Derail from Feminist Gamer: Catcalling on the Streets

[dx713]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.
Have that happen often enough, and a simple male "hello" is going to feel like harassment, simply because the link towards unprovoked greeting and being unsafe has been made in her mind. Too bad if that male happened to just want to be nice, and was ready to stop there.

Males don't have that reaction, and can have trouble understanding it, because we live in a society where males are supposed to be the party initiating contact, so the occurence of women not respecting their boundaries isn't often enough to make them feel unsafe when it happens.
But rejecting how women feel and complaining it's offensive to males isn't going to solve the problem. Making them feel safe will, and that starts by erring on the side of caution and taking seriously every sign that a woman in a public space doesn't want interaction.

 

[Sabine Grant]

There's an interesting saying I heard recently, from an older female, that goes, "The only thing worse than a woman being sexually objectified is when she stops being sexually objectified."

I am an older female, 58 years old. She is not speaking on my behalf. However, it would not surprise me if that older female is culturally conditioned to interpret as "sexual objectification" any type of male communication or interaction with her which she has not approved of. Further, a female has to be very insecure to think that her sense of self validation as a human being would be dependent on whether men are giving her any attention signifying "I find you physically attractive".

I have never felt better in my life at my closing in on the Golden Years. I know who I am and I like very much who I am. I value my own person to where the absence of men conveying in any way an interest in me does not make me doubt or question my value.

What happens with women of my age and with a mental and emotional construct such as mine is that we know that when a male shows interest in us, it is not based on the very superficial factor of "being physically attracted". It is usually due to a man valuing how our mind works and what type of personality or character we display and demonstrate. We are recognized as a "keeper" versus a potential one night stand or a woman who will turn out to be a pain in the ass, nagging and demanding and placing unreasonable expectations on their male partner. So, non. That aging woman cannot speak on my behalf.

 

[Derec]

First we need a good definition of "sexual objectification". I do not think there is an universally agreed upon one.

Also, sometimes women think they are being sexually objectified (under any definition) when they aren't really.

 

[Sabine Grant]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.
Have that happen often enough, and a simple male "hello" is going to feel like harassment, simply because the link towards unprovoked greeting and being unsafe has been made in her mind. Too bad if that male happened to just want to be nice, and was ready to stop there.

Males don't have that reaction, and can have trouble understanding it, because we live in a society where males are supposed to be the party initiating contact, so the occurence of women not respecting their boundaries isn't often enough to make them feel unsafe when it happens.
But rejecting how women feel and complaining it's offensive to males isn't going to solve the problem. Making them feel safe will, and that starts by erring on the side of caution and taking seriously every sign that a woman in a public space doesn't want interaction.

Very true, DX. And that takes us back to how boys are going to be raised. If raised in a family environment where female relatives are not acknowledged as having the right to set boundaries or be treated with respect, chances are this boy will not grow up as an adult who will be cautious about not stepping over boundaries.

My husband ,as I was sharing with him the content of this discussion, remarked that he could not understand why some guys will engage in catcalling. He qualified it as juvenile and disrespectful while pointing to males doing it as embarrassing themselves. He feels that such males would most probably not do it if their mother or father was around or their boss or someone whose respect of their person is important to them.

 

[Toni]

Got you.

How did you get anybody? What is the problem in expressing interest in wanting to have sex with someone if you are polite and courteous about it?

I'm trying to figure out how it can be considered to be 'police and courteous' to express interest in wanting to have sex with someone you don't know and who is merely passing by on the street.

Although phrasing it as 'wanting to have sex' is a more polite form of what is really being expressed.

 

[Sabine Grant]

How did you get anybody? What is the problem in expressing interest in wanting to have sex with someone if you are polite and courteous about it?

I'm trying to figure out how it can be considered to be 'police and courteous' to express interest in wanting to have sex with someone you don't know and who is merely passing by on the street.

Although phrasing it as 'wanting to have sex' is a more polite form of what is really being expressed.

I second your question, Toni. I have to say that when some years ago, a US Navy sailor tossed at me " Hey baby, you wanna come and sit on my face", I did not find that "polite and courteous" at all. But I administered to him a taste of my own medicine by replying : "If I wanted to sit on anyone's face, it would not be yours". And yes, it would be correct for you to envision that he turned red and wished he could have disappeared in a mouse hole somewhere.

Considering this thread was specifically created as a derail addressing catcalling, I am not sure why anyone would confuse catcalling for being a "polite and courteous" way of communicating " I want to have sex with you" to strangers passing by in any public space.

 

[dismal]

Well, if we keep making progress legalizing drugs we're going to need some way to keep blacks and Hispanics in regular contact with police and the justice system.[/conservoprogressive]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm trying to figure out how it can be considered to be 'police and courteous' to express interest in wanting to have sex with someone you don't know and who is merely passing by on the street.

