Democrats 2020

[Trausti]

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Where is the example Republicans' capitalist utopia?
It pisses off the 'tards, but at least the Dems have an example of a socialist success.

Corporatism isn't capitalism. The Republicans aren't in favor of capitalism. Never were. All the way back to the party that came before the party that came before the Republicans. Ever since Alexander Hamilton they favored using the government to help out businesses. His ideas carried through the Federalist Party to the Whig Party to the Republican Party. I give them points for consistency, then remove those points because the idea they are consistent about isn't a good idea.

 

[blastula]

Iowa's first major poll.

 

[RavenSky]

The Democrats are doing everything in their power to repudiate socialism, even as it receives widespread support among their base. Hickenlooper and Delaney both got loudly booed in California for attacking socialism and Medicare for All at the state Democratic convention. Hey, maybe that's just California. But in the 2016 primaries, Sanders won Michigan, Minnesota, Kansas, Nebraska, Wisconsin, and Indiana. He wasn't shy about calling himself a socialist then and he isn't now. The flyover states have a generally favorable opinion--sometimes moreso than the coastal states--of stuff like guaranteed federal jobs programs, aggressive action on climate change, breaking up large banks, and other socialist-leaning policies. And there's only a handful of policies that are broadly supported by a majority of both Democrats AND Republicans, but among them is the proposed 15% cap on payday loan interest rates and at least the protection (if not increase) of spending on Medicaid.

I wouldn't say "Democrats are..."

As you noted, Hickenlooper and Delaney did get loudly booed. Conversely, Democrats elected AOC and others.

I'm not sure that I'd characterize AOC as a socialist. I've been reading her endless thread in the Political Discussions thread. She's more of an old fashioned democrat that wants a very broad and large safety net. She's been quoted over and over as favoring more of a "Nordic Model" where the state helps provide a high level of security for its citizens. But it's paid for by there very capitalistic free market companies. The Nordic countries greatly enforce property rights, free trade, little regulation on private sector, high level of union membership, and etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

I actually like AOC. Clearly the republicans are terrified of her and desperately trying to brand her as a "Socialist"!

Actually I agree with you on the above, and all those who have noted that Republicans (and some Democrats) are misusing the term "socialism" and labeling every humane social-net policy as "socialism" like it is some sort of scary boogeyman

 

[Harry Bosch]

Where is the example Republicans' capitalist utopia?
It pisses off the 'tards, but at least the Dems have an example of a socialist success.

Corporatism isn't capitalism. The Republicans aren't in favor of capitalism. Never were. All the way back to the party that came before the party that came before the Republicans. Ever since Alexander Hamilton they favored using the government to help out businesses. His ideas carried through the Federalist Party to the Whig Party to the Republican Party. I give them points for consistency, then remove those points because the idea they are consistent about isn't a good idea.

Capitalism is simply the belief that the assets that allow for trade and industry should be controlled by private individuals for profit. Not sure why government helping out businesses is anti-capitalism?

 

[Derec]

Iowa's first major poll.

View attachment 21886

Dead heat for second place. If the Iowa caucuses were held tomorrow, it would be very exciting to watch how it unfolds. Especially since all three are teetering on falling under the 15% hurdle to get any delegates.

 

[Derec]

Jo≡ Bid≡n is just trying to capture the "Come back, Barack" vote.

 

[PyramidHead]

Where is the example Republicans' capitalist utopia?
It pisses off the 'tards, but at least the Dems have an example of a socialist success.

Corporatism isn't capitalism. The Republicans aren't in favor of capitalism. Never were. All the way back to the party that came before the party that came before the Republicans. Ever since Alexander Hamilton they favored using the government to help out businesses. His ideas carried through the Federalist Party to the Whig Party to the Republican Party. I give them points for consistency, then remove those points because the idea they are consistent about isn't a good idea.

Capitalism is simply the belief that the assets that allow for trade and industry should be controlled by private individuals for profit. Not sure why government helping out businesses is anti-capitalism?

Wow, that's... actually accurate. I'm impressed! I would emphasize commodity production generally over trade and industry, but that's a solid take.

 

[southernhybrid]

Can any of the Democratic candidates bridge the horrible divide that is currently going on in the US?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/state-legislatures-partisan-polarized.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

When J.B. Pritzker took over as the governor of Illinois this year, Democratic lawmakers, who had spent four years at an impasse with his Republican predecessor, vowed that their party’s new grip on the State Capitol would bring immediate change.

The pace has been startling. In recent months, Illinois legislators have moved sharply to the left, deeming abortion a fundamental right for women no matter what the Supreme Court might decide, raising the minimum wage, taking steps to legalize recreational marijuana and introducing a graduated income tax.

Some 700 miles to the south, the Alabama State Capitol, dominated by Republicans, has raced in the opposite direction.

Alabama lawmakers voted during this term to ban most abortions. They eliminated marriage licenses, so that probate judges opposed to same-sex marriage would not have to sign marriage certificates. And they approved requiring sex offenders who commit crimes involving children to undergo chemical castration at their own expense.

