"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

[Angry Floof]

I ran across this public session. https://tv.gab.com/channel/standonp...tire-covid-narrative-611132777b022aa59dd65777 This doctor's claim is that the summer infection growth (which never happens) is directly caused by vaccination. He also claims his treating patients (too few to be statistically significant) with ivermectin, vitamin D and zinc has been effective without a single hospitalization.
<rant> Why isn't everyone on the same page? Could this one guy be right? He's surely confident.</rant>

If the number he's basing that on is statistically insignificant, then he should not be making the claim.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I ran across this public session. https://tv.gab.com/channel/standonp...tire-covid-narrative-611132777b022aa59dd65777 This doctor's claim is that the summer infection growth (which never happens) is directly caused by vaccination.

So why did the cases grow last summer, before we had a vaccine?

He also claims his treating patients (too few to be statistically significant) with ivermectin, vitamin D and zinc has been effective without a single hospitalization.

Zinc and Vitamin D... seriously?! Here... have a multi-vitamin, you'll be fine.

<rant> Why isn't everyone on the same page? Could this one guy be right? He's surely confident.</rant>

The stupidity is so endemic, I have no idea if you are being serious or not.

 

[Gun Nut]

a coworker told me that doctors around the world are saying covid is totally exaggerated.. no one dies from it - its a lie.... I asked him what his resource was for covid related medical info and he told me "American Frontline Doctors". I looked it up and was horrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors

I happen to be in a position where I am contributing to this guy's professional development and ultimately I may be expected to have a position under me he is expected to fill.
The thing is, rational and critical thinking is NECESSARY for this job. Seeing through bullshit and knowing the difference between evidence and crap is a basic requirement for the job. How can I ever get this guy up to speed if "American Frontline Doctors", to him, is a reliable source of medical information? If the same "rigor" is applied to what he would be expected to do for work, he will never make it.

Maybe this needs its own thread

 

[Playball40]

a coworker told me that doctors around the world are saying covid is totally exaggerated.. no one dies from it - its a lie.... I asked him what his resource was for covid related medical info and he told me "American Frontline Doctors". I looked it up and was horrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors

I happen to be in a position where I am contributing to this guy's professional development and ultimately I may be expected to have a position under me he is expected to fill.
The thing is, rational and critical thinking is NECESSARY for this job. Seeing through bullshit and knowing the difference between evidence and crap is a basic requirement for the job. How can I ever get this guy up to speed if "American Frontline Doctors", to him, is a reliable source of medical information? If the same "rigor" is applied to what he would be expected to do for work, he will never make it.

Maybe this needs its own thread

Ugh, I would NOT want to be in your position at all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

a coworker told me that doctors around the world are saying covid is totally exaggerated.. no one dies from it - its a lie.... I asked him what his resource was for covid related medical info and he told me "American Frontline Doctors". I looked it up and was horrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors

I happen to be in a position where I am contributing to this guy's professional development and ultimately I may be expected to have a position under me he is expected to fill.
The thing is, rational and critical thinking is NECESSARY for this job. Seeing through bullshit and knowing the difference between evidence and crap is a basic requirement for the job. How can I ever get this guy up to speed if "American Frontline Doctors", to him, is a reliable source of medical information? If the same "rigor" is applied to what he would be expected to do for work, he will never make it.

Maybe this needs its own thread

It seems to me that the guy has demonstrated that he's not suitable for the position.

 

[Keith&Co.]

a coworker told me that doctors around the world are saying covid is totally exaggerated.. no one dies from it - its a lie.... I asked him what his resource was for covid related medical info and he told me "American Frontline Doctors". I looked it up and was horrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors

I happen to be in a position where I am contributing to this guy's professional development and ultimately I may be expected to have a position under me he is expected to fill.
The thing is, rational and critical thinking is NECESSARY for this job. Seeing through bullshit and knowing the difference between evidence and crap is a basic requirement for the job. How can I ever get this guy up to speed if "American Frontline Doctors", to him, is a reliable source of medical information? If the same "rigor" is applied to what he would be expected to do for work, he will never make it.

Maybe this needs its own thread

I guess the question is if he's UNABLE to think, apply rigor, weigh inputs, or if he chooses to turn the ability off in specific, limited applications. Like figuring out there's no Santa Claus, but spending good money to go on a Bigfoot hunt.

Is there a way to test it?
In my job, there's just oodles of documented situations where people had enough facts before them but still made decisions that cost time, money, sometimes lives. Or got damn close to doing so before someone called bullshit. I would probably create a test from such situations to ask 'how would YOU have reacted?'