Although phrasing it as 'wanting to have sex' is a more polite form of what is really being expressed.

I second your question, Toni. I have to say that when some years ago, a US Navy sailor tossed at me " Hey baby, you wanna come and sit on my face", I did not find that "polite and courteous" at all. But I administered to him a taste of my own medicine by replying : "If I wanted to sit on anyone's face, it would not be yours". And yes, it would be correct for you to envision that he turned red and wished he could have disappeared in a mouse hole somewhere.

Considering this thread was specifically created as a derail addressing catcalling, I am not sure why anyone would confuse catcalling for being a "polite and courteous" way of communicating " I want to have sex with you" to strangers passing by in any public space.

Who exactly are you having a conversation with about this? As I've said, it's not me.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I second your question, Toni. I have to say that when some years ago, a US Navy sailor tossed at me " Hey baby, you wanna come and sit on my face", I did not find that "polite and courteous" at all. But I administered to him a taste of my own medicine by replying : "If I wanted to sit on anyone's face, it would not be yours". And yes, it would be correct for you to envision that he turned red and wished he could have disappeared in a mouse hole somewhere.

Considering this thread was specifically created as a derail addressing catcalling, I am not sure why anyone would confuse catcalling for being a "polite and courteous" way of communicating " I want to have sex with you" to strangers passing by in any public space.

Who exactly are you having a conversation with about this? As I've said, it's not me.

I am as confused as you are Tom! Juma launched into a deviation from what catcalling is all about. You then fueled his deviation with your question. Question where Toni and I are wondering why you would find it "polite and courteous" to "ask someone to have sex" within the context of the OP guided topic.

Maybe it is time to just ignore Juma's babbling and return to the specific situations implied under the term "catcalling".

 

[ksen]

best solution to ^^

ban everybody

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I am as confused as you are Tom! Juma launched into a deviation from what catcalling is all about. You then fueled his deviation with your question. Question where Toni and I are wondering why you would find it "polite and courteous" to "ask someone to have sex" within the context of the OP guided topic.

Right. Is there any instance where there'd be an answer where you'd assume there'd be any answer beyond "I wouldn't"?

 

[Sabine Grant]

I am as confused as you are Tom! Juma launched into a deviation from what catcalling is all about. You then fueled his deviation with your question. Question where Toni and I are wondering why you would find it "polite and courteous" to "ask someone to have sex" within the context of the OP guided topic.

Right. Is there any instance where there'd be an answer where you'd assume there'd be any answer beyond "I wouldn't"?

Non. I do not perceive you as someone who would condone catcalling as a way to ask someone if they want to have sex as being "polite and courteous". An ambiguity though is when Juma (still going on with his deviation) stated :

"Just take a look for a few seconds to admire the beauty"?

This is exactly the problem: you dont realize that eyeing someone out also is a signal that you are interested. That your body language are saying: i wanna fuck you.

It appears in your further reply that what he described above is interpreted by you as a "polite and courteous way" to ask someone if they want to have sex with you. "eyeing someone out" if not a catcall certainly falls under the category of unwanted attention which conveys sexual interest. And falling under the circumstance ( as I understand Juma presented it) of a stranger "eyeing out" a female stranger. If the verbal communication or sound factor is missing, the factor of unwanted attention conveying sexual interest by a stranger male to a stranger female is still present. Can you explain why your question to him in ,view of what he had described and I quoted above, contained the qualification of "polite and courteous" way to ask someone if they want to have sex with you?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No, I'm not going to further derail the derail with my own derail.

 

[ksen]

chicken

 

[Tom Sawyer]

chicken

I just whistled inappropriately at you while making gratuitous sexual comments.

Consider this a harsh life lesson that you needed to learn.

 

[ksen]

That's fair since I've been stare-raping you since at least post #28.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's fair since I've been stare-raping you since at least post #28.

Hey, it ain't stare-rape if I like it, baby.

 

[ksen]

 

[ZiprHead]

This thread is getting me hot.

 

[credoconsolans]

To guys who have objectified a woman they find pretty passing in the street and lack the self-control and find they must say something to her, and wonder why a compliment or comment on the weather can seem threatening or harassing to such a woman...

Guys, if she's pretty to you, she's probably pretty to a bunch of other guys who also can't hold their tongues and so far, like the video, she's already heard it from a dozen or more guys in the street by the time you see her.

Look at movie stars. No matter how loving or well-intentioned their fan-base is, after a while, all the staring and intense focus is threatening.

Staring is a threatening act, why do you're taught as a child not to stare?

So for the men hoping to get an attractive woman to notice them in the street?

One guy, passing in the street, looked me in the eye and gave me a sweet smile.

No cat calls, no comments, no pickup lines.