Democrats 2020

[PyramidHead]

You do realize that despite what Trump thinks, the Presidency isn't​ a monarchy and just because Sanders has something he wants to do, doesn't mean it'll happen without Congress?

That's a non sequitur. The professional/managerial/ownerhship class doesn't have to assume Bernie will push his agenda through on the first day in order to regard him as a threat to their dominance of society and politics.

Yea, again the dems can't win without the "professional/managerial/ownership" voters. The white non-college working class voters mostly vote republican. They are motivated by their religion and guns.

Will you vote for Trump and/or stay home if Bernie is the nominee yes or no

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You do realize that despite what Trump thinks, the Presidency isn't​ a monarchy and just because Sanders has something he wants to do, doesn't mean it'll happen without Congress?

That's a non sequitur.

No it isn't. It is the pragmatic reality of living in a democracy where all of the elected Democrats don't live in districts as safe as found in Massachusetts.

The professional/managerial/ownerhship class doesn't have to assume Bernie will push his agenda through on the first day in order to regard him as a threat to their dominance of society and politics.

Sanders is hardly a threat. The point is, he won't have a Congress that will push through his agenda. Heck, Trump had the majority in the House and Senate and still couldn't overturn the ACA, something the right-wing has been bitching about since 2009.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yea, again the dems can't win without the "professional/managerial/ownership" voters. The white non-college working class voters mostly vote republican. They are motivated by their religion and guns.

Will you vote for Trump and/or stay home if Bernie is the nominee yes or no

For fuck sakes, that is a dumb post. I think it is well established that short of Williamson being on the ticket, the Democrat is getting the vote from the liberals and moderates here.

 

[PyramidHead]

No it isn't. It is the pragmatic reality of living in a democracy where all of the elected Democrats don't live in districts as safe as found in Massachusetts.

The professional/managerial/ownerhship class doesn't have to assume Bernie will push his agenda through on the first day in order to regard him as a threat to their dominance of society and politics.

Sanders is hardly a threat. The point is, he won't have a Congress that will push through his agenda. Heck, Trump had the majority in the House and Senate and still couldn't overturn the ACA, something the right-wing has been bitching about since 2009.

It's a non sequitur because it doesn't have anything to do with what's being discussed, as Gospel's analogy illustrates. People who don't want to see the ACA overturned will be against Trump, even if Trump can't overturn it singlehandedly (or even easily).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You do realize that despite what Trump thinks, the Presidency isn't​ a monarchy and just because Sanders has something he wants to do, doesn't mean it'll happen without Congress?

But if you put bread, a jar of Peanut butter & Jelly in a room full of kids you increase the odds of a P&J sandwich being made.

Sanders should more concerned with making certain progs have a seat at the table. People seem to equate his election as meaning automatic UHC and no out of pocket public college education.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yea, again the dems can't win without the "professional/managerial/ownership" voters. The white non-college working class voters mostly vote republican. They are motivated by their religion and guns.

Will you vote for Trump and/or stay home if Bernie is the nominee yes or no

There's no doubt that I'll vote for Bernie if he is the nominee with the hope that his administration and the democratic congress can moderate his views.

 

[PyramidHead]

Yea, again the dems can't win without the "professional/managerial/ownership" voters. The white non-college working class voters mostly vote republican. They are motivated by their religion and guns.

Will you vote for Trump and/or stay home if Bernie is the nominee yes or no

For fuck sakes, that is a dumb post. I think it is well established that short of Williamson being on the ticket, the Democrat is getting the vote from the liberals and moderates here.

Then WE DON'T NEED TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO IS PALATABLE TO THE PROFESSIONAL/MANAGERIAL CLASS SINCE THEY WILL VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT. THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. GOD DAMN

 

[PyramidHead]

Yea, again the dems can't win without the "professional/managerial/ownership" voters. The white non-college working class voters mostly vote republican. They are motivated by their religion and guns.

Will you vote for Trump and/or stay home if Bernie is the nominee yes or no

There's no doubt that I'll vote for Bernie if he is the nominee with the hope that his administration and the democratic congress can moderate his views.

Then Bernie doesn't need to do anything differently to appeal to you or any other moderate Democrat, case closed.

 

[Harry Bosch]

There's no doubt that I'll vote for Bernie if he is the nominee with the hope that his administration and the democratic congress can moderate his views.

Then Bernie doesn't need to do anything differently to appeal to you or any other moderate Democrat, case closed.

Not sure that I understand your point. I'll vote for the democratic candidate. But I'm a moderate and prefer someone who is more business friendly than Bernie or Warren.

 

[Harry Bosch]

For fuck sakes, that is a dumb post. I think it is well established that short of Williamson being on the ticket, the Democrat is getting the vote from the liberals and moderates here.