 

[southernhybrid]

a coworker told me that doctors around the world are saying covid is totally exaggerated.. no one dies from it - its a lie.... I asked him what his resource was for covid related medical info and he told me "American Frontline Doctors". I looked it up and was horrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors

I happen to be in a position where I am contributing to this guy's professional development and ultimately I may be expected to have a position under me he is expected to fill.
The thing is, rational and critical thinking is NECESSARY for this job. Seeing through bullshit and knowing the difference between evidence and crap is a basic requirement for the job. How can I ever get this guy up to speed if "American Frontline Doctors", to him, is a reliable source of medical information? If the same "rigor" is applied to what he would be expected to do for work, he will never make it.

Maybe this needs its own thread

I don't have an answer for you, but sadly, there are lots of nurses and even some physicians who believe similar things. Both of those professions require good critical thinking skills. At least that's my strong belief as a retired RN. I've never seen so much misinformation being spread and accepted as truth by so many people who I once thought were intelligent and able to weed out bullshit.

A nurse who I've been friendly with over the past few years now has COVID and I think I upset her yesterday when I gently implied that once she is well, she should get vaccinated as it's very possible to become reinfected. I've heard stories of COVID patients near death or in critical care units still denying that COVID is a serious disease or that it's a hoax and they have something else.

Nurses in my town have been marching against the local hospital's vaccine mandate. WTF!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I pull out a container bleach and tell him to inject it.

They'll likely object. And you can say, the exact same experts that say you shouldn't inject bleach are saying Covid-19 is killing millions around the globe.

 

[Swammerdami]

... Of course, you don't want to take any NSAID medicine before the vaccination, but you can resume them afterwards.....

My ignorance is showing. Aspirin — an NSAID iiuc — is the (most important?) daily drug I take (in 81 mg dose) to reduce the risk of heart attack. What should I do for vaccine day?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

... Of course, you don't want to take any NSAID medicine before the vaccination, but you can resume them afterwards.....

My ignorance is showing. Aspirin — an NSAID iiuc — is the (most important?) daily drug I take (in 81 mg dose) to reduce the risk of heart attack. What should I do for vaccine day?

I'd ask a doctor. But here's a relative discussion. Basically the fact that NSAIDs dampen the immune response there is a concern that it may affect the desired antibody response.


COVID-19 Vaccine and Pain Relievers: What to Know

 

[repoman]

Good clinical case study about cyproheptadine for treating serious cases of covid. I think this should be discussed by smarter people than me

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2050313X211032089

While a majority of the focus in coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) has been on the common and often fatal lung disease, reports of neurologic dysfunction have been increasing since the pandemic began.1,2 The spectrum of neurologic disease has been broad, from encephalopathy to thromboembolic disease,1,2 among a series of other pathologic mechanisms described by others.3–12 While these reports have not described serotonin syndrome-like manifestations per se, the evidence is mounting in regard to the presence of elevated plasma serotonin levels in COVID-19 patients,13,14 both in severe and non-severe disease, thought to be a result of an intense degree of platelet activation and serotonin liberation from activated platelets due to severe acute respiratory distress syndrome 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection.13,15,16 Clinically, in two case series, more than 60% of severe COVID-19 subjects exhibited hyperreflexia or myoclonus,17,18 signs relatively specific for serotonin toxicity, occurring at a high enough rate in severe COVID-19 that is unaccountable for by pre-existing use of serotonergic medication. In addition, diarrhea of COVID-19 has also been attributed to an elevated plasma serotonin state.19

Serotonin toxicity is an increasingly recognized condition that carries a significant risk of morbidity and mortality if left undiagnosed and untreated. Studies prior to COVID-19 showed that a sizable portion of delirium encountered in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) could be attributed to unrecognized serotonin toxicity, with culprits including fentanyl, among other medications.20 Given these lines of biochemical and clinical evidence, it is possible that unrecognized serotonin toxicity may be more frequently present in COVID-19 and may contribute significantly to morbidity and mortality.

The diagnosis of serotonin toxicity is one of exclusion and requires a thorough history, identification of offending medication(s), and fulfillment of established diagnostic criteria (Table 1).21,22 We recently encountered two critically ill COVID-19 patients who met the clinical criteria for serotonin syndrome, but neither had identifiable provoking serotonergic medication use. Both patients had extensive evaluations and both clinically improved with supportive care and additional treatment that included serotonin receptor (5HT-2A) antagonism with cyproheptadine.

