long term consequences" is the new "Long form birth certificate".

 

[George S]

This seems to me to be a recognition of cognitive dissonance. When a tru-believer's belief/worldview is challenged they typically resort to reality rejection. The response of a mind to cognitive dissonance is sometimes word salad. Sometimes "But what about..." If asked 5 minutes later your interlocutor will be unable to even state your position; he has forgotten it.

Admittedly the vaccines have not even been in existence long enough to know anything about long-term risk or effectiveness. There are a number of treatment protocols so the death rate of delta is very low. The vaccinated lower death-rate than the unvaccinated who get delta. If ADE (antibody-dependent enhancement) applies (most virologists think not but some do*) that would be of the most serious consequence.

I love posts like this. Tru-believer crap... and then we don't know much... and then a bunch of bullshit. The death rate was lower because the vaccine IS effective and we got as many elderly people immunized as would take it!

We know the vaccine prevented contracting the virus, at least Alpha, for some period of time. It appears boosters regain the ability to prevent contracting Delta. We know negative consequences of the vaccine are at expected very low levels. "Long term consequences" is the new "Long form birth certificate".

I made a risk-based evaluation for myself and got the Pfizer jab. I, myself, personally downgraded long-term consequences. Being 78 I think the protection was worth the risk. YMMV.

 

[bilby]

This seems to me to be a recognition of cognitive dissonance. When a tru-believer's belief/worldview is challenged they typically resort to reality rejection. The response of a mind to cognitive dissonance is sometimes word salad. Sometimes "But what about..." If asked 5 minutes later your interlocutor will be unable to even state your position; he has forgotten it.

Admittedly the vaccines have not even been in existence long enough to know anything about long-term risk or effectiveness. There are a number of treatment protocols so the death rate of delta is very low. The vaccinated lower death-rate than the unvaccinated who get delta. If ADE (antibody-dependent enhancement) applies (most virologists think not but some do*) that would be of the most serious consequence.

I love posts like this. Tru-believer crap... and then we don't know much... and then a bunch of bullshit. The death rate was lower because the vaccine IS effective and we got as many elderly people immunized as would take it!

We know the vaccine prevented contracting the virus, at least Alpha, for some period of time. It appears boosters regain the ability to prevent contracting Delta. We know negative consequences of the vaccine are at expected very low levels. "Long term consequences" is the new "Long form birth certificate".

I made a risk-based evaluation for myself and got the Pfizer jab. I, myself, personally downgraded long-term consequences. Being 78 I think the protection was worth the risk. YMMV.

If you had been 28, the protection would have been worth the risk.

The risk of adverse effects from the vaccine is minuscule. The risk of adverse effects from Covid infection in the unvaccinated is sizable.

It's not even close; The disease is between a hundred thousand and a million times more likely to inflict a given level of harm (up to and including death) as the worst of the currently approved vaccines.

It's an irrefutable fact that any person without a history of anaphylactic response to the ingredients of the vaccine is at vastly greater risk if they don't get it, than if they do. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. Just as it's not a matter of opinion whether it's safer to jump off the roof or to take the stairs.

People who insist on jumping, because it's their right to choose, belong in secure psychiatric accommodation, not on Fox News encouraging others to make the same "choice".

That you even considered it necessary to say that you made a risk-based evaluation is crazy. Would you use a similar disclaimer about your choice not to leap from a roof rather than use the stairs? Do you seriously imagine that other people might make a similar evaluation, and correctly reach the opposite conclusion? "I took the stairs, but YMMV".

 

[steve_bank]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

There are only a small number of vaccination techniques. New flu vaccines come out every year and there is a percentage of people who have some degree of reactions.

From regional reporting the increase in deaths from Delta is not a lot higher, but that is nit the issue if you actually pay attention to the news.

The number of hospitalizations are back up in the PNW resulting in cancelations of non critical surgery, there are not enough beds to go around. If this continues unabated the health care system is in danger of collapse. Emergency rooms are using tents to handle the increases.

Dory Munson a local conservative radio show host in the begging used to say what is the big deal it is just like the flu.

The cognitive dissonance is in tho conservatives. States with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates.
Here regionally it is growing in young kids. The first child death from COVID in Seattle has been reported.

As to 'treatments what would they be George?

Liquid oxygen is becoming critically short for ventilators.

 

[repoman]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

There are only a small number of vaccination techniques. New flu vaccines come out every year and there is a percentage of people who have some degree of reactions.