Then WE DON'T NEED TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO IS PALATABLE TO THE PROFESSIONAL/MANAGERIAL CLASS SINCE THEY WILL VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT. THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. GOD DAMN

I understand your point now. Unfortunately, there are more moderates than just I! I suspect that there will be many people in the "professional managerial class who will vote republican or third party if the democratic candidate is deemed to unfriendly to business and commerce. It's the economy stupid!

 

[PyramidHead]

There's no doubt that I'll vote for Bernie if he is the nominee with the hope that his administration and the democratic congress can moderate his views.

Then Bernie doesn't need to do anything differently to appeal to you or any other moderate Democrat, case closed.

Not sure that I understand your point. I'll vote for the democratic candidate. But I'm a moderate and prefer someone who is more business friendly than Bernie or Warren.

Your original criticism is that Sanders did not appeal to a broader base because he only appeals to progressives, not moderates. You have now conceded that all a candidate has to do to appeal to a moderate is to be a Democrat running for President, which Sanders is. In other words, if Sanders is the nominee, ALL MODERATE DEMOCRATS will vote for him because they will vote blue no matter who. Progressives, on the other hand, may only vote for a progressive candidate. So if you care about having a Democrat in the White House, then you should back Sanders because he in fact DOES have the broadest base, because he appeals to the one faction of the party that has a risk of sitting out the election if they aren't inspired to vote.

 

[PyramidHead]

For fuck sakes, that is a dumb post. I think it is well established that short of Williamson being on the ticket, the Democrat is getting the vote from the liberals and moderates here.

Then WE DON'T NEED TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO IS PALATABLE TO THE PROFESSIONAL/MANAGERIAL CLASS SINCE THEY WILL VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT. THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. GOD DAMN

I understand your point now. Unfortunately, there are more moderates than just I! I suspect that there will be many people in the "professional managerial class who will vote republican or third party if the democratic candidate is deemed to unfriendly to business and commerce. It's the economy stupid!

If someone is willing to vote for Trump instead of Sanders because of money, they are not worth compromising with. Am I wrong?

 

[Harry Bosch]

I understand your point now. Unfortunately, there are more moderates than just I! I suspect that there will be many people in the "professional managerial class who will vote republican or third party if the democratic candidate is deemed to unfriendly to business and commerce. It's the economy stupid!

If someone is willing to vote for Trump instead of Sanders because of money, they are not worth compromising with. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Most people in the middle need to make a good living to support their family and have a retirement. I think that most Americans are good people who aren't against taxes to support a safety net. Most people want to see others succeed. But don't kid yourself, most people aren't going to sacrifice their freedoms and/or their economic way of life to achieve "justice". And this is why socialism is never voluntarily implemented.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For fuck sakes, that is a dumb post. I think it is well established that short of Williamson being on the ticket, the Democrat is getting the vote from the liberals and moderates here.

Then WE DON'T NEED TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO IS PALATABLE TO THE PROFESSIONAL/MANAGERIAL CLASS SINCE THEY WILL VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT. THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. GOD DAMN

Last time I checked, Harry Bosch has one vote.

 

[PyramidHead]

I understand your point now. Unfortunately, there are more moderates than just I! I suspect that there will be many people in the "professional managerial class who will vote republican or third party if the democratic candidate is deemed to unfriendly to business and commerce. It's the economy stupid!

If someone is willing to vote for Trump instead of Sanders because of money, they are not worth compromising with. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Most people in the middle need to make a good living to support their family and have a retirement.

And if such a person honestly believes that a second Trump administration will fight harder for those things than Bernie Fucking Sanders, they can be safely ignored on the grounds that they are probably missing the entirety of their brain. If there is really no way to convince them to vote for a public servant whose life's purpose is to help the working class over a real estate tycoon who hates immigrants, then we're fucked as a nation (and probably a species) anyway. That's just trivially true.

And this is why socialism is never voluntarily implemented.

There's the Republican talking point. Knew it was coming eventually. Keep fighting the good fight

 

[PyramidHead]

For fuck sakes, that is a dumb post. I think it is well established that short of Williamson being on the ticket, the Democrat is getting the vote from the liberals and moderates here.

Then WE DON'T NEED TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO IS PALATABLE TO THE PROFESSIONAL/MANAGERIAL CLASS SINCE THEY WILL VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT. THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. GOD DAMN

Last time I checked, Harry Bosch has one vote.