"could be attributed to unrecognized serotonin toxicity, with culprits including fentanyl" which was used in ventilation... Woah that is terribly ironic. Sad as hell. Not saying this like a peanut gallery asshole, it was just something that was not known at the time. If I had made something of my life and been a doctor I probably would also have used fentanyl when intubating a patient.

Note, I listened to a long podcast about this topic and the doctor who had his parents both sick with mild/moderate covid did NOT give them cyproheptadine as it was not warranted by their condition. He was adamant that is was not a preventative or a do it yourself when seriously ill, but that doctors should be aware of serotonin toxicity and severe covid.

 

[bilby]

... I think this should be discussed by smarter people than me ...

I wholeheartedly agree.

And yet, here you are.

Again.

 

[steve_bank]

I know little about biochemistry, but I go with the majority of those who do.

The problem with what will be seen as a cure is the disincentive to get vaccinated.

Why bother with a mask and calcination if I can just take a pill if if I get sick.

I am hearing statements from unions and organizations in the region to the effect 'I am an Amirian and nobody is going to tell me what to do'. Even in health care unions and organizations.

 

[repoman]

I know little about biochemistry, but I go with the majority of those who do.

The problem with what will be seen as a cure is the disincentive to get vaccinated.

Why bother with a mask and calcination if I can just take a pill if if I get sick.

I am hearing statements from unions and organizations in the region to the effect 'I am an Amirian and nobody is going to tell me what to do'. Even in health care unions and organizations.

Steve, you should do a once over on your posts, I understand everything you are saying I think though.

Anyway, this logic of not discussing (me or anyone, even if they have the skills and background) what may be a key insight that could save lives in this crisis is not good.

The case study has zero connection to me (Saint Bilby please have mercy on me) bringing it up and should be read irregardless. Or wait five years from now when it doesn't matter anymore to read a peer reviewed retrospective about this exact topic.

Talking about not using seatbelts because of airbags is silly. So is not talking about how great airbags are because you think people will say, hey screw seatbelts then. Same for treatment.

If I need to be ventilated that I will use this exact clinical trial to say no to a pain killer that feeds into serotonin syndrome by itself like fentanyl does.

You think busy as hell doctors have the time to read these papers NOW when it matters? Unfortunately no.

 

[repoman]

... I think this should be discussed by smarter people than me ...

I wholeheartedly agree.

And yet, here you are.

Again.

Read it, then call me any insult you like, I don't care.

 

[steve_bank]

I know little about biochemistry, but I go with the majority of those who do.

The problem with what will be seen as a cure is the disincentive to get vaccinated.

Why bother with a mask and calcination if I can just take a pill if if I get sick.

I am hearing statements from unions and organizations in the region to the effect 'I am an Amirian and nobody is going to tell me what to do'. Even in health care unions and organizations.

Steve, you should do a once over on your posts, I understand everything you are saying I think though.

Anyway, this logic of not discussing (me or anyone, even if they have the skills and background) what may be a key insight that could save lives in this crisis is not good.

The case study has zero connection to me (Saint Bilby please have mercy on me) bringing it up and should be read irregardless. Or wait five years from now when it doesn't matter anymore to read a peer reviewed retrospective about this exact topic.

Talking about not using seatbelts because of airbags is silly. So is not talking about how great airbags are because you think people will say, hey screw seatbelts then. Same for treatment.

If I need to be ventilated that I will use this exact clinical trial to say no to a pain killer that feeds into serotonin syndrome by itself like fentanyl does.

You think busy as hell doctors have the time to read these papers NOW when it matters? Unfortunately no.

I have had Bilby on ignore for a long time. Tends to resort to insults and ad homs.

Are you paying attention to the news? For a significant percentage of our American population they just do not give a shit about anything other then individuality.

It In the Seattle regino and across the country it is teachers, firefighters, and health care workers who are saying they would rather loose their jobs than wear a mask or get vaccinated.

State governors are tring to prevent schools from mandating masks and vaccines.

From the report I heard on the news the treatment was not found effective on the first strains and it looks effective against the Delta variant.

Unless we get higher levels of vaccinations there will inevitably be more variants.

Here in the PNW totalizations are worse than ever.


The treatment is pissing in the wind. It is Darwinian.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I know little about biochemistry, but I go with the majority of those who do.

The problem with what will be seen as a cure is the disincentive to get vaccinated.