From regional reporting the increase in deaths from Delta is not a lot higher, but that is nit the issue if you actually pay attention to the news.

The number of hospitalizations are back up in the PNW resulting in cancelations of non critical surgery, there are not enough beds to go around. If this continues unabated the health care system is in danger of collapse. Emergency rooms are using tents to handle the increases.

Dory Munson a local conservative radio show host in the begging used to say what is the big deal it is just like the flu.

The cognitive dissonance is in tho conservatives. States with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates.
Here regionally it is growing in young kids. The first child death from COVID in Seattle has been reported.

As to 'treatments what would they be George?

Liquid oxygen is becoming critically short for ventilators.

The King County Dashboard shows 20 some people hospitalized now. How is that putting a massive strain on beds?

https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/daily-summary.aspx

 

[bilby]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

There are only a small number of vaccination techniques. New flu vaccines come out every year and there is a percentage of people who have some degree of reactions.

From regional reporting the increase in deaths from Delta is not a lot higher, but that is nit the issue if you actually pay attention to the news.

The number of hospitalizations are back up in the PNW resulting in cancelations of non critical surgery, there are not enough beds to go around. If this continues unabated the health care system is in danger of collapse. Emergency rooms are using tents to handle the increases.

Dory Munson a local conservative radio show host in the begging used to say what is the big deal it is just like the flu.

The cognitive dissonance is in tho conservatives. States with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates.
Here regionally it is growing in young kids. The first child death from COVID in Seattle has been reported.

As to 'treatments what would they be George?

Liquid oxygen is becoming critically short for ventilators.

The King County Dashboard shows 20 some people hospitalized now. How is that putting a massive strain on beds?

https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/daily-summary.aspx

That link shows over 200 hospitalised in the last 14 days.

I am guessing that you are misinterpreting the daily new hospitalisations figure as being the total number of beds currently occupied.

Obviously people spend well over a week, on average, in hospital once admitted.

Really, I cannot stress enough that you need to stop trying to interpret data that you are not competent to comprehend.

 

[steve_bank]

KOMO,KIRO,KING5 and KUOW all report the same on the region and PNW in general. Death rates are up marginally but hospitalizations are up. Oregon is back to a mask mandate. The Washington transmission factor is back to >1.

I would not go by King County web sites on anything right now.

If you are a Dory Munson fan then things are just fine in the Puget Sound area.


https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/COVID19/DataDashboard

Total state hospitalizations 31,106 cases 567,104
King County 7,379 hospitalizations cases 136,242

The most important numbers are the hospitalization rates per week.

Areas with smaller hospital capacities are being overwhelmed. That is the current reporting..

Oregon is having problems. Florida.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/oregon/

The case plot clearly shows the pervious and current wave which looks worse than the oters.

Maybe we should ban vaccinations and let nature sort it all out.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

Sounds to me like he is taking shots at anti-vaxxers. Maybe I'm just thick.

 

[steve_bank]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

Sounds to me like he is taking shots at anti-vaxxers. Maybe I'm just thick.

I have my moments.

 

[fromderinside]

That you even considered it necessary to say that you made a risk-based evaluation is crazy. Would you use a similar disclaimer about your choice not to leap from a roof rather than use the stairs? Do you seriously imagine that other people might make a similar evaluation, and correctly reach the opposite conclusion? "I took the stairs, but YMMV".

I'm thinking most who would make the same comment about risk assessment given how little people know about such as generational disease processes. They know so little because such happens very seldom and most of what is learned within events is washed out over the decades between events. Knowledge is very limited. So radical analyses become rational to those desperate for answers.

I vote not crazy, just scared. Bilby, I've met and talked with George S. Not crazy at all. Not demented at all. Probably scared shitless given he's only two years behind me on the way out the door and I'm living like a hermit in a region of human near vacuum.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

Sounds to me like he is taking shots at anti-vaxxers. Maybe I'm just thick.

GeorgeS's post is riddled with plenty of passive aggressive speak that really renders its actual intended meaning as unknowable, which is inline with most of GeorgeS's postings.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This seems to me to be a recognition of cognitive dissonance. When a tru-believer's belief/worldview is challenged they typically resort to reality rejection. The response of a mind to cognitive dissonance is sometimes word salad. Sometimes "But what about..." If asked 5 minutes later your interlocutor will be unable to even state your position; he has forgotten it.