So does every other moderate Democrat, and therein lies the inescapable conclusion that they all must either vote for the Democratic nominee or (effectively) vote for Trump. There are two options, and only two, if you want to look at this from the Pundit Brain game-the-system strategic voting angle. One: Sanders is the nominee and the moderate Dems hold their noses and vote for him. Two: someone else is the nominee and the progressives/non-voters hold their noses and vote for him/her. Harry's answer is evidence that scenario one is a safer bet than scenario two. History is evidence of the same. Trump being so obviously worse than Sanders on every conceivable level except for treatment of rich people is evidence of the same. Even if you see all this as nothing more than a big fantasy football season, there's no way that all the other candidates dropping out and backing Bernie isn't an automatic blue White House next year, and you can't say that about any of the other candidates without making shit up, because Bernie is the one with the largest and most volatile base.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that they would ever do such a thing, because the Democratic party itself would rather lose to Trump than deal with Sanders as President, which is all the more reason to back him.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, you are wrong. Most people in the middle need to make a good living to support their family and have a retirement.

And if such a person honestly believes that a second Trump administration will fight harder for those things than Bernie Fucking Sanders, they can be safely ignored on the grounds that they are probably missing the entirety of their brain.

You do realize the moral conservatives voted for Trump. The fiscal conservatives voted for Trump. The hawks voted for Trump. And poor white people have been voting Republican for a couple decades now. And they'll vote for Trump over Sanders. And Independents will have to choose between the communist (he'll be labeled as a Mao Tse Tung wannabe) or the evil they know. Sanders won't win.

And all of this, even if Sanders does win, he won't be able to advance his platform as Congress passes the bills. And do you honestly think UHC could survive SCOTUS at this time?

 

[PyramidHead]

Yes, you are wrong. Most people in the middle need to make a good living to support their family and have a retirement.

And if such a person honestly believes that a second Trump administration will fight harder for those things than Bernie Fucking Sanders, they can be safely ignored on the grounds that they are probably missing the entirety of their brain.

You do realize the moral conservatives voted for Trump. The fiscal conservatives voted for Trump. The hawks voted for Trump. And poor white people have been voting Republican for a couple decades now. And they'll vote for Trump over Sanders. And Independents will have to choose between the communist (he'll be labeled as a Mao Tse Tung wannabe) or the evil they know. Sanders won't win.

Trump in 2016 is not Trump in 2020, and his base has shrunk in the interim, not grown. Therefore, if every single Trump voter from 2016 voted for Trump again, and every single Hillary voter from 2016 votes for Sanders, Sanders still wins because the progressives and former non-voters push him over the edge. There's no escaping this without suggesting Hillary voters changing their minds and voting for Trump, which is an odd hill for your point to die on.

And all of this, even if Sanders does win, he won't be able to advance his platform as Congress passes the bills. And do you honestly think UHC could survive SCOTUS at this time?

You don't get it. He isn't counting on Congress to come quietly, he's counting on a resurgent left wing of mobilized, working-class people to apply pressure from below to extract concessions from their representatives. That's what all of this has been about from day 1, and the most important difference between him and Warren (who apparently thinks Congress will just accept her plans after a polite session of rational debate). It's why he plans on being "organizer-in-chief", using the bully pulpit to remind the majority of people that they have power when they band together. All around the world, as we speak, this is being demonstrated before our eyes in Haiti, Ecuador, Chile, Catalonia, and elsewhere. It was demonstrated in Puerto Rico, in France, and in this country with the massive teachers' strike that is still ongoing.

Bernie is about movement politics, not parliamentarian politics, and his is the only strategy that has ever changed society on a fundamental level anywhere. When that scenario is on the table, it attracts the scorn of conservatives like yourself and Harry. I'm not using that term in the idiosyncratic American sense, but as what it really means: opposed to any disruption of the status quo driven by popular mobilization of the poor and working class. And when such an obvious movement picks up the momentum that it has, throwing rocks from the outside by whining about rich independents, Trump voters, and electability instead of adding your voice is opposition to that movement, plain and simple.

 

[Politesse]

Tim Ryan ends presidential campaign - CNNPolitics

If you'd never heard of him, don't feel surprised. His candidacy never went anywhere.


I agree.

I'm constantly depressed by the fact that both Kamala's and Pete's parents were literally Marxist scholars, and their offspring turned out to be the definition of bourgeois (or in Kamala's case, what Marx would call a "class traitor").

Any evidence of their parents being something like Marxist scholars? I'm not saying that they weren't, only that I'd like to see the evidence.

Sure, here's an article about Donald Harris, who is more post-Keynsian currently but was a radical during the Vietnam era.

And Joseph A. Buttigieg was a renowned translator of the works of Antonio Gramsci, the most notable Italian Marxist.

Conservatives think everyone who is not them is a Marxist.

 

[PyramidHead]

Sure, here's an article about Donald Harris, who is more post-Keynsian currently but was a radical during the Vietnam era.

And Joseph A. Buttigieg was a renowned translator of the works of Antonio Gramsci, the most notable Italian Marxist.

Conservatives think everyone who is not them is a Marxist.

Yeah, and to be fair, by "Marxist scholar" I mean "scholar of Marxism", as neither are really Marxist themselves anymore.