This year was always poised to be contentious in statehouses. Across the nation, nearly 1,700 new lawmakers won seats in last fall’s elections. The vast majority of the newcomers were Democrats, who won control of six new legislative chambers, meaning that they now dominate both chambers in 18 states. But Republicans continue to control the majority of state legislatures, with 29.

If the Democrats are going to be able to defeat Trump. they must have a candidate who can win in some swing states or a couple of purple states that are gradually turning blue. Georgia could be in play, as well as Arizona, but if the candidate is perceived as too far left, I highly doubt she/he will win. If you live in a very liberal bubble, you may not see how difficult it will be to elect what is now being called progressive, but if you live in a more moderate of conservative state, you realize it's not going to be easy to replace Trump.

At this point, defeating Trump is all I really care about. I know that any of the Dems will be far better than Trump, but I've known too many people who won't vote for the candidate if he or she doesn't match their ideals. That goes for people both far left, center left of left of center. I will vote for whoever wins the primaries. I've voted for people who I didn't like throughout my life. The biggest disappointment of my voting life, was when McGovern lost in a landslide to Nixon. People must realize there are only a handful of states where a very progressive candidate could likely win and unfortunately, we have the electoral college to deal with, so I'm extremely worried that we may be looking at a second term for Trump.

42% of people approve of Trump, but lots of people will vote for him if they disapprove of the Democratic candidate even more. Like I said, I've voted for plenty people who I really didn't like, and people will vote for Trump, even if they don't like him or his policies, if they perceive the other candidate as being worse.

Polls don't mean that much, if they are based on the total popular vote. We have to deal with the electoral college, so don't tell me that 62% of all women won't vote for Trump. Tell me where those 62% of women live. If half of them live in the bluest states, that poll means nothing.

 

[Elixir]

Where is the example Republicans' capitalist utopia?
It pisses off the 'tards, but at least the Dems have an example of a socialist success.

Corporatism isn't capitalism. The Republicans aren't in favor of capitalism. Never were. All the way back to the party that came before the party that came before the Republicans. Ever since Alexander Hamilton they favored using the government to help out businesses. His ideas carried through the Federalist Party to the Whig Party to the Republican Party. I give them points for consistency, then remove those points because the idea they are consistent about isn't a good idea.

Capitalism is simply the belief that the assets that allow for trade and industry should be controlled by private individuals for profit. Not sure why government helping out businesses is anti-capitalism?

Adding to the mystery... how can Norway be a "capitalist" country when its main source of income is 2/3 owned and run by its government?

 

[PyramidHead]

Capitalism is simply the belief that the assets that allow for trade and industry should be controlled by private individuals for profit. Not sure why government helping out businesses is anti-capitalism?

Adding to the mystery... how can Norway be a "capitalist" country when its main source of income is 2/3 owned and run by its government?

The dollar amounts conceal the actual distribution of work, though. To say that a huge chunk of their income stream (namely oil) is a government enterprise doesn't change the fact that most people living in Norway don't work for the government, as far as I know. Even if they did, that wouldn't automatically make the situation socialism, as governments can be like big enterprises, operating in a global economy to generate profit just like a private multinational corporation would, and distributing their gains in the same lopsided and undemocratic way.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

At least we all agree the Republicans aren't capitalist.

 

[Elixir]

At least we all agree the Republicans aren't capitalist.

Very true, when we see them saying Norway is a capitalist country...

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

From Derec's link:

The following is a list of parties which are democratic socialist or partly democratic socialist currently having representation in the legislature of their country.
...
PAIS Alliance¹, Ecuador
...
Labour Party¹, UK
...
Plaid Cymru¹, Wales
...
New Democratic Party¹, Canada
...
Socialist Party¹, Netherlands
...
Socialist Party¹, Serbia
...
A Just Russia¹, Russia
...
Party of Socialists and Democrats¹, San Marino
...
Free and Equal¹, Italy
...
Labourists – Labour Party¹, Croatia
...
^1 Parties which are also social democratic.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Capitalism is simply the belief that the assets that allow for trade and industry should be controlled by private individuals for profit. Not sure why government helping out businesses is anti-capitalism?

Adding to the mystery... how can Norway be a "capitalist" country when its main source of income is 2/3 owned and run by its government?

As soon as there is any kind of failure in the Norwegian economy we will hear how it is socialist...along with some hyperbole about the problems. Otherwise, it's "capitalist."

 

[PyramidHead]

At least we all agree the Republicans aren't capitalist.

lol No we don't. That's libel

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Can any of the Democratic candidates bridge the horrible divide that is currently going on in the US?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/state-legislatures-partisan-polarized.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

When J.B. Pritzker took over as the governor of Illinois this year, Democratic lawmakers, who had spent four years at an impasse with his Republican predecessor, vowed that their party’s new grip on the State Capitol would bring immediate change.

The pace has been startling. In recent months, Illinois legislators have moved sharply to the left, deeming abortion a fundamental right for women no matter what the Supreme Court might decide, raising the minimum wage, taking steps to legalize recreational marijuana and introducing a graduated income tax.