Admittedly the vaccines have not even been in existence long enough to know anything about long-term risk or effectiveness. There are a number of treatment protocols so the death rate of delta is very low. The vaccinated lower death-rate than the unvaccinated who get delta. If ADE (antibody-dependent enhancement) applies (most virologists think not but some do*) that would be of the most serious consequence.

I love posts like this. Tru-believer crap... and then we don't know much... and then a bunch of bullshit. The death rate was lower because the vaccine IS effective and we got as many elderly people immunized as would take it!

We know the vaccine prevented contracting the virus, at least Alpha, for some period of time. It appears boosters regain the ability to prevent contracting Delta. We know negative consequences of the vaccine are at expected very low levels. "Long term consequences" is the new "Long form birth certificate".

I made a risk-based evaluation for myself and got the Pfizer jab. I, myself, personally downgraded long-term consequences. Being 78 I think the protection was worth the risk. YMMV.

Chances of dying from Covid are several magnitudes higher than dying from the vaccine.

Chances of getting seriously ill from Covid are magnitudes higher than getting seriously ill from the vaccine.

Not getting the vaccine has Joffrey'd the United States because those people think they understand math and science. Until we know the booster prevents infection, we should be no where near as open as we are.

 

[George S]

George S's post could be taken off any pseudoscience platform. Standard pseudo science rhetoric.

Sounds to me like he is taking shots at anti-vaxxers. Maybe I'm just thick.

GeorgeS's post is riddled with plenty of passive aggressive speak that really renders its actual intended meaning as unknowable, which is inline with most of GeorgeS's postings.

I was emphasizing that in a free society medical decisions are a doctor-patient thing. I don't trust governments. So I was, as you say, taking shots at anti-vaxxers who do so for the wrong reasons. In particular under a "belief in" mode. I believe that each individual anti-vaxxer and pro-vaxxer should work with their doctor. Evaluate the risks yourself.

I first acknowledged that there are inherent dangers in taking a drug in which long-term effects are simply unknown. I know there are. I worked for The Upjohn Company (now Pfizer) epidemiologists. I was familiar with more than just the thalidomide incident. I recognized that ADE could possibly apply although unlikely.

You are not I. My reasons for getting the jab are applicable to me. My reasons for getting shingles, flu and tetanus vaccines are mine. Please make the best-informed decision you can. If you are young, be well aware that there is an unknown here. Being 78 I am not concerned when "long-term" means 15 years (my insurance life-expectancy). Younger people may be comparing two very low risks. Almost no deaths under 30 compared with an unknown (very likely very low) chance of long-term danger.

In short, do not be an anti-vaxxer with religious fervor nor a pro-vaxxer because some government advises so. No government agency can be believed.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
And, as long as I'm ranting epidemiologists care about data, not patients. An epidemiologist is the exactly wrong kind of doctor to take advice from. The vax spokesman should be a practicing ER physician.
There is a rapid home-test available. Epidemiologists reject its use because they can't collect data. Practicing physicians might well advise that these "crummy" tests be used. If they show positive they are cheap enough that taking another spit test in the next minute is inexpensive (< $1). If those who test negative (but a false negative, crummy test) just live normally and are possibly infecting others for 1 day. On the second day false negatives drop to single digits. At this point the patient would wear a mask to the ER, see a physician and decide what to do next. There are a variety of protocols which have shown (anecdotally) to be effective treatments when used early.

Epidemiology is science. The practice of medicine is not. The former is concerned with RCT results, the latter is not concerned with statistics but with the individual patient before them and with reports of what other physicians have reported with similar patients.
_________________
Thanks FDI for the vote of sanity; I have my doubts.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

GeorgeS's post is riddled with plenty of passive aggressive speak that really renders its actual intended meaning as unknowable, which is inline with most of GeorgeS's postings.

I was emphasizing that in a free society medical decisions are a doctor-patient thing.

Funny, because you said you yourself, not your doctor came to the conclusion to get vaccinated because of your age which gets rid of the worries of *echo* long-form birth certificate..../echo I mean *echo* long-term complications*... nicely and passive aggressively feeding into the narrative that there is a legit fear of long term complications with the vaccine.

I don't trust governments.

I don't trust people either. I trust doctors on medical issues.

So I was, as you say, taking shots at anti-vaxxers who do so for the wrong reasons.

HAW! More passive aggressive bullshit.

In particular under a "belief in" mode. I believe that each individual anti-vaxxer and pro-vaxxer should work with their doctor. Evaluate the risks yourself.