There is a bit of truth here, but I think the full on truth is that some people will not get the vaccine due to the implied low likelihood of them dying from Covid-19 verses the unknown that is the vaccine. So we don't even need a treatment for people to avoid the vaccine because they'll avoid it just as plenty of people avoid measles vaccines because... bad at math and science.

When people aren't dying from something, the visible risk and threat fades. Most people haven't been killed by Covid-19, haven't been affected by the pauses in hospitals because of being overrun, so the threat is theoretical to them, while the threat of a vaccine is 100% certainty. IE, the perceived risk is much higher because a person can only get sick of Covid-19 if they get it, while the risk of getting harmed by the vaccine is 100% because they have definitely gotten the vaccine. I'm going to call that Higgin's Law of The False Certainty of Risk. The math and science fail on that perception, but people are bad at math and science. So you end up with people like the woman coming back from the hospital after having Covid-19 to find her husband dead of Covid... because they wanted to "wait" for the vaccine. They are scared to death of the vaccine. This is of course, ignoring the partisan motherfuckers.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I know little about biochemistry, but I go with the majority of those who do.

The problem with what will be seen as a cure is the disincentive to get vaccinated.

There is a bit of truth here, but I think the full on truth is that some people will not get the vaccine due to the implied low likelihood of them dying from Covid-19 verses the unknown that is the vaccine. So we don't even need a treatment for people to avoid the vaccine because they'll avoid it just as plenty of people avoid measles vaccines because... bad at math and science.

When people aren't dying from something, the visible risk and threat fades. Most people haven't been killed by Covid-19, haven't been affected by the pauses in hospitals because of being overrun, so the threat is theoretical to them, while the threat of a vaccine is 100% certainty. IE, the perceived risk is much higher because a person can only get sick of Covid-19 if they get it, while the risk of getting harmed by the vaccine is 100% because they have definitely gotten the vaccine. I'm going to call that Higgin's Law of The False Certainty of Risk. The math and science fail on that perception, but people are bad at math and science. So you end up with people like the woman coming back from the hospital after having Covid-19 to find her husband dead of Covid... because they wanted to "wait" for the vaccine. They are scared to death of the vaccine. This is of course, ignoring the partisan motherfuckers.

Which explains how easily it has become politicized. If one understands and accepts scientific knowledge one is okay with the vaccine. The right has shown itself to be anti-science, very likely out of fear. It's knowledge and language they do not understand, making the shift to some other rationalization both convenient and comfortable.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know little about biochemistry, but I go with the majority of those who do.

The problem with what will be seen as a cure is the disincentive to get vaccinated.

There is a bit of truth here, but I think the full on truth is that some people will not get the vaccine due to the implied low likelihood of them dying from Covid-19 verses the unknown that is the vaccine. So we don't even need a treatment for people to avoid the vaccine because they'll avoid it just as plenty of people avoid measles vaccines because... bad at math and science.

When people aren't dying from something, the visible risk and threat fades. Most people haven't been killed by Covid-19, haven't been affected by the pauses in hospitals because of being overrun, so the threat is theoretical to them, while the threat of a vaccine is 100% certainty. IE, the perceived risk is much higher because a person can only get sick of Covid-19 if they get it, while the risk of getting harmed by the vaccine is 100% because they have definitely gotten the vaccine. I'm going to call that Higgin's Law of The False Certainty of Risk. The math and science fail on that perception, but people are bad at math and science. So you end up with people like the woman coming back from the hospital after having Covid-19 to find her husband dead of Covid... because they wanted to "wait" for the vaccine. They are scared to death of the vaccine. This is of course, ignoring the partisan motherfuckers.

Which explains how easily it has become politicized. If one understands and accepts scientific knowledge one is okay with the vaccine. The right has shown itself to be anti-science, very likely out of fear. It's knowledge and language they do not understand, making the shift to some other rationalization both convenient and comfortable.

Well, when knowledge and language impugn your worldview as false and you are too much of a lazy bastard to re-imagine a whole new world view, what else can you do but reject reality?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Which explains how easily it has become politicized. If one understands and accepts scientific knowledge one is okay with the vaccine. The right has shown itself to be anti-science, very likely out of fear. It's knowledge and language they do not understand, making the shift to some other rationalization both convenient and comfortable.

Well, when knowledge and language impugn your worldview as false and you are too much of a lazy bastard to re-imagine a whole new world view, what else can you do but reject reality?

As freshmen we had to participate as guineau pigs in three psychology sessions. The present would be a great time to do that. I'm sure much of the study would be concerning the present political situation wrt covid.