Some 700 miles to the south, the Alabama State Capitol, dominated by Republicans, has raced in the opposite direction.

Alabama lawmakers voted during this term to ban most abortions. They eliminated marriage licenses, so that probate judges opposed to same-sex marriage would not have to sign marriage certificates. And they approved requiring sex offenders who commit crimes involving children to undergo chemical castration at their own expense.

This year was always poised to be contentious in statehouses. Across the nation, nearly 1,700 new lawmakers won seats in last fall’s elections. The vast majority of the newcomers were Democrats, who won control of six new legislative chambers, meaning that they now dominate both chambers in 18 states. But Republicans continue to control the majority of state legislatures, with 29.

If the Democrats are going to be able to defeat Trump. they must have a candidate who can win in some swing states or a couple of purple states that are gradually turning blue. Georgia could be in play, as well as Arizona, but if the candidate is perceived as too far left, I highly doubt she/he will win. If you live in a very liberal bubble, you may not see how difficult it will be to elect what is now being called progressive, but if you live in a more moderate of conservative state, you realize it's not going to be easy to replace Trump.

At this point, defeating Trump is all I really care about. I know that any of the Dems will be far better than Trump, but I've known too many people who won't vote for the candidate if he or she doesn't match their ideals. That goes for people both far left, center left of left of center. I will vote for whoever wins the primaries. I've voted for people who I didn't like throughout my life. The biggest disappointment of my voting life, was when McGovern lost in a landslide to Nixon. People must realize there are only a handful of states where a very progressive candidate could likely win and unfortunately, we have the electoral college to deal with, so I'm extremely worried that we may be looking at a second term for Trump.

42% of people approve of Trump, but lots of people will vote for him if they disapprove of the Democratic candidate even more. Like I said, I've voted for plenty people who I really didn't like, and people will vote for Trump, even if they don't like him or his policies, if they perceive the other candidate as being worse.

Polls don't mean that much, if they are based on the total popular vote. We have to deal with the electoral college, so don't tell me that 62% of all women won't vote for Trump. Tell me where those 62% of women live. If half of them live in the bluest states, that poll means nothing.

That post was intelligent and well reasoned. What are you doing here?

 

[blastula]

Biden leads Trump by 'landslide proportions' in new national poll | TheHill

A bit hyperbolic headline, but what's interesting is that there are so few undecideds in the results no matter who he's against. Everyone has made up their mind about the general.

In a first look at head-to-head 2020 presidential matchups nationwide, several Democratic challengers lead President Donald Trump, with former Vice President Joseph Biden ahead 53 - 40 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today.

In other matchups, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University National Poll finds:

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders over President Trump 51 - 42 percent;

California Sen. Kamala Harris ahead of Trump 49 - 41 percent;

Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren tops Trump 49 - 42 percent;

South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg edges Trump 47 - 42 percent;

New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker by a nose over Trump 47 - 42 percent.

 

[angelo]

I'm not sure that I'd characterize AOC as a socialist. I've been reading her endless thread in the Political Discussions thread. She's more of an old fashioned democrat that wants a very broad and large safety net. She's been quoted over and over as favoring more of a "Nordic Model" where the state helps provide a high level of security for its citizens. But it's paid for by there very capitalistic free market companies. The Nordic countries greatly enforce property rights, free trade, little regulation on private sector, high level of union membership, and etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

I actually like AOC. Clearly the republicans are terrified of her and desperately trying to brand her as a "Socialist"!

Actually I agree with you on the above, and all those who have noted that Republicans (and some Democrats) are misusing the term "socialism" and labeling every humane social-net policy as "socialism" like it is some sort of scary boogeyman

There's socialism and then there's socialism. True Socialism usually means big taxing governments and a much bigger bureaucracy and throwing taxpayers money away like wedding guests throw confetti at a bride and groom. In some cases it leads to a Greece or worse, a Venezuela.

Capitalism usually means risk taking, hard work and reward for effort.

 

[PyramidHead]

I'm not sure that I'd characterize AOC as a socialist. I've been reading her endless thread in the Political Discussions thread. She's more of an old fashioned democrat that wants a very broad and large safety net. She's been quoted over and over as favoring more of a "Nordic Model" where the state helps provide a high level of security for its citizens. But it's paid for by there very capitalistic free market companies. The Nordic countries greatly enforce property rights, free trade, little regulation on private sector, high level of union membership, and etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

I actually like AOC. Clearly the republicans are terrified of her and desperately trying to brand her as a "Socialist"!

Actually I agree with you on the above, and all those who have noted that Republicans (and some Democrats) are misusing the term "socialism" and labeling every humane social-net policy as "socialism" like it is some sort of scary boogeyman

There's socialism and then there's socialism. True Socialism usually means big taxing governments and a much bigger bureaucracy and throwing taxpayers money away like wedding guests throw confetti at a bride and groom. In some cases it leads to a Greece or worse, a Venezuela.

Capitalism usually means risk taking, hard work and reward for effort.