In general, most people aren't mentally capable of calc'ing risk.

Flashing RR lights.... hmm... what is the risk of getting hit if I try to go through while flashing? The train looks like it is moving 34 mph... it is roughly 821 feet away... carry the pi... *smash!!!*

Luckily, a bunch of engineers created these RR lights to let us know to FUCKING STOP!

Much like you take a FUCKING VACCINE during a pandemic after it has cleared Stage 3 trials with virtually no issues at all, and an astonishing out of box effectiveness rate, as per those Medical professionals I mentioned earlier. Sure, talking to your doctor isn't a bad thing. He is a professional as well. Anti-vaxxers aren't talking to their doctors. They are crossing the RR with the gates down because they think they are smarter than everyone else. And then you have the people who fear the vaccine for historical reasons.

I first acknowledged that there are inherent dangers in taking a drug in which long-term effects are simply unknown. I know there are. I worked for The Upjohn Company (now Pfizer) epidemiologists. I was familiar with more than just the thalidomide incident. I recognized that ADE could possibly apply although unlikely.

Unlikely, yet you bring that shit up.

You are not I. My reasons for getting the jab are applicable to me. My reasons for getting shingles, flu and tetanus vaccines are mine.

You getting Shingles doesn't impact my life. People not getting the Covid-19 Vaccine have directly impacted my life and gotten others killed. These things are not equivalent.

Please make the best-informed decision you can. If you are young, be well aware that there is an unknown here.

Please stop muddling the conversation with bullshit. The risk of death from vaccine is several magnitudes lower than dying of Covid. Getting seriously ill magnitudes lower than Covid-19. This is nothing less than a RR crossing with flashing lights and a blaring train horn . Yet, you feel it necessary to meddle and muddle. You know, you might be able to make it before the train gets here.

 

[bilby]

I don't give crap the first how little you trust governments. If you trust your 'own research' more than you trust theirs, you're a fucking idiot.

 

[southernhybrid]

Should we be concerned about MU?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/03/covid-delta-variant-live-updates/

A coronavirus variant known as mu — which was designated by the World Health Organization as a “variant of interest” earlier this week — is not an “immediate threat” to the United States, according to Anthony S. Fauci, the country’s top infectious-disease expert.
Fauci told a news briefing Thursday that the variant was “not at all even close to being dominant,” as the delta variant remains the cause of over 99 percent of cases in the country. But he added, “We’re keeping a very close eye on it.”
The WHO says the mu variant has “a constellation of mutations that indicate potential properties of immune escape.” But it says further studies are needed to find out whether the variant reported in the United States, Japan, Ecuador and parts of Europe will be resistant to coronavirus vaccines.

The three individuals who tested positive for the mu variant traveled from Mexico in May, the United States in June and Colombia in July, officials said.
The WHO said in a statement this week that the “mu variant has a constellation of mutations that indicate potential properties of immune escape,” so it is unclear whether it will be resistant to authorized coronavirus vaccines.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The King County Dashboard shows 20 some people hospitalized now. How is that putting a massive strain on beds?

https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/daily-summary.aspx

That data only makes sense if it's new hospitalizations and even then it's a bit strange--from the data at the top of the dashboard we can see 1/4 of the people who go into the hospital die, but the graphs at the bottom aren't showing 4x the hospitalizations as deaths. Besides, the critical resource isn't hospital beds, it's ICU beds.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't give crap the first how little you trust governments. If you trust your 'own research' more than you trust theirs, you're a fucking idiot.

Well, I don't trust the CDC these days--because they've always been downplaying it! Of course they did so under His Flatulence but even with him gone they didn't acknowledge the threats variants posed until Delta blew up.

 

[steve_bank]

Today's regional report in the news.

In Washington 34% of ICU beds are COVID cases, and the number is rising.

While Wash in general is not in crisis yet, some places in Wash are overwhelmed.

Adding to all that the report is in Wash there is a growing shortage of hospital nurses. People are quitting and retiring early from getting beat with overwork since the COVID start, some are going into other areas.

What did you expect the CDC to do, running around screaming run for the hills? If you expecd an absolute straight line of a response with no gaffs and absolute correctness all the time and no confusion then you expect too much.

The CDC is not independent of govt. Obama deb veloped a pandemic emergency plan, but Trump ignored it.

It took time for the CDC to figure out with reasonable certainty what was going on. It takes time for information to filter through.

Hind sight is always 20